To the people who don't pirate: Is life really so bad?

[nipsen]

Somewhat related to the topic:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/riccitiello-we-got-too-fat-too-reliant
"Speaking at the DICE Summit, he said the current recession is a "blessing in disguise," as it forces publishers to trim the fat and rethink the development process.

"We did get fat in too many places. It seemed like anyone who could draw a guy with a gun with a crayon could get funded," said Riccitiello [EA's CEO]."

No one is willing to pay "full price" for something that neither is well made, or something you can tell the developers put their soul into. And blaming low returns on piracy is simply a cop out.

 

[ultra_v_89]

Sure I wouldn't own the game if I didn't pirate it but I wouldn't have bought it either so the developer would lose nothing.

And as far as ethics go, you brought that into the equation not me. Laws are made for a reason. Piracy is illegal. To those who say companies aren't losing money, please explain to me why it's illegal?

And just for the record, I'm not innocent of this crime either. I've pirated music and movies. I try not to do it very often, but I've done it. I just think the people who are trying to justify piracy for any reason are just plain wrong.

Thanks for not taking what I said out of context and as such make me look like an asshole :S. My point was that games pirated =/= copies of games that would have otherwise been sold since people will glady take stuff at no expense to themselves however when a dollar value is placed on it they may reconsider. If you believed that line summed up my post, then I ask you to re-read it, good sir. Also, to answer your question, piracy is illegal because there are victims of this crime. Sure, sometimes they appear to be faceless companies but what about the employees and shareholders, who have a stake in the games and companies performance?

 

[fenrizz]

If you had no intention of paying them, yet you take what they made. That's stealing because you took property without being allowed to do so.

What property did I take? The software? No. The person I downloaded from still has his, noone lost their copy of it. The profit? No. They never had my money in the first place, and again - "You can't lose what you don't have". It's like saying you just stole my car. In what way? Well, I'm just assuming you were going to give me your car, and since you didn't, you clearly stole it from me.

Just like they just assume I was going to give them my money, and since I didn't, I clearly stole it from them.

I'm so sick and tired of the "you can't lose what you don't have" excuse. If I copy down your credit card info, you still have your card, so I didn't steal it right? If I then use that information to make purchases, I'm still not wrong because it's not like I took money you actually had right? The point is just because you're not actually taking something from someone doesn't make it right. Grow up and find a better excuse for your criminal activities. Or move somewhere where it's not a crime.

This excuse is way better than your atempt to discredit it.
Credit card: THE ORIGINAL OWNER WILL STILL HAVE TO PAY THE BILL!
if you copied some gold on the other hand...

I saw this point and couldn't help myself. I had to weigh in.

Fenrizz, you know who else has to pay the bill? The people who made the fucking game you downloaded! Try and justify yourself all you want, but at the end of the day, the developers and publishers are trying to make a living by making games. If we all took your attitude, every single developer and publisher of note would have gone bankrupt years ago. Publishers don't magically create money in order to fund developers. They take the income from the sales of one game, and use it to fund another. If a game sells well, they can then fund more games. It's basic maths, yet you seem intent on saying 1+1=3

Have I ever downloaded a game. Indeed I have. In fact, I've downloaded a few. They were old Playstation/N64 games which I ran through an emulator. They've all been out of print for years, and half of them I already paid for when they were first out. The developers made their profits on that game, invested their money, and most of them are still around today, working on sequels and threequels. I'm not trying to justify myself here, but I'd like to think that what I do is at least a little bit better for the karma than downloading a game before it's even been released.

Do I have problems with the industry? Fuck yes! I think the industry stinks. Franchise milking, DRM, crappy DLC, fuck the lot! However, I also place importance on having some kind of moral integrity. Piracy will not move the industry out of the quagmire. You may think that you're 'sticking it to the man' or 'fighting the power' by pirating games. You're not. You're really not. Piracy doesn't hurt the CEOs or the Marketing Managers or any of those guys. It just means that, somewhere down the line, a studio is going to be deemed 'unprofitable', and all its staff are going to get laid off.

Ach, you're not even going to listen any way. You've convinced yourself that you're in the right, and I'm just an anonymous guy on a forum. For what it's worth: modern game development requires a lot of time and a lot of money investment. Developers put in a lot of man hours and effort to get the games we play out there on the shelves. Whether you class piracy as 'stealing' or not, those dudes aren't getting reimbursed for all the effort they've put in.

sorry for late response, ive been off to work
actually, as i have written elsewhere in this post, i do not pirate games.
I like to support developers that i like, and buy good games. the only game i have downloaded in the last 1 1/2 years is Age of Empires II, simply because i could not find a store that sold it. (and a few months ago i found a collectors edition with AoE and AoE II /w all expansions for 20$, which i bought).
i really wanted to play Spore, but i dident, because it featured a rather nasty, imo, DRM that. so i dident buy it (or pirate it for that matter)
and i do listen, but when people say that piracy = stealing, i must troll.


My point is:
1. If have no intention of buying a game, and then proceed to not but the game, the developer have not gained any money from me.
2. If i then copy this game from a friend (or download it), the publisher have not lost any money since i did not intend to buy the game in the first place.

and that piracy is no the same as stealing someones car or credit card

I just don't quite see how its easier to live with knowing that you've stolen a game than to just go without.

I did not steal it, i copied it.

and the difference is? you still have it, and you didn't pay for it ;o)

I don't pirate, and it makes me appreciate what I do have and be more selective in my gaming. I don't pirate music either, if it was my intellectual property I wouldn't want people stealing it.

noone is stealing it, they are copying it. an unauthorized copy, yes. but they did not steal it

 

[fenrizz]

sorry double post

 

[Cowabungaa]

noone is stealing it, they are copying it. an unauthorized copy, yes. but they did not steal it

The law, however (as has been pointed out to me) has equalled those 2. Yea, technically it's not stealing, if you look in a dictionary, but it is for the law. So a discussion about that is kinda useless.

 

[Necrophagist]

I just don't quite see how its easier to live with knowing that you've stolen a game than to just go without.

Pirating is not stealing. When you pirate software, you copy it. The one you copy it from still gets to keep theirs. When you steal, the person you steal from loses their copy. Noone loses anything if I copy software, I merely create another of it.

And no, they don't lose profit either. I've never given them my money, and I never had any intention to do so. "You can't lose what you do not have".

Edit: Also, as for the reason for pirating: Consumers get software with copyright protection, shitty internet validation and stuff. Pirates get cracked software, meaning without the annoying protection. Conclusion - if you pirate software, you get a superior product. So what they're doing, in essence, is punishing people for paying for the product by supplying them with an inferior product.

Edit: A prime example is the recent spore release. Buyers get to install it four (?) times, then it's done. A pirate can install it an infinite amount of times.

Further edit: Also, I don't pirate myself. But most of the arguments for not doing so are... really dumb.

Sorry, pirating is stealing. The value of a CD/DVD with a game on it is not the CD/DVD but the content of the game. So it's those ones and zeroes that have value, which are what you are "copying" which is replicating the value without paying for it.

Me, I've made peace with that. I don't have too many qualms about taking something I need for my spiritual well-being from a multi-billion dollar industry. It's like stealing bread when you're hungry. Or paying a hooker with counterfeit money.

 

[fenrizz]

noone is stealing it, they are copying it. an unauthorized copy, yes. but they did not steal it

The law, however (as has been pointed out to me) has equalled those 2. Yea, technically it's not stealing, if you look in a dictionary, but it is for the law. So a discussion about that is kinda useless.

Maybe according to US law. Norwegian law, not so much.
my point is, for the most, that copying a movie is not comparable to stealing a car

 

[Arionis]

A fate well deserved. They just give you demo's with good bits so you would buy a game. And when it turns out to be shit, you already bought it and are stuck with it.

I download a game and if I like it I buy it. Same goes with movies, music and everything else.

Same type of concept for XBL... Downloading demos on the XBLA helps me cope until I have the money to buy them...

Castlevania : Symphony of the Night, you WILL be mine.

Even though I have you on PS3 .>>;

 

[nipsen]

So a discussion about that is kinda useless.

I just love the sentiments in this thread - first it's "you wouldn't download a car", and "you're hurting music by not buying Britney". And then, well, it's useless to discuss it further because the law is the law.

Really, I wonder why you have insane copy- right laws in the first place? It's really a mystery how it happens, isn't it?

 

[Wyatt]

Oh bugger, I'm losing. I'm surrounded by pirates and I'm defending a useless/moot point. Only one thing to do.

You're all commies

losing what? piracy is theft, if your cought you will be punished in most nations in the world. there is nothing to lose or not too lose in this argument its allready been decided by governments not forum tards.

as i said before i dont give a shit if someone pirats or not, my purpose here is to deflate the nonsensical statments that piracy isnt theft and no one gets hurt.

if it was ok it would be LEGAL. and im almost CERTIAN (since iv read more than one court decision here in the states about this topic over the yeras) that every single dumbass argument why its ok to steal something has been argued in court and tossed out as the stupidity it is.

as much as some of you might like to think taht an average person is stupid, i find that most arent and if something looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck its a fucking DUCK. you can parse words till your fingers fall off, you can try and split legal hairs till your old an gray yourself, but in the end piracy is taking something that doesnt belong to you even if its only an idea,

thats theft.

this might very well be a 'moot point' but not because im surrounded by pirats and im losing, its because most governments have decided that im right. it IS a moot point, if your cought you will be fined and or go to jail and you can spend yout time telling your cell mate all about how you got 'rail roaded by the man' and are innocent.

the communism thing ...... well again i refer you to my duck comments. snearing at the simple truth doesnt change that truth one bit you know. ill also add this isnt an argument over social systems for me. its simple basic human rights, a man or woman has a right to own and if they chose benifit from what they create, if you take that away from them against their wishes or denigh them compensation for their work your a thief. i also find it amazing the lengths that some people will go to try and justify their stealing.

steal or dont, i dont much care either way. in fact as i said in some cases i admire it and at some times ive been tempted to DO it myself. but dont try and justify it or call it anything other than what it is, and that is theft.

 

[wordsmith]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=define%3Atheft&btnG=Search Theft

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&defl=en&q=defineiracy&ei=7BWfSfXUJcKz-Qa-pPW2Dg&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title Piracy

Basically: Software Piracy is called Software Piracy and not Theft because Theft requires some property be *removed* from the rightful owner. None is removed, therefore no theft has occured.

I agree, if it moves like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is. In this situation it's moving like a duck and you are automatically assuming I'm intending to eat it.

You look at the piracy seizures lately... The people who are providing mass downloads and PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING MONEY FROM IT.

The problem that Software piracy has is that to successfully convict you would have to prove that it was that person using the computer to download the program. If you have more than one person in the frame, you will find it incredibly hard to figure out whodunnit

 

[lewa nua]

I have a challenge 4 u pro piraters. Learn a programming language then make a short game in full 3d then out the kinks then still tell me the companies still dont deserve the money.

You clearly have no idea how most games are made.

Umm, you're talking to a programmer here. DO you know how games are made?

 

[lewa nua]

I have a challenge 4 u pro piraters. Learn a programming language then make a short game in full 3d then out the kinks then still tell me the companies still dont deserve the money.

First of all, no. I'm not going to spend that much of my free time to prove a point to you. How about you make a short game in full 3d and then see if you still tell us they deserve the money?

Also, noone's arguing that they don't deserve the money.

Yes people are arguing its not worth the money. And B, Im a freaken programmer, and by saying that you just DID prove my point. I KNOW my shit. I dev apps for the iPhone and tried making a game before. To make programs with the complexity that they have now takes shitloads of time and effort. STFU Nub. And yes I do think they deserve the money. Just because YOU didn't like it doesn't mean others didn't like it.

 

[chronobreak]

Yes people are arguing its not worth the money. And B, Im a freaken programmer, and by saying that you just DID prove my point. I KNOW my shit. I dev apps for the iPhone and tried making a game before. To make programs with the complexity that they have now takes shitloads of time and effort. STFU Nub. And yes I do think they deserve the money. Just because YOU didn't like it doesn't mean others didn't like it.

You being a "programmer" has nothing to do with anything, you're just trying to make your point sound more legit. Developing apps for the Iphone and making Dead Space are two different things I'd take it, but I am not a programmer. You are talking like the programmers, who I would also assume there is a small army of for most big-budget titles, get 100 percent of the money. This is not the case.

I will also say if there was a game that was entirely made by one programmer, I would not pirate it.

 

[Wyatt]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=define%3Atheft&btnG=Search Theft

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&defl=en&q=defineiracy&ei=7BWfSfXUJcKz-Qa-pPW2Dg&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title Piracy

Basically: Software Piracy is called Software Piracy and not Theft because Theft requires some property be *removed* from the rightful owner. None is removed, therefore no theft has occured.

I agree, if it moves like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is. In this situation it's moving like a duck and you are automatically assuming I'm intending to eat it.

You look at the piracy seizures lately... The people who are providing mass downloads and PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING MONEY FROM IT.

The problem that Software piracy has is that to successfully convict you would have to prove that it was that person using the computer to download the program. If you have more than one person in the frame, you will find it incredibly hard to figure out whodunnit

Main Entry: theft
Pronunciation: \ˈtheft\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English thiefthe, from Old English thîefth; akin to Old English thçof thief
Date: before 12th century

a: the act of stealing ; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it

b: an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property

part B covers it, piracy it taking property unlawfully. and before you ask what property, the idea alone is property. dont think so? try to google that concept and see how many hits you get.

im not sure what the rest of your reply even means. especialy the looking at the seizures part, that has me totaly baffled, as to who is 'guilty' on a given computer, well now the law will simply say its the owner that is, more than one owner? than they are both/all guilty. its the same laws that govern things like drug busts in cars, if you let your buddy drive your car and he gets picked up with a pound of pot, they take YOUR car. atleast where im from.

off topic a bit but in fact i had a friend of mine many years ago that went through customs between America and Canada, he was coming from canada and the border patrol spoted a roach clip in his ash tray, wasnt his i KNOW because he didnt use pot, but his truck got impounded and sold anyhow. corse thats mostly due to the harsh drugs laws in New York State but the principal remains the same.

 

[nipsen]

So... once you're done quoting the dictionary - are any of you going to come up with an actual argument?