Tolkien, Overrated?

[GrimTuesday]

Personally he's kind of like C.S Lewis in that their styles are very hit or miss. I love Tolkien and Lewis for that matter but I can see how their styles can be hard to get through. I didn't like either until I got older.

I think you're right about C.S. Lewis and Tolkien being similar as far as how people view their styles. I dislike most of his books too (with the exception A Horse and His Boy) which I will admit is partially because of Aslan the Jesus Allegory Lion.

 

[Umenrakh]

+1 internets to the first person who says what his biggest literary influence was.

(..and no googling )

Scandinavian mythology? Specifically that saga that I forget the name of (One of the ACTUAL sagas of old, not the bullshit modern tendency to stick the word "saga" onto your work to make it seem impressive).

On topic: Seems to me that you either love or hate Mr. Tolkien's works. Personally, I love how every line has a semi-poetic style. I'll admit that when I was young, I couldn't stand how every major battle would have a huge build-up and then would be over in a heartbeat (by comparison), but I've actually come to enjoy that with time- In today's market, it's a breath of fresh air.
And a warning to parents- if you introduce your children to Tolkien, make sure they read the book BEFORE they see the movie.

 

[BlindMessiah94]

What other writers do you feel are overrated and why?

Terry. Fucking. Pratchett.
Why?
Because I have read his books and didn't enjoy them. Also every freaking fangirl out there just starts to squeal when you mention him and its getting old.

 

[Safaia]

Personally he's kind of like C.S Lewis in that their styles are very hit or miss. I love Tolkien and Lewis for that matter but I can see how their styles can be hard to get through. I didn't like either until I got older.

I think you're right about C.S. Lewis and Tolkien being similar as far as how people view their styles. I dislike most of his books too (with the exception A Horse and His Boy) which I will admit is partially because of Aslan the Jesus Allegory Lion.

I agree that he did lay the religion on a little (very?) thick but I still really enjoyed them as far as narratives and stories go.

Also watching my super religious dad read His Dark Materials and then read The Chronicles of Narnia in a one month period entertained the hell out of me. Talk about different ends of the spectrum.

 

[The Stonker]

What other writers do you feel are overrated and why?

Terry. Fucking. Pratchett.
Why?
Because I have read his books and didn't enjoy them. Also every freaking fangirl out there just starts to squeal when you mention him and its getting old.

Could you say that, he's forgetful?

But, I love Terry, I think it's kinda hard reading his books but I do listen to him on audio.
I would recommend the Football book : D

 

[GrimTuesday]

What other writers do you feel are overrated and why?

Terry. Fucking. Pratchett.
Why?
Because I have read his books and didn't enjoy them. Also every freaking fangirl out there just starts to squeal when you mention him and its getting old.

:O but... he has a space sword.
And I thought I was going to get flamed, you're in for a shitstorm of anger.

 

[Anomynous 167]

Tolkien has recieved my scorn because of his insistent misspellings have been borrowed by other fantasy authors.

The word I am talking about is of three letters. The word I am talking about is "Ork"

It annoys me that so many franchises and authors have borrowed his error, and slammed on a C in the word inplace of the proper K.

This problem is so prevailent that the few franchises that don't copy his error,(E.G: Warhammer, a franchise that I know nothing about) are mistaken as something written by some one trying to to be hip by using the letter K in the place of the proper C (It looks like the trope "Xtremely Kool Letterz"http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XtremeKoolLetterz ).

So to phrase the 4th paragraph in simpler terms: in this case senario, spelling the word right makes you look like a try-hard.

Is Tolkien that guy who ripped off Gary Gygax?

Yup.

 

[GrimTuesday]

Tolkien has recieved my scorn because of his insistent misspellings have been borrowed by other fantasy authors.

The word I am talking about is of three letters. The word I am talking about is "Ork"

It annoys me that so many franchises and authors have borrowed his error, and slammed on a C in the word inplace of the proper K.

This problem is so prevailent that the few franchises that don't copy his error,(E.G: Warhammer, a franchise that I know nothing about) are mistaken as something written by some one trying to to be hip by using the letter K in the place of the proper C (It looks like the trope "Xtremely Kool Letterz"http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XtremeKoolLetterz ).

So to phrase the 4th paragraph in simpler terms: in this case senario, spelling the word right makes you look like a try-hard.

Is Tolkien that guy who ripped off Gary Gygax?

Yup.

But what about how George RR Martin spells sir as ser. I personally like it and use it whenever I say sir.

 

[Umenrakh]

You're basing this on what? what are you claiming the origin of the word "Ork" to be for the purpose of this argument?

 

[Werekettle]

Edit: I'm not refuting Tolkien's contribution to fantasy as a genre In fact I have admitted that he was a major influence to many of the best authors of our time.

A lot of Tolkien's "kudos" comes from the fact that "The Hobbit" pretty much established the Fantasy genre - prior to that it was pretty much short stories that were published in Sci-Fi magazines and the like so he is pretty much THE father of the fantasy genre.

That being said it is very much an old style of writing, very similar to a lot of litrature of the time and I do at times find it a bit on the wordy side..... still, given most fantasy stories are just Tolkien clones, he's one of the best out there

 

[Haydyn]

I have mixed feelings regarding Tolkein. One one hand, he created the entire genre of fantasy fiction (elves use bows, dwarves drink.) On the other, LotR is dragged out way too long. By the time I got two and a half hours into the first movie, I honestly thought the movie had ended. Then it's still going, and I'm sitting there confused because it's so hard to remember anything when things like plot very slowly come up. Same problem with the second movie.

 

[Hosker]

No, I don't think he is. It's just opinion really; I enjoy the long descriptions.
I can quite easily see why people don't like LoTR, but that doesn't stop me from liking it. I think the problem is that most people read The Hobbit first and then expect something similar to it.

 

[scar_47]

to me as a writer yes, I understand that he's the father of fantasy but I cannot stand his writing style there's just to much world building done through description and that draws me away from the story. I much prefer something like Dune thats builds a world while remaining connected to the actual story.

 

[Hosker]

Tolkien has recieved my scorn because of his insistent misspellings have been borrowed by other fantasy authors.

The word I am talking about is of three letters. The word I am talking about is "Ork"

It annoys me that so many franchises and authors have borrowed his error, and slammed on a C in the word inplace of the proper K.

This problem is so prevailent that the few franchises that don't copy his error,(E.G: Warhammer, a franchise that I know nothing about) are mistaken as something written by some one trying to to be hip by using the letter K in the place of the proper C (It looks like the trope "Xtremely Kool Letterz"http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XtremeKoolLetterz ).

So to phrase the 4th paragraph in simpler terms: in this case senario, spelling the word right makes you look like a try-hard.

Is Tolkien that guy who ripped off Gary Gygax?

Yup.

Who said that it was correct to use a K? It says on Wikipedia that it was Tolkien that made up the word. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc
In fact, Wikipedia also says that "ork" is simply an alternate spelling to "orc".

 

[Gottesstrafe]

+1 internets to the first person who says what his biggest literary influence was.

(..and no googling )

I think I heard that the bible was a big influence. I wouldn't be able to tell though because I've never read it.

I think it was the poem Beowulf, actually. C.S. Lewis drew more from the Bible with his Jesus-allegory lion.

While not his most grand work, I loved The Hobbit more than the LotR trilogy purely because it had the right balance of rambling descriptiveness and narrative flow.

 

[Monsterfurby]

Admittedly, his writing style is by any sort of modern standard a horrid abomination, based on telling, telling, telling and more telling. But then again, many other great authors were similar, like Victor Hugo, for example.

But one thing that one can not deny is that Tolkien is the creator of what is essentially fantasy in popular culture today. Considering that he was more interested in worldbuilding than in telling a story, I would say he excelled at what he did. Sure, the novels are not the best read ever for the story (for that, read George R.R. Martin, Robert Jordan etc.), but as a travelogue, the description of an original fantasy world, they actually work.

Also that explains why Tolkien insists on telling us the entire background story of the vase in the third row of the cupboard that the Hobbits pass for half an instant on their way to the bathroom in a nameless tavern somewhere in the last swamp east of Bree. (Not an actual example, but you get what I mean.)

I personally like all of his work, including the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, but my favourite fantasy series is probably a tie between The Malazan Book of the Fallen and A Song of Ice and Fire. The only aspect of Tolien's work I don't fully appreciate is the implementation of songs/lyrics. I don't mind a few lyrics in my books, but there is a limit to my interest

You mean you don't want to know all the words to The Bear and the Maiden Fair or The Reynes of Castamere?

I am still waiting for the first live interpretation of the Rains of Castamere.

 

[GrimTuesday]

Also that explains why Tolkien insists on telling us the entire background story of the vase in the third row of the cupboard that the Hobbits pass for half an instant on their way to the bathroom in a nameless tavern somewhere in the last swamp east of Bree. (Not an actual example, but you get what I mean.)

It's one thing to tell us about the vase if it's a brief description but when it goes on for more that three or four paragraphs I'm done with that vase and I want some damn story.

I personally like all of his work, including the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, but my favourite fantasy series is probably a tie between The Malazan Book of the Fallen and A Song of Ice and Fire. The only aspect of Tolien's work I don't fully appreciate is the implementation of songs/lyrics. I don't mind a few lyrics in my books, but there is a limit to my interest

You mean you don't want to know all the words to The Bear and the Maiden Fair or The Reynes of Castamere?

I am still waiting for the first live interpretation of the Rains of Castamere.

So am I. The HBO series would be making a big mistake if they left the songs out. They're not a big deal but at the same time the fans love the little snippet that they know so why the fuck not?

And who are you, the proud lord said,
that I must bow so low?
Only a cat of a different coat,
that's all the truth I know.
In a coat of gold or a coat of red,
a lion still has claws,
And mine are long and sharp, my lord,
as long and sharp as yours.
And so he spoke, and so he spoke,
that lord of Castamere,
But now the rains weep o'er his hall,
with no one there to hear.
Yes now the rains weep o'er his hall,
and not a soul to hear.

Who doesn't want to know the rest of this song?

 

[BennoVonArchimboldi]

To all those who mention the overdescriptiveness, remember that The Lord Of The Rings was written in the 1940s, an era in which there were no televisions (and no CGI), and that much of what he was writing about he was writing about for literally the first time ever. It was a different era, and readers would have had no reference point for many of the elements of his story...in 2010 if you say "elf" then everyone has an image in their mind, but pre-television-age literature relied solely on words to paint its pictures.

That said, he's not a brilliant writer...the entire chapter with the barrow wight was completely unnecessary, for example, and the appearance of the eagles at the end is pretty much the definition of deus ex machina.

That said, I still really enjoyed it.