To be happy, women must admit they are not "equal" to men

[Nickolai77]

see thease two things just don;t compute, those things " DIY, walk nearest the road, open doors" are such small trivial little things how the flying fuck could they improve ANYONES marrage? I get the distinct impression she's saying more women should be full time housewife's, what else would she be saying? stop and think before you put together that desk lest you destroy america? gender sterotypes (men do y! women do x!) are stupid, I mean I can accept that alot of peopel adhere to them...but the Idea that we should make a concious effort to adhere to them is quite frankly...well stupis

Well, in one of the video clips she does actually say she's all in favour of women having the freedom to not be houswives- she just believes that people need to respect traditional gender rolls more- i don't think that's necessarily a contradiction. Personally though, on paper at least I don't see how marriages where traditional gender rolls are adhered to are any stronger (or weaker) than non-traditional marriages where say the wives the breadwinner and the farther raises the kids. It would however be interesting to read about research done into this kind of area. Just because the number of married couples is falling doesn't suggest that it's because of non-traditional gender rolls being adopted.

Now, in my opinion i certainly agree that there's confusion surrounding gender rolls- some expectations have changed and some haven't. For instance, women go to university with the aim of advancing their careers as do men, but on nights out you'll rarely see women approaching men to chat them up, the expectation is still that the male makes the first moves. Could it be that women have cherry-picked gender norms that suit them (like wearing jeans and getting professional jobs)and left the harder tasks to men? Or does it reflect something on the nature side of the nature-nurture debate? Or a bit of both?

there was no univeral feminist comitee deciding how to manipulate the laws of society in their favor...aside from the fact that peoples Ideas of "how things should be" genderwise are as diverse as people themselves...some women are princesses, some are not very nice people, some are really nice people

I cant say why some things go and some things say they just do, I get annoyed everytime somone brings this up as though women are collectivly doing it on purpose.....seriously I open doors for others and I could pay for a meal on a date..I dont know what everyone elses problem is

I never meant to suggest there's some sort of feminist conspiracy here - i'm just talking about broad cultural trends. I don't think women sit down one day and go through a gender roll checklist to see which gender rolls they want to apply for!

. There's endless threads on the Escapist full of advice to young men telling them to be "confident"- and when you dissect that advice you begin to realise that it means taking on a lot of traditional masculine rolls- Be forward, assertive, dominant in conversation and impress women with your skills and talents.

its not so much that but more "no one is going to touch your dick because your a "nice guy", watch Anime all day and cry into your wai-fu pillow every night out of lonlyness..."

In terms of the "do not's" that's correct, but i was thinking more of the "do" side of things.

And if you glance over the covers of womens magazines, it's all about attracting males by making yourself thin, getting bigger breasts and that sort of thing. Is this simply cultural inertia or just a reminder from mother nature that we're animals just like the rest of fauna on Earth- with pre-programmed behavioral instincts and dispositions?

as I said before, I can accept that people might gravitate to gender roles (is it nature or nurture? who knows) but to activly encourage everyone to follow along is...again not somthing I agree with

Of course, but the trouble is that whatever the correct "answer" is there are serious political and social implications. However, in my view i don't think we'll ever get a straight answer, and our behaviours most likely explained by a complex combination of nature and nurture. People will probably still be debating this kind of thing in a centuries time and will just be as clueless as we are.

Off topic: Am i seriously the only one who knew the OP was joking?

 

[Piorn]

Let me just tell you guys a little story.
In my hometown, there was a woman who desperately wanted a baby girl. She had a baby boy, but wanted to raise him as a girl. She did the entire program, put him in dresses, wear pink, buy horse toys, you name it.
She didn't have a chance. From the day he could walk he played soccer, admired cars, tinkered with mechanics and did all the other "boy" stuff.
After 6 years, she finally gave up.

Men and women may be equal, but they're not the same.

 

[bananafishtoday]

I'm a bit torn on the matter really. I think the world would be a better place if gender norms largely went away- I'm perfectly happy with women doing manual work and leading others, and men working in care positions and taking on a greater role in child-rearing. However, in day to day life and especially in dating you seem to get glimpses of old gender norms enduring. There's endless threads on the Escapist full of advice to young men telling them to be "confident"- and when you dissect that advice you begin to realise that it means taking on a lot of traditional masculine rolls- Be forward, assertive, dominant in conversation and impress women with your skills and talents. And if you glance over the covers of womens magazines, it's all about attracting males by making yourself thin, getting bigger breasts and that sort of thing. Is this simply cultural inertia or just a reminder from mother nature that we're animals just like the rest of fauna on Earth- with pre-programmed behavioral instincts and dispositions?

Wrt dating specifically, it can be a self-perpetuating cycle if left unexamined. If men and women in general are taught and expected to fall into these roles (aggressive man pursues, passive woman attracts), then the optimal strategy for any particular man or woman is to do the same. I think it can be changed, though. (Ie, I'm on the "cultural inertia" side for the most part. Really, it's part of the timeless nature vs. nurture debate.)

I mean, there are plenty of men who say they wish women would approach them (this comes up constantly on male-heavy forums like this one), just like there are plenty of women who would prefer to approach men. (There are some men/women who do say "fuck it" and defy their assigned roles, but I'd say there are far more who wish to but don't.) Or, hell, just go to an "upscale" gay bar if you want to see plenty of average-looking white-collar folks who naturally settle into the role that is comfortable for them rather than the role that society assigns them.

Overall, the problem is societal expectations of group behavior hampering or interfering with individual behavior.

I think there's a lot of interesting debate to be had here, the trouble is that conversation about gender rolls is poisoned by the word "feminism", because a lot of people have such bias preconceptions of that word it colours any polite debate about the actual subject matter.

As for this, we should dispel the biased preconceptions rather than discard the word. Most people's notions of "feminism" are actually based on one side of a huge debate back in the 1980s. Feminism has said a lot since then, but people are too often turned off by the word to listen. The word has very important historical and political connotations, though.

 

[Erttheking]

Thank you vault, I had a theory that a woman could pull off the tux look. Thank you for confirming that.

 

[Vault101]

Let me just tell you guys a little story.
In my hometown, there was a woman who desperately wanted a baby girl. She had a baby boy, but wanted to raise him as a girl. She did the entire program, put him in dresses, wear pink, buy horse toys, you name it.
She didn't have a chance. From the day he could walk he played soccer, admired cars, tinkered with mechanics and did all the other "boy" stuff.
After 6 years, she finally gave up.

mabye you cant make somone a girl/boy by the things and toys they like? because those things are kind of superficial

[quote/]Men and women may be equal, but they're not the same.[/quote]
and I'm not disputing that, its just not everyone adheres to thease Ideas of what men/women should/shouldn't be

 

[cerebreturns]

The reason feminism doesn't work is because most women want new equality benefits but also want to keep traditional benefits.

I have never met a woman who at some point in time hasn't said "I'm a girl, it's harder for me", even macho butch, lesbian and crazy feminist ones.


I'm not saying all feminist are crazy, like any group what we see the most are the vocal/crazy ones, religion, politics and so on.

What I am saying however is that feminist can not go around claiming men are pigs (almost all do), men oppress women, women are suffering, and then turn around and claim at the same time that it's ok for women to do the same thing.


Stereotypes in TV & Movies is one of the best examples of how equality is not obtainable and how each side mostly cares about themselves.

If a woman is beat up in a movie is "risque", men are portrayed as dull brutes where as women are smart and caring, if a man loves a younger person it's considered sick and twisted, if a woman does then she is doing him a favor and is obviously just a caring person.


When feminist fight for true equality, not just getting better for themselves, I will support them.

But they never will, why? cause this is America. Yay capitalism. Yay personal achievement. Yay screw everyone else. Yay worship of sex money and pride.


And if that's what you are fighting for? If that's what you want to use your equality for? Then you are just a sick wannabe of the men who oppress you.

Love those who hate you. Forgive those who wrong you. Care for those who need you. Turn the other cheek.
These are all feminine aspects is our society. They are also christian beliefs (not practices sadly...). This is what feminist want to be against.

You want to be in the position of power and abuse it like the men do? Hell like the women do now too? Disgusting

 

[Alandoril]

Okay, having looked at the two videos in the OP's link, let's make a serious post here:

Firstly, Suzanne Venker is basically arguing that men and women need to respect traditional gender rolls more- let men do the DIY, walk nearest the road, open doors etc, that sort of thing. She's NOT saying that women should forgo their ambitions to have a career in the world of work and live life as a domestic housewife. Her argument is that marriages would be better and happier if some traditional gender rolls are adhered to.


Now, in my opinion i certainly agree that there's confusion surrounding gender rolls- some expectations have changed and some haven't. For instance, women go to university with the aim of advancing their careers as do men, but on nights out you'll rarely see women approaching men to chat them up, the expectation is still that the male makes the first moves. Could it be that women have cherry-picked gender norms that suit them (like wearing jeans and getting professional jobs)and left the harder tasks to men? Or does it reflect something on the nature side of the nature-nurture debate? Or a bit of both?

I'm a bit torn on the matter really. I think the world would be a better place if gender norms largely went away- I'm perfectly happy with women doing manual work and leading others, and men working in care positions and taking on a greater role in child-rearing. However, in day to day life and especially in dating you seem to get glimpses of old gender norms enduring. There's endless threads on the Escapist full of advice to young men telling them to be "confident"- and when you dissect that advice you begin to realise that it means taking on a lot of traditional masculine rolls- Be forward, assertive, dominant in conversation and impress women with your skills and talents. And if you glance over the covers of womens magazines, it's all about attracting males by making yourself thin, getting bigger breasts and that sort of thing. Is this simply cultural inertia or just a reminder from mother nature that we're animals just like the rest of fauna on Earth- with pre-programmed behavioral instincts and dispositions?


I think there's a lot of interesting debate to be had here, the trouble is that conversation about gender rolls is poisoned by the word "feminism", because a lot of people have such bias preconceptions of that word it colours any polite debate about the actual subject matter.

Gender norms reassert themselves during dating because as much as we want to pretend men and women are completely equal...we're just not. As evidenced by the fact it's the so-called Alphas who are never alone. Those differences exist even though a lot of us would like to pretend that they've gone away, and the rest of us have basically been conned into believing we should act entirely differently even though women aren't actually interested in the qualities they claim to be or at least that the media informs us they are.

To clarify, men and women are (or should be) 100% equal as individual people and citizens. However, as members of different genders there will always be disparity due to biology.

 

[Nickolai77]

I'm a bit torn on the matter really. I think the world would be a better place if gender norms largely went away- I'm perfectly happy with women doing manual work and leading others, and men working in care positions and taking on a greater role in child-rearing. However, in day to day life and especially in dating you seem to get glimpses of old gender norms enduring. There's endless threads on the Escapist full of advice to young men telling them to be "confident"- and when you dissect that advice you begin to realise that it means taking on a lot of traditional masculine rolls- Be forward, assertive, dominant in conversation and impress women with your skills and talents. And if you glance over the covers of womens magazines, it's all about attracting males by making yourself thin, getting bigger breasts and that sort of thing. Is this simply cultural inertia or just a reminder from mother nature that we're animals just like the rest of fauna on Earth- with pre-programmed behavioral instincts and dispositions?

Wrt dating specifically, it can be a self-perpetuating cycle if left unexamined. If men and women in general are taught and expected to fall into these roles (aggressive man pursues, passive woman attracts), then the optimal strategy for any particular man or woman is to do the same. I think it can be changed, though. (Ie, I'm on the "cultural inertia" side for the most part. Really, it's part of the timeless nature vs. nurture debate.)

Fair enough, i don't you're right or wrong on this matter. I basically sit on the fence and argue its both nature and nurture which interact in very complex ways that we don't yet understand- I think it's been said the human brain is the most complicated structure in the known universe, which is probably part of the reason why there's this endless debate. Basically though, human behavior can certainly be changed by nurture in my view, but i don't rule out evolved forms of behavior's shaping how society functions either.

think there's a lot of interesting debate to be had here, the trouble is that conversation about gender rolls is poisoned by the word "feminism", because a lot of people have such bias preconceptions of that word it colours any polite debate about the actual subject matter.

As for this, we should dispel the biased preconceptions rather than discard the word. Most people's notions of "feminism" are actually based on one side of a huge debate back in the 1980s. Feminism has said a lot since then, but people are too often turned off by the word to listen. The word has very important historical and political connotations, though.

Well, have fun disposing of those prejudices in popular discourse then. It's got to the point where you even have highly educated women in universities who are scornful of the word feminism. So, personally i think the most direct route for Feminists would be drop the label and initiate public debate about "gender", as one would initiate debates about "politics" or "religion".

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Equality isnt the be all and end all. Just be happy, do what you enjoy, live life. Have fun. Men and woman will never be equal, its stupid to even try. People in general are better at certain things, gender doesnt come into it. The smallest thing i can think of is most men can kill spiders, alot of woman are scared of them. Whats wrong with the man dealing with that issue? If in a relationship the woman loves cooking and is a better cook than the man, then whats wrong with the woman cooking? People have this issue with people doing certain roles. Most couples share roles.Not like they are forced, people fall in to the role thats comfortable for them or one that they enjoy. Stop thinking of things as male or female roles and just enjoy life for what it is. We are all different, we are all better at certain tasks than others.

 

[Lieju]

Now, in my opinion i certainly agree that there's confusion surrounding gender rolls- some expectations have changed and some haven't. For instance, women go to university with the aim of advancing their careers as do men, but on nights out you'll rarely see women approaching men to chat them up, the expectation is still that the male makes the first moves. Could it be that women have cherry-picked gender norms that suit them (like wearing jeans and getting professional jobs)and left the harder tasks to men? Or does it reflect something on the nature side of the nature-nurture debate? Or a bit of both?

Or could it be that there is still the view that women who go looking for sex/want to meet men are 'sluts'?
The expectation that the men should make the first step is an example of those norms that just harm both sexes.

In my experience, in a relationship both parties take up different roles and jobs. But they certainly don't follow 'traditional' roles. In some families the man cooks, in some both, or the woman, the same goes for yard-work, or cleaning, or taking care of the money. Not even talking about LGBT-couples...

It all depends on the individuals and their situation. For example, my mom and her husband are a very equal couple, but when my mom was unemployed for a while she would cook and clean and spend her day doing housework. When she returned back to work, they divided the housework again.

Equality isnt the be all and end all. Just be happy, do what you enjoy, live life. Have fun. Men and woman will never be equal, its stupid to even try. People in general are better at certain things, gender doesnt come into it. The smallest thing i can think of is most men can kill spiders, alot of woman are scared of them.

Funny thing, I keep tarantulas and other arachnids, and most other hobbyists I know are female... Most women I know are better at dealing with animals in general than the men, but I wouldn't claim that's true for all.

Let me just tell you guys a little story.
In my hometown, there was a woman who desperately wanted a baby girl. She had a baby boy, but wanted to raise him as a girl. She did the entire program, put him in dresses, wear pink, buy horse toys, you name it.
She didn't have a chance. From the day he could walk he played soccer, admired cars, tinkered with mechanics and did all the other "boy" stuff.
After 6 years, she finally gave up.

Men and women may be equal, but they're not the same.

Let me tell you a story. My mom was very happy to get a baby girl. She would buy her dolls, and skirts (she only agreed to wear them if they were blue, though), and let her play with her old barbies. But she was more interested in bugs, and animals, mechanics, and would play with the Barbies, but only to build them houses and have her dinosaur-dolls chase them.

Simply put, people are individuals. There is nothing in cars or mechanics that's 'boyish', unless you make it so.

 

[Vault101]

Gender norms reassert themselves during dating because as much as we want to pretend men and women are completely equal...we're just not.

what does that even mean? how are women inferior to men?

[quote/]To clarify, men and women are (or should be) 100% equal as individual people and citizens. However, as members of different genders there will always be disparity due to biology.[/quote]
you should just say "different" rather than using equal

The reason feminism doesn't work is because most women want new equality benefits but also want to keep traditional benefits.

yeah.....thats bullshit

[quote/]I have never met a woman who at some point in time hasn't said "I'm a girl, it's harder for me", even macho butch, lesbian and crazy feminist ones.[/quote]
*facepalm* mabye thats because there actually ARE some issues?


[quote/]What I am saying however is that feminist can not go around claiming men are pigs (almost all do), men oppress women, women are suffering, and then turn around and claim at the same time that it's ok for women to do the same thing.[/quote]
you just contradicted what you said just before....oh never mind (almost all do is a gross generalisation bound to piss peopel off)


[quote/]Stereotypes in TV & Movies is one of the best examples of how equality is not obtainable and how each side mostly cares about themselves.[/quote]
I.....don't even..what the fuck?

[quote/]If a woman is beat up in a movie is "risque", men are portrayed as dull brutes where as women are smart and caring, if a man loves a younger person it's considered sick and twisted, if a woman does then she is doing him a favor and is obviously just a caring person.[/quote]
aaand to flip it around women dont get to do shit aside from stand on the sidelins...in fact Ive seen there is a narrower range of personality types of women shown in films

hey! bother genders get portrayed in a certain light! what would have thourght?


aaaaaaaaaaand I'm not going to bother with the rest of that

 

[Vault101]

Equality isnt the be all and end all. Just be happy, do what you enjoy, live life. Have fun. Men and woman will never be equal,

if I might ask how are women inferior to men?

[quote/]its stupid to even try. People in general are better at certain things, gender doesnt come into it. The smallest thing i can think of is most men can kill spiders, alot of woman are scared of them. Whats wrong with the man dealing with that issue?[/quote]
why do you assume people who push for equality would have a problem with that?

[quote/]If in a relationship the woman loves cooking and is a better cook than the man, then whats wrong with the woman cooking? People have this issue with people doing certain roles. Most couples share roles.Not like they are forced, people fall in to the role thats comfortable for them or one that they enjoy. Stop thinking of things as male or female roles and just enjoy life for what it is. We are all different, we are all better at certain tasks than others.[/quote]
I actually dont understand what the hell your trying to say....

 

[Scars Unseen]

Damn, I thought this thread would be about an actual good opinion on the whole sexism debate but instead I got "WOMEN CAN ONLY BE HAPPY IF MARRIED!".

It's not that women can only be happy if married. It's just that women are happiest when men are miserable, and marriage is the easiest way to accomplish that.



[EDI]That was a joke.[/EDI]

 

[Erttheking]

The reason feminism doesn't work is because most women want new equality benefits but also want to keep traditional benefits.

I have never met a woman who at some point in time hasn't said "I'm a girl, it's harder for me", even macho butch, lesbian and crazy feminist ones.


I'm not saying all feminist are crazy, like any group what we see the most are the vocal/crazy ones, religion, politics and so on.

What I am saying however is that feminist can not go around claiming men are pigs (almost all do), men oppress women, women are suffering, and then turn around and claim at the same time that it's ok for women to do the same thing.


Stereotypes in TV & Movies is one of the best examples of how equality is not obtainable and how each side mostly cares about themselves.

If a woman is beat up in a movie is "risque", men are portrayed as dull brutes where as women are smart and caring, if a man loves a younger person it's considered sick and twisted, if a woman does then she is doing him a favor and is obviously just a caring person.


When feminist fight for true equality, not just getting better for themselves, I will support them.

But they never will, why? cause this is America. Yay capitalism. Yay personal achievement. Yay screw everyone else. Yay worship of sex money and pride.


And if that's what you are fighting for? If that's what you want to use your equality for? Then you are just a sick wannabe of the men who oppress you.

Love those who hate you. Forgive those who wrong you. Care for those who need you. Turn the other cheek.
These are all feminine aspects is our society. They are also christian beliefs (not practices sadly...). This is what feminist want to be against.

You want to be in the position of power and abuse it like the men do? Hell like the women do now too? Disgusting

Maybe some of them do, but I get the feeling that they're in the minority and not the majority.

Well, I haven't met someone like that.

This kinda contradicts everything else you say.

Like right here. Again, pretty sure that this is in the minority.

Further explanation is needed.

That's because people who write movies are still uncomfortable with writing protagonists that aren't straight white males, I don't think that we should take what they put out as an example that we should base our society on.

Since when do they don't?

Wait what?

Again MINORITY!

Ok, what are you talking about? I honestly have no idea.

Ok, CITATION NEEDED!

Are some feminists people that go way way WAY too far? Yes, but they are not the majority! Call them out when they appear, but don't talk about all feminists as crazy nazis that want to oppress us poor helpless men. Honestly, this is why I'm reluctant to talk about sexism, too many people are in two camps the "everyone who is a feminist is a crazy feminazi" camp or the "everyone who is against any ideal that is labeled 'feminist' is just a misogynistic ass" camp. Can't we talk about this like logical rational Human beings?

 

[bananafishtoday]

think there's a lot of interesting debate to be had here, the trouble is that conversation about gender rolls is poisoned by the word "feminism", because a lot of people have such bias preconceptions of that word it colours any polite debate about the actual subject matter.

As for this, we should dispel the biased preconceptions rather than discard the word. Most people's notions of "feminism" are actually based on one side of a huge debate back in the 1980s. Feminism has said a lot since then, but people are too often turned off by the word to listen. The word has very important historical and political connotations, though.

Well, have fun disposing of those prejudices in popular discourse then. It's got to the point where you even have highly educated women in universities who are scornful of the word feminism. So, personally i think the most direct route for Feminists would be drop the label and initiate public debate about "gender", as one would initiate debates about "politics" or "religion".

Very true, but I think the long-term risks of abandoning the term vastly outweigh the possible short-term benefits. (Just look at what happened to the word "socialism" in the US.) If using the word "feminism" to attack a position goes unchallenged, then it just becomes a tool to shut down debate.

Like, if feminism is a dirty word, and someone advocates a feminist position but repudiates the word, what do they say when someone makes the connection that their ideas are feminist? "No they're not."? Its silly.

The negative connotations were invented in the pre-internet days, and maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I think they can be reversed now that everyone has access to basically the entirety of human knowledge. Just a matter of the advocates being loud and visible. The whole "man-hating feminist" stereotype is just patently absurd because the group this stereotype was based on was never a majority, and because most third-wave feminists take seriously the notion that patriarchal power structures harm men as well (though not to the same degree or in the same ways.)

 

[CrazyGirl17]

(Face palm) ...Anyone else but me want to slap whoever wrote that? I can't help but feel a bit offended...

 

[Zantos]

Again, winky faces people! Unless you're claiming to use violent force against a person (which on the internet, shouldn't be taken seriously anyways), a winky face is necessary when post sarcasm without at the very least the text being in italics.

a winky face would ruin the joke

I'm somewhat "known" around here so most people would know I'm joking

Spoiler: Don't you know who I am?

Say it. You totally should say it.

Everyone knows someone that is married or engaged, and they think that makes them the authority on human happiness. Yeah, if you're with someone that makes you happy that's nice, plus sex on tap has never been known to bring down someone's mood. But this whole "You must be married to be happy" is stoopid. Also possibly why so many end in divorce. It's only made worse if it comes from Samantha "If I thought I could get away with it I would totally hit her with a" Brick.

 

[AsurasEyes]

I cried. I was laughing so hard I was fucking crying.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

Love those who hate you. Forgive those who wrong you. Care for those who need you. Turn the other cheek.
These are all feminine aspects is our society.

This is something that's been bouncing around my head for a while and was finally crystallized yesterday: there's no such thing as a "feminine virtue". There's no such thing as a "masculine virtue". Believe it or not, yin/yang cosmology is not actually a thing. Men and women do not have complementary mental, spiritual, or physical skill sets that, when combined as one, turn two people into one complete whole. Light and Darkness do not become one. There is no Yin Yang Bomb.

Welcome to real life.