To all the Europeans and Aussie's on this forum...
- Thread starter Arsen
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Its not inhumane at all. It is a large hunting caliber.jdog345 said:
It is also a much better death than them starving them to death.
quote="Goatlemon" post="18.83897.1192687"]
I want you to call the police and an ambulance, keep a safe distance away and in no way aggravate or scare the criminal.Force Feedback Codpiece said:
It's just a wallet; it's not worth someone dying over.
And do you mind explaining why this was directed at me? I'm not the only person here against guns.[/quote]
I wouldnt call the police. I would call the morgue. Cause that is where you would be going. Slits to the throat are not an easy thing to handle.
Do you mind if I sub myself into this situation?Force Feedback Codpiece said:
Firstly, lets remember the guy is holding a knife to my throat and making me bleed.
The last thing I want you to do is whip out your concealed handgun and shout "DROP THE KNIFE ************!!!!" You know why? Cause there is a guy holding a knife so close that its cut me. Who knows what the sudden shock of seeing a gun would make him do? He might just flinch and volunatrily give me a colombian neck-tie. He might flip out and just slice me up for hell of it.
Maybe he's a pretty switched on guy, so he doesn't panic. Instead, he now uses me as bargaining chip to get away from you or make you put your gun down. Still not looking good for me.
The second last thing I want you to do is whip out your concealed weapon and take a few pot shots without warning him. Are you a good shot? You better be, because you are taking my life into your hands. Its dark and the guy is holding knife to my throat, you are 20m away. You better be a damn good shot. But even if you are, theres always the chance he'll stumble and move me into your line of fire, or you'll miss altogether and just alert him to your presence.
Its entirely possible he'll just see the gun, back away, drop the knife and apologize then hand himself in to the cops. Its possible that you'll put a bullet through his head and save the day. But as I've already said, there is so much risk involved that I really doubt its worth it. I'd rather hand over my wallet and hope you've called Emergency Services, and then come to my aid after the guy runs. I'll be shocked, $50 or so, maybe more down, scared shitless and bleeding, but at least I'll be alive.
Use a gun for hunting, use it for sport or recreation, carry it for your own protection if you feel really need it, but don't try and argue that guns turn innocent bystanders into superheroes and make criminals powerless.
Arsen said:
Most criminals in the United States dont obtain firearms legally. Gun crimes are bad in our country because of our culture and sub-cultures. Being a "rebel" here is pretty popular, and that are millions upon millions of copycats. Americans buy guns not because they like violence, but because they need to protect themselves against other Americans. We are still pretty divided and xenophobic culturely, as we still label people by their country or continent of origin (even though its probably been more the 4 or 5 generations since they imigrated here). What do you call people from the UK who happen to have a dark skin color? You call them British, not African British.
Thank you. That's probably one of the best viewpoints I've seen while browsing this thread.Armitage Shanks said:
If the hypothetical mugger was going to kill me he would've just stabbed me in the back and taken my wallet from my corpse. If he is holding me at knife point he probably doesn't want to resort to murder if he doesn't have to. Some wanna be vigilante on the other hand may make him decide he needs to resort to it.mosinmatt said:
Let me put it another way; if I'm a hostage the last thing I want is some random wanna be vigilante with no law enforcement experience and no training in hostage situations making things worse for me!
I don't care if you have a gun or not, if you're not trained to deal with criminals and hostage situations then stay away and don't antagonise the nutcase.
As another poster so beautifully put it; guns don't make you a superhero. If you can't understand that you're just as much of a risk to the innocent victim's life as the nut holding the knife.
I completely agree. What's also important is that when a mugger, burgler or robber knows that a lot of civilians own weapons they will take less risks and use there own firearms much faster. The only people who should be able to carry guns are policeman since they are trained how to handle them and only use them as a last resort to save another person's life.Goatlemon said:
Like i have been saying. it is the gangbanger lifestyle. They want to get in trouble with the law. They WANT to hurt people.Helnurath said:
Jail isn't a threat to them. But you know what is? A bullet. You pull a gun, and most gangbangers will shit themselves.
When flordia passed its CCW laws, many many many people applied and acquired them. Do you know what happened to crime? It nose dived. The stats are in the link i have posted multiple times.
Also, Americans don't carry to protect themselves from other Americans, as many criminals are not American citizens. They are illegals. They carry to protect themselves, their family, and others from threats to their lives.
If wanting to protect my family the best way possible is wrong. Well I don't want to fucking be right.
I am one of those Floridians, and if you live in southern border states then yes, most of the criminals are illegal aliens (Dont believe me? watch the news stations from a border town in Texas), but for northern states, like the one I am originally from (Kansas) other Americans still pose the biggest threat.mosinmatt said:
Because you're the most radical anti-gun person in this thread, and because you said you were against guns being used for self-defense. So I was very curious what you would want me to do if I had a concealed handgun.Goatlemon said:
So you want me to call the police and stay far away. And not harm or aggrave the criminal.
Two things can be said about that:
1.) You're assuming that the criminal is a relatively nice guy. Why should I leave you to the mercy of the criminal, who might just slash your throat after you give him your wallet?
2.) The police are NOT there to protect you. What if after 10 minutes, the police still haven't arrived? Happens all the time!
Why do you want to render people completely defenseless? Why do you want criminals to be able to do whatever they want?
Aaand... I'm just gonna roll right on in here and defend an argument that isn't related to me...
1)FFC has no gun, the mugger gets your wallet, you then have a 50/50 chance of living until the ambulance arrives. Even then, you might not make it once you get to hospital.
2)FFC has no gun, the mugger sees him and slits your throat. GAME OVER
3)FFC has a gun, he takes a potshot at you/mugger. He hits you both for 47 damage. You both die. GAME OVER
4)FFC has a gun, he shouts a warning. The mugger slits your throat, leaving FFC with an open shot. GAME OVER, but you took him with you.
5)FFC has a gun, he shouts a warning. The mugger is not prepared for murder, so drops the knife and gives up.
So out of the bunch:
Without a gun- criminal gets away with your wallet 100% of the time, surviving 100% of the time by either killing you or running. Whatever the case, he gets away with the crime.
With a gun- he gets your wallet 0% of the time, with a 66% chance of being killed. I know where my money would go in that situation.
So from here, I can see a few scenariosGoatlemon said:
1)FFC has no gun, the mugger gets your wallet, you then have a 50/50 chance of living until the ambulance arrives. Even then, you might not make it once you get to hospital.
2)FFC has no gun, the mugger sees him and slits your throat. GAME OVER
3)FFC has a gun, he takes a potshot at you/mugger. He hits you both for 47 damage. You both die. GAME OVER
4)FFC has a gun, he shouts a warning. The mugger slits your throat, leaving FFC with an open shot. GAME OVER, but you took him with you.
5)FFC has a gun, he shouts a warning. The mugger is not prepared for murder, so drops the knife and gives up.
So out of the bunch:
Without a gun- criminal gets away with your wallet 100% of the time, surviving 100% of the time by either killing you or running. Whatever the case, he gets away with the crime.
With a gun- he gets your wallet 0% of the time, with a 66% chance of being killed. I know where my money would go in that situation.
Who said he had no experience? For all you know he is an off duty police marksman or a negotiator. Actually, for all the *attacker* knows, he's the best marksman ever to live. For that matter, FFC could be carrying a REPLICA firearm, one which is incapable of firing water, let alone a bullet. So long as the attacker has the slightest feeling that you *might* pull the trigger, the gun is doing it's job (to put it crudely- crowd control).Goatlemon said:
As are you every time you get in your car, every time you pick up a kitchen knife to cut vegetables. Guns are not dangerous, people who do not know what they are doing with a gun are dangerousGoatlemon said:
Just to interject, no-ones assuming the criminal is a nice guy. The knife to the throat kind of negates that as a plausible option. But chances are the mugger is aiming to commit a robbery rather than a murder, hence he hasn't already just stabbed his victim and run. If all goes to plan for that criminal he gets a wallet and no one dies, Why add murder to a charge of robbery if you don't have to? But if some vigilante comes running a them with a gun, Team America style, you've very much reduced the options for Goatlemon getting out of this scenario in one piece, because now that criminal is fighting for his life, and is now more panicky and scared at the sight of a gun. Before he was just trying to get a wallet.Force Feedback Codpiece said:
And here's an idea, guns or no, people are going to commit and fall victim to crime. It happens in countries both with and without guns, so the argument that guns prevent crime is moot. Here's an idea, why don't we treat crime as a social problem and attempt to prevent it happening at all, rather than giving everyone a gun and turning a walk down the street into a death match?
The difference of course being cars and kitchen knives aren't deigned to kill people, it's not their purpose, but a result of the misapplication of those things. The sole purpose of a guns is to kill things. Cars & Knives etc, perform useful non-lethal functions for people when correctly applied. Again, guns are designed to provide people with the ability to kill things. You may not use them for that purpose, but for the most part, that what they are designed for. It is their primary function.wordsmith said:
This bullshit again? Last I checked, knives WERE meant to kill people.Ploppy said:
Guns sold to people other than the military and police are NOT meant to kill people. They are meant to defend your life, and for sport (yes, you can use ARs and AKs for sport and hunting)
In fact, more people die in auto accidents, than from gun accidents. I guess we should ban cars too!
Except the given example of of 'kitchen knives' Which are designed to, y'know, cut and prepare food. But the point is, knives have other, useful applications. Guns not no much, other than the aforementioned killing people. And why would you need to use an assault rifle in hunting exactly? And regardless of how you intend to use a gun, it's designed as a device to kill things. It just is. I mean, I presume by 'defend your life' you mean by killing / threatening to kill someone else, right?mosinmatt said:
Are you dense, or just stupid? Knives are meant to kill people. That is what they have been used for for centuries.Ploppy said:
Did I say assault rifle? NO! You thick headed dunce. I said AR. Not an assault rifle.
The only gun of mine that probably has ever killed anything is the old WWII Mosin Nagant.
yet another ignorant dunce that thinks scary things should be banned.
You said AK's too, actually. I'm presuming you meant the AK-47 or one of it's variations? Is that no longer classed as an assault rifle? Also, can we keep it civil please? Just because we disagree is no need to start rattling off pointless, petty insults.mosinmatt said:
And you've again, missed my point, which was that although, yes, knives are used to kill people, unlike guns it is not their only primary function, they have other applications which are actually useful for people and society. Knives can be misused to kill or harm people, but a gun performs no other useful function. [and i'm talking about day to day kitchen knives rather than the huge military knives you can buy, which I see as just a pointless for civilian ownership as guns.] Besides, you have to concede that it's much easier to kill someone with a gun than a knife.
I didn't say you wanted to kill someone, nor that every gun ever made has killed something, I said that is their function. And that's just a fact. Regardless of how you personally use yours, as machines that is what they were designed to do. Just out of curiosity, if your gun are only for display, have they been deactivated?
And no, I don't think 'everything scary should be banned', but rather 'that which serves no purpose other than killing has no place in civilian hands.'
Right, because criminals who use guns are going to obey gun laws. If I were a criminal I would move to places where people weren't "allowed" to own guns-- easy pickings!Vinculi said:
I don't own a gun myself, although because I live in a large city with its share of crime I have considered getting one to protect myself.
Yes, AK variants. Like a WASR, Saiga, etc. You know...ones that you can actually get here in America.Ploppy said:
Guns sold to American citizens are not meant to kill. They are meant for sporting, hunting, and defense. As I said before. Or is killing animals bad to you too? bbbaaww more.
...mosinmatt said:
Well, yes. I mean, for food, fine, but killing something just for the hell of it? But that's because I both oppose animal cruelty in general, and have value for life. So I just don't get hunting for fun. 'Congratulations, you killed a sentient life, who was defenceless against the advanced human technology you wielded. You must be proud.'
I do actually understand people fascination with guns, I share it to a degree, I just don't see the need for civilians to wield one.