To those people calling us "Entitled" (Dark Souls PC)

[Dragonmaster3]

I'm sorry to have made a thread to go against some people, but I feel that this had to be done. I'm sure all of you know that Dark Souls is coming to the PC. Now I'm sure that all of you know that there's already been an petition to remove ONE aspect of it, Games for Windows Live (GFWL). And I'm sure that you're aware that now other people are calling PC Gamers "entitled, whiners, selfish brats, etc."

What most people don't get is WHY we don't like GFWL. For the many people that play on consoles, they have no idea what GFWL even is, and thus assume it's something like XBOX LIVE. Let me tell you, it's nothing like that at all. It's a horrible service, made by people who threw some lines of code together and called it a day. You want proof why GFWL is so universally hated?

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/01/31/my-strangest-pc-gaming-problem-yet-ive-lost-games-for-windows-live/

Read that article, and trust me, there's plenty more from where that came from. With games like Arkham City losing saves to it, and how we can't back up our saves or anything. Or even people's attemps to play games with it, and the games not working. Or the times people messaging me to help them out on games that have GFWL on them, because the game isn't registering. Think of it like this, we would rather know that our game would work, instead of worrying every time we launch the game, "I hope my game works this time". Just because it works for you, does not mean that it works for everyone. I've had it work for me pretty flawlessly, but I'm doing this for the people that it doesn't work for, and there's quite a lot.

Now I can understand that From Software is pretty awesome for even bringing up an PC port, and I can understand that they thought using GFWL was a good idea since it would be easier to port it over, since the net code can remain the same from XBOX LIVE to GFWL, and that they won't have to re-do the entire netcode.

However, this is a petition! We're not going over to their forums crying and demanding that they change it. We're just asking them politely and with a petition saying that many people think that GFWL is a bad service, and that they should use Steamworks instead since it's a much better service, and more widely accepted. It would also benefit Namco Bandai since now some people are saying that they won't be buying the game if it has GFWL, and who can blame them? I could go on and on, but I'm going to stop here. I'm just making this thread in the hopes of the ignorant people that keep calling us "entitled, etc." actually realize why PC gamers don't like GFWL at all. Thanks for reading!

EDIT: Okay, it appears that I may have worded the title differently. What I meant was that the people that were calling PC gamers "entitled" over the Dark Souls GFWL outcry. I'm NOT referring to the Mass Effect 3 DLC / ending, or whatever else you're going to put in, and that's for another time and place.

 

[Savagezion]

The problem is too many people think there is no possible way to "ask politely" in a structured manner. Right now the media has the mob in a shit storm where asking the devs for anything makes you a "whiny entitled little shit attacking the poor defenseless multi-million $ studios". I guess the consensus is that everyone should bend over and take it like a real consumer should.

It's been a while since I have seen a real "over the top" outcry from fans in gaming. I think the hatred for CoD and sports games is about the worst with people saying that companies shouldn't be making games that clearly has a large demographic want to re-buy every year and remaking them could easily be seen as fan service. I think the Dark Souls thing is pretty legitamate. After all, From Software wasn't going to port it over unless it was guaranteed sales (which the petition proved was there) but now consumers are saying "Woah! You are going to fail EXACTLY how you didn't want to fail originally by putting that on the product." That is GREAT information to know as From Software. Now, they have to decide if it is cost beneficial to do it without GFWL. I think this new petition should result in 1 of 2 things.

1) Release it without GFWL
2) Announce the only way they'll release it for PC is with GFWL, then see the feedback on that and make their decision.

They either will or they won't and that's as simple as it gets, and there is no harm in asking. That is something so many people don't seem to understand. Either that, or they dont understand that in order to request anything from a big business, you better have a list of signatures (AKA statistcis) to be heard. That's how decisions are made at a corporate level. Statistics. Considering all the CoD hate, you would think more people would know that. However, considering all the crying about Retake Mass Effect and Dark Souls petition, clearly there are quite a bit of ignorance out there.

 

[Windcaler]

At the end of the day every gamer is entitled to a product that works. At the very least we deserve that for our money but thats the issue with Games for windows live. For some people as a service it doesnt work and never has for others its a bad service and they will refuse to use it, for others it works fine and provides no issues for them.

I understand why theyre using GFWL and it makes finnacial sense. The problem is they will see, and need to accept, that there will be greater piracy of Dark souls because of it (mostly due to GFWL being region locked). Some people will not be able to buy the game just because of the region locking so if they want to play it they wont have a choice but to pirate it.

For me, I signed the original petitions asking for a port and in every one I made a note that I would only buy a PC port if there was no DRM. Im still standing by that but if I were to purchase dark souls I would be in the "the game doesnt work because its on GFWL" group. If people think were being entitled because were not buying this game. Well for some of us they're absolutely right, we are entitled to a game that works and if I will excersise any consumer right above all it is that one. Would they prefer I buy the game (knowing it doesnt work because no GFWL game works for me) and later make a complaint to the FTC about being sold merchandise that doesnt work? I think not

 

[DoPo]

This debate has been brought up and argued many times already, another is not required.

 

[Zayle79]

See, I think we can all agree that you're not entitled to have them remove GFWL. It's only stupid, not evil. But, as far as I can tell, you're not saying that you are entitled to it; you're just trying to convince them into doing what you want by demonstrating how many people agree with you. The problem is that so many of these things involve people who are completely insane, insisting that companies are kitten-eating Illuminati members unless they give in to their demands, and people tend to just assume that of all game-related petitions, boycotts, etc. You just have to keep doing what you're doing, and people might come to see these things in a more positive light.

 

[Gorilla Gunk]

Apparently beggars CAN be choosers.

 

[Strain42]

I think gamer's often do act entitled, but not really for the reasons that are often brought up.

When I see something that is a legitimate complaint or outcry from gamers, I don't think twice.

But when I see stuff like throwing a hissy fit because there's no pre-order bonus, or saying that a company sucks just because localization time is six months when some other company gets games out in one...yeah...THAT'S being entitled, and it can come across as very annoying and almost bratty behavior.

 

[burningdragoon]

In this case, I don't think the Dark Souls no GFWL petition is an act of (major) entitlement. However, having a relatively good reason to complain does not automatically negate the entitlement.

And as another point, these things don't occur in a vacuum, so some big entitlement issues will color how smaller entitlement issues are seen. Just how it works.

 

[Dragonmaster3]

Apparently beggars CAN be choosers.

This always irks me, we're not "begging" them for anything. Sure you're definition of an beggar may be different than mines, but in my opinion, we asked them nicely, and in the correct manner to bring over Dark Souls to the PC. When they did that, they put in an component that is universally hated, so as an SUGGESTION, we told them we would rather have Steamworks than the annoying, broken GFWL.

 

[Forgetitnow344]

I don't think this is entitlement. To the ME3 protesters who are upset the ending sucked and are displeased with the DLC that explains all the inconsistencies, YOU are entitled.

To the OP and everyone upset with and confused over the necessity for faulty software and broken DRM, the issue of entitlement is non-existent. You're paying for a service which is not being provided in any definition. It's not just not as good as you wanted it to be or you wished it to be, it doesn't even work. You have every right to complain about GFWL... Especially since Xbox Live is so great. Seriously, it steamrolls PSN. I think Microsoft just doesn't care about you PC gamers because PC gaming is no longer all that profitable. It's significantly harder to pirate for this gen's console than it is for any gen's PC game.

 

[Vegosiux]

Entitlement. People keep using that word. I do not think it means what they think it means.

It's not a negative character trait; nor is it a behavior pattern, that's for sure.

 

[Corven]

Love him or hate him totalbiscuit brings up some good points on the whole issue of GFWL and dark souls in his mailbox yesterday.

Basically saying that gfwl is a necessary evil if you want a port of dark souls since gfwl and xbox live net code is very similar so it won't cost from software more than however much namco bandai sanctioned them to get the port up and running.

he also says that even if you don't like gfwl you should still buy this port so publishers and devs can't turn around and say the pc market really isn't viable when they gave us what we wanted, he also brings up the point that any future "souls" titles may get released on pc using a better digital distribution service if this port succeeds like how fallout 3 had gfwl but new vegas had steamworks.

 

[The Wykydtron]

It is kinda funny thinking how loads of people were like "wooo PC port! Love you FROM! Oh GWFL? Fuck this shit then i'm gonna go back to mah TF2!" Super overexaggerated but you get the point. "Great you gave us the PC port with new content in a rather short dev cycle. Now can you just change it a bit? Like change the entire netcode? That'd be great..."


Just no guys. Just no. Fine, give it as a desire for the next Souls game but don't try and make them rework the entire netcode. It'll probably be buggy as fuck if they switch to Steamworks or something. Hell it might be buggy anyway. You never know with ports.


If you ask me you're better off if you don't even touch that game. Monitors are a lot more readily punchable than TVs.

 

[Gorilla Gunk]

Apparently beggars CAN be choosers.

This always irks me, we're not "begging" them for anything. Sure you're definition of an beggar may be different than mines, but in my opinion, we asked them nicely, and in the correct manner to bring over Dark Souls to the PC. When they did that, they put in an component that is universally hated, so as an SUGGESTION, we told them we would rather have Steamworks than the annoying, broken GFWL.

A petition is, in a way, begging.

And a petition full of people saying if they don't release it on Steam they won't buy it doesn't really sound like a "suggestion.

Like I said in another thread, if you guys keep petitioning every little thing they do than From Software/Namco Bandai might reconsider releasing future games on the PC.

 

[Vault101]

entitled is just another word thrown around by people who are sick of hearing about certain issues

 

[Kahunaburger]

People are actually whining about the Dark Souls/GFWL petition? Wow.

 

[BreakfastMan]

The only question I have is why are they not releasing it on Steam. I mean, GFWL has a horrid track-record, while Steam has a great one and many more possible users. Why not release it on that? One would think the extra customers from Steam would more than make up for the cost of re-doing the netcode. :/

 

[Bobic]

Apparently beggars CAN be choosers.

To be fair, if I offer a beggar a cake, then tell him that I'm going to mix some shit into the cake, he's well within his rights to say, 'actually, I'd prefer it if you didn't mix fecal matter into my cake' without being called entitled or dismissed as a whining nerd.

Basically, GFWL is a giant turd.