Tolkien, Overrated?

[coldfrog]

Tolkien is a master of world-building. I have yet to see any other author in any other genre able to create a world with as much detail and history and cohesion as Tolkien has -- that means the world itself, the races inhabiting it, the rules that govern their world, wars and kingdoms, etc. That alone merits him quite a bit of accolade.

If you're into that kind of thing, I can't recommend highly enough the "Malazan Book of the Fallen" series by Stephen Erikson. The world he creates is enormous, ancient, and detailed in ways that are near unbelievable - not to mention that he has done a rare feat of creating a very unique and interesting system of magic use.

 

[stinkypitz]

If not for Tolkien this site probably wouldn't exist.

 

[DanielDeFig]

i personally enjoy the tolkien books, but i do have to wholeheartedly agree with you about his "descriptive" abilities.

I would often stop and look back and notice that i had just read one and a half pages describing how the forest looks, then we move into the forest, only to be stopped by the description of how it looks like inside.

Another criticism i personally have is how Black / White his views of the world are: Orcs = Evil (Because their master is evil and they are orcs), Ents = Good (because they protect nature).

Also, i did not notice this myself, but several of my older family members have pointed out blatant racism in the books. BLACK Orcs of Mordor, are aided by the evil men of the SOUTH and EAST. They attempt to destroy all that is good and holy, which is Middle-Earth, and the infallibly Good elves (With the exception of Sauron, originally an elf Sorcerer) come from the WEST, and it is there they return, along with those who die.

Sigh...The fact that i didn't notice this myself(mainly i wasn't looking for it) makes me feel relatively good about myself. Still, superiority of western culture and race over all others being apparent in a work of fantasy makes me sad.

 

[Latinidiot]

I like his work a lot. To say he was the best would be strange, because I haven't read everything yet.

 

[Jackle_666]

I hugely agree with the original poster. I love fantasy but Tolkien was more interested in foliage than he was plot or character or dialogue. It seemed the only person he was interested in pleasing was himself and became very indulgent to the point of stubbornness over what the audience wanted to read. I know he's incredibly popular, but with today's audience wanting constant gratification and stimuli, it remains a baffling point to me.

 

[Diligent]

My problem with Tolkien is I feel that he draws things out, especially descriptions. Also he has gone so in much detail that it kind of ruins the experience for me. It's one thing to develop you're world but there is such a thing as over developing it. It makes it so the reader is less involved in the telling of the story, you can't even think about what the rock looks because he has already spent half a page describing it.

I totally agree with you, and I had that opinion ever since reading a paragraph long description of a grass-line butting up against a path in the Fellowship of the Ring.
That is actually the only one in the series I have read because I wasn't really motivated to read on...wasn't a fan of his style.
That being said I'm not a huge fantasy fan anyway, and haven't really read too much else...though I've been thinking that I should.

 

[Communist partisan]

I'm a pretty big fan of fantasy yet I hate the Lord of the Rings books and most of Tolkien's other books. To many of my friends who are also fantasy fans this is like blaspheme and I have on quite a few occasions had to defend my opinion in heated argument form.

My problem with Tolkien is I feel that he draws things out, especially descriptions. Also he has gone so in much detail that it kind of ruins the experience for me. It's one thing to develop you're world but there is such a thing as over developing it. It makes it so the reader is less involved in the telling of the story, you can't even think about what the rock looks because he has already spent half a page describing it.

How do you feel about Tolkien? What other writers do you feel are overrated and why?

Edit: I'm not refuting Tolkien's contribution to fantasy as a genre In fact I have admitted that he was a major influence to many of the best authors of our time.

Not overrated, it's overdone.

Btw, good description in books mean the writer is really great, yust look at Fjodor Dostojevskij (that's written in swedish btw....)

He's not only classed as one of the best writers beacose he writed good books but also beacose he described EVERYTHING in a so perfect way so you can imagine how everything look... soo... what I mean he suceeded to make a movie in a book. (talking about Fjodor not Tolkien)

 

[Eurymachus]

Also, i did not notice this myself, but several of my older family members have pointed out blatant racism in the books. BLACK Orcs of Mordor, are aided by the evil men of the SOUTH and EAST. They attempt to destroy all that is good and holy, which is Middle-Earth, and the infallibly Good elves (With the exception of Sauron, originally an elf Sorcerer) come from the WEST, and it is there they return, along with those who die.

Sigh...The fact that i didn't notice this myself(mainly i wasn't looking for it) makes me feel relatively good about myself. Still, superiority of western culture and race over all others being apparent in a work of fantasy makes me sad.

The level of ignorance in so much of this just forced me to register and write a reply. The books are not "blatantly" racist at all. In fact I'd go so far to say that they are not even covertly racist. Firstly, Tolkein personally was not racist, he said that "treatment of colour" in South Africa "horrifies", he also hated and resisted attempts by the Nazis to associate his works with their racialist theories of "Nordics" and their superiority and called Nazi race doctrine "unscientific" and their anti-semitism "wholly pernicious".

As for racism in the books you are simply forgetting or choosing not to name countervailing examples. Perhaps you forget that he mentions the Numenoreans (the "highest" of men) as almost entirely falling into evil ways whilst the Wild Men of Druadan forest (who can hardly represent "civilized" European civilisation) were much more resistant and hardy against evil. Or maybe you aren't remembering how the men of Bree and Forlong's men of Gondor are described as "swarthy", a favoured description used by Tolkein of the Southrons and Haradrim. You must also have forgotten all the evils acts done by very pale people such as Denethor, Boromir, Saruman and Grima: or all the evil "white" things, Saruman the White, the white hand of Saruman and the white "corpse light" of Minas Morgul. Oh and point of fact, Sauron isn't and elf sorceror, he was a Maiar that fell (the equivalent of a lesser angel say). You also forget the sympathy Sam has for the Southrons and his remark that they were probably unwilling slaves and not evil at heart.

Tolkein was not racist and neither were his works, as for the "superiority" of western civilisation I will grant you some of that. But frankly cultural relativism is horsecrap. Western civlization is superior! It has produced the highest living standards, comfort, ease and freedom for more people over a shorter time than anything in history. The average life expectancy in some African countries is 30. The average life expectancy historically in all places was roughly thirty, in the west its now 75, 80 or even higher and still rising. Almost all people have food, shelter, opportunities and people are free to live life as they wish to a staggeringly greater extent than any other time or place. You can be gay, transexual, transgender and not worry about being persecuted or executed by law. Western civ. isnt perfect it still can improve but it is an ongoing process and their has never been a better place or time to be alive. Look around the world, at the foot bindings in China, the stonings in Iran, the execution of gays in the Islamic world, the tribalistic strife and genocides and starvation and disease in Africa and tell me you'd rather live there than here. In short your family are ungrateful idiots and half of them wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for the technological and materiel advances of western civilization.

 

[Fumbleumble]

It's more than just elves, orcs, and dwarves. It's an entire world built around dualities and Antithesis. Good, evil. Fate, Free Will. Death and Immortality and many more. And the way he does it is near poetry.

You are actually quite wrong.

All of what you have mentioned is allegory and Tolkien stated a number of times that he abhored allegory.. it was, in his words, quite simply a good story, anything else is purely in the mind of the reader and unintentional.

I'm aware of this, does not mean it's any less true.

umm, that's EXACTLY what it means :/

I will concede though.. it's not any less true.. in your head.

 

[Fumbleumble]

Tolkien has recieved my scorn because of his insistent misspellings have been borrowed by other fantasy authors.

The word I am talking about is of three letters. The word I am talking about is "Ork"

It annoys me that so many franchises and authors have borrowed his error, and slammed on a C in the word inplace of the proper K.

This problem is so prevailent that the few franchises that don't copy his error,(E.G: Warhammer, a franchise that I know nothing about) are mistaken as something written by some one trying to to be hip by using the letter K in the place of the proper C (It looks like the trope "Xtremely Kool Letterz"http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XtremeKoolLetterz ).

So to phrase the 4th paragraph in simpler terms: in this case senario, spelling the word right makes you look like a try-hard.

Is Tolkien that guy who ripped off Gary Gygax?

Yup.

You need to go bak to school and do some real learnin' boy. And stop believing everything the net tells you.

At THAT time if there was ANYONE in the world who knew how to spell and how to use the English language properly it was Tolkien...

HE TAUGHT English lit and Grammar in one of the most prestigious schools on Earth..

Whereas you are just some random guy on the net with a fraction of Tolkien's education and an Iota of his knowledge, spouting half truths and regurgitations from pages you have probably missed the context in.

Dude.. serioulsy WTF??

As for the winner of the internet.. I was looking for the answer 'Beowulf'.. it coloured everything he wrote... it was HIS LOTR. (Scandinavian lit was a good answer, and accepteble except for the fact that he wasn't a big fan of it all :/)

 

[Octorok]

I'm a pretty big fan of fantasy yet I hate the Lord of the Rings books and most of Tolkien's other books. To many of my friends who are also fantasy fans this is like blaspheme and I have on quite a few occasions had to defend my opinion in heated argument form.

My problem with Tolkien is I feel that he draws things out, especially descriptions. Also he has gone so in much detail that it kind of ruins the experience for me. It's one thing to develop you're world but there is such a thing as over developing it. It makes it so the reader is less involved in the telling of the story, you can't even think about what the rock looks because he has already spent half a page describing it.

How do you feel about Tolkien? What other writers do you feel are overrated and why?

Edit: I'm not refuting Tolkien's contribution to fantasy as a genre In fact I have admitted that he was a major influence to many of the best authors of our time.

Actually, I can see what your point is. Both he and Lovecraft delve into long descriptions. (although, Lovecraft describes for PAGES longer than Tolkien).

That can put the reader off. However, no. He is not overrated in the slightest. His world is an amazing English mythology, with poetic dialogue, songs and beautiful poetry. The man wrote a book so good it changed fantasy, and I know you're talking just about his writing, but it's just the fact that his writing was so good that it completely altered views on fantasy forever.

It doesn't remove you from the story, though. And I think that description, while it can go on, is excellent. You're still imagining it. His description is detailed and rich, and provides a nice frame for you to project on. His detail is extensive but brilliant.

 

[Caspertjuhh]

I am not a fantasy genre kind of guy anyways, but i have read the LOTR triology, and didn;t consider it special or anything...

 

[Nieroshai]

My answer to this: you can dislike whatever you like and your reasons for disliking Tolkien sound legit, but also consider WHY Tolkien is so popular. People like his work, and for good reason.

 

[Nouw]

We all have our dislikes, but you still should acknowledge major figures. Tolkien was practically the father of modern fantasy stories, just like how Shakespeare was for theatre or Freud was for psychology. You may think their works are crap, but you can't deny their influence.

Ooooo /thread.

Without Tolkien, we'd have no elves at all! And maybe even less!

And is that a good thing? trolololo.

But on the Tolkien matter, I think techniclly that he gave us D&D...and I think everyone loves D&D.
Of course D&D has evolved alot but D&D always takes things from LOTR....

If you're asking me if having no elves is a good thing, I should really add that I'm saying without Tolkien, we'd lose a lot of good stuff.

 

[SenseOfTumour]

Controversy time huh?

I'd suggest that while Tolkien is very important certainly the most imfluential fantasy author out there, Pratchett is actually a better writer.

I'm not criticising him, it's plainly obvious he was a great and important author, I just feel Pratchett puts so much more into each book that he writes, and he's written about 30 or so more than Tolkien with a consistently high quality.

 

[The Stonker]

We all have our dislikes, but you still should acknowledge major figures. Tolkien was practically the father of modern fantasy stories, just like how Shakespeare was for theatre or Freud was for psychology. You may think their works are crap, but you can't deny their influence.

Ooooo /thread.

Without Tolkien, we'd have no elves at all! And maybe even less!

And is that a good thing? trolololo.

But on the Tolkien matter, I think techniclly that he gave us D&D...and I think everyone loves D&D.
Of course D&D has evolved alot but D&D always takes things from LOTR....

If you're asking me if having no elves is a good thing, I should really add that I'm saying without Tolkien, we'd lose a lot of good stuff.

Naaah, I love Tolkien, I just don't like elves. ^^

 

[Sinclair Solutions]

You ever listen to, say, the Beatles and wonder what made them so popular? Influence.

The Beatles were popular before they were influential.

But the reason that they are still revered today (like Tolkien is) is because they were influential, right?

 

[Peteron]

The Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit are the greatest fantasy stories out there. I don't really see anything wrong with it, maybe aside the first half of the third.