Tomb Raider: dear god...."the rape scene"...

[someonehairy-ish]

I was really looking forward to that scene after all of Lara's moans and screams up to that point and he barely nudged her :/

Is there a creepiest forum post award? I think you should have it 5ilver. You've earned it.
[sub]Seriously though I would reword that comment before the FBI see it.[/sub]

I'm looking forward to playing this. Can't get on Steam atm 'cos I
stupidly forgot to bring my laptop charger back from uni with me,
so I've only got a shitty PC to work with. Lara now looks more
interesting than she was as mistress triangle-boobs.

 

[havoc33]

Play for just a leeeedle bit longer. It gets a tad worse in the rape department.

Which is really the worst department to work in, other than Human Resources.

Yeah, that controversy was stupid.

So many of them are. People just like to get angry about stuff, however ill-informed about it they actually are, and we end up with these flash-in-the-pan "controversies" that are really quite unimportant. I think it probably comes down to the internet, and the speed at which we receive and spread news. Without a forum or some other mass-sharing system, people would hear news and react at their own pace, but now all it takes is a few people to scream controversy and it'll snowball into a massive flamewar.

You hit it dead on. It really is embarrasing to see what kind of stuff causes 'controversy' and 'uproar' these days. Internet lends a voice to everyone, also the people who have nothing better to do than to complain and feed their own narcissistic selves by getting attention.

Also to blame is the media outlets themselves, who when it comes to their online editions show next to no editorial responsibility at all, and report ANYTHING to get hits on their sites in order to earn more money. But that's the internet for you, you got to take the good with the bad I suppose. I just wish people would be smart enought to see through these types of things for what it is instead of getting caught up in it. The internet should make people smarter and entice critical sense, but in many instances it would seem that the information overkill has the opposite effect.

 

[Legion]

So....you're telling me that so far we've had none of the giant outcries in the last 6 months of misogynistic games actually pan out.

can you re-explain that? what do you mean?

What I mean is that we've had all these outcries over trailers, developer interviews, etc where a hint of sexism was presented in a yet unreleased game. And people were absolutely losing their shit in each instance, and none of the stuff that people flipped out over was actually that bad. I mean the amount of omfg how dare this male use rape as a plot device he should lose his job, the game should sink, he's a misogynistic bastard! And it turned out to really be nothing of concern.
I don't know I think I'm just a little irked at the gaming community and how over reactionary. We get all these articles from different groups condemning video games when this kind of stuff hits the general public, but we never get the articles that are like "hey, we overreacted, it didn't end up being bad."

This is actually what I am beginning to get tired of. The gaming community is starting to feel like the target audience of Fox News or the Daily Mail. Where we are saturated full of stories and headlines of these most "terrible controversies" which almost always turn out to be borderline fabricated, or extremely over the top. Then people rage over them and make these things issues.

Apart from being irritating, they also take attention away from real issues that occur. I mean, on this website I hear about how Lara's non-existent rape scene is a sign that game developers have a problem with misogyny and sexism, yet have not seen anything mentioning the recent news that some British police have been encouraging victims of rape not to report it so the statistics look better. Or the fact that Amazon was selling 'Keep Calm' shirts that said things such as "Keep calm and rape a lot" until recently.

It's why I get so tired of discussions of sexism in gaming more than anything. When a fictional character having larger than average breasts is somebodies idea of a huge problem regarding sexism, I think they need to get a better sense of perspective.

Or to use another example. Remember the #1ReasonWhy campaign?. I wonder how many do. That discussed real controversies and real problems with sexism in the gaming industry, but people forget about that because it's much more fun to complain because some female characters are designed to titillate, rather than have a more important role.

 

[Epic Fail 1977]

Yeah I really don't get a lot of the criticism levelled at the first hour. I agree that the "rape scene" is just... nothing. If it weren't for the furore around it I wouldn't have given it a second thought. There are other criticisms I disagree with as well. For example you said you laughed at how sadistic the game is in the first hour. I've heard that a lot, but don't agree at all. I was playing the game and wondering when the "sadistic" parts I'd heard about were going to make an appearance. Then after a few hours I realised I must have passed those parts and not noticed. Maybe it's because I'm playing this just after finishing the fantastically gory Dead Space 3, I don't know, but I'm struggling to see what the fuss is about.

Critics have also almost unanimously panned Lara's transition from scared girl into headshot master in five minutes flat. Again, I'm at a loss as to what the problem is here. I think Lara's transformation is quite gradual by game standards. Nobody complained when Isaac Clarke (supposedly an engineer) first picked up a Plasma Cutter and instantly became a master at disecting necromorphs. Nobody complained when Gordon Freeman (supposedly a physicist) first picked up a gun and single-handedly fought off an entire special forces unit AND an alien invasion. Nobody complained... actually, need I go on? I think this new TR game is far more believable than most in this regard.

 

[Hiroshi Mishima]

weakness is a GOOD thing..more game charachters should have it

...yes, like Samus?

Also, regardless of the content in the game, it was a terribly handled incident at the time. I think some (or a lot) of you are either downplaying it due to the actual game's content not matching what everyone thought at the time. That's neither the point, nor is it necessary for it to have been so.

When someone releases a trailer implying a main character is going to be raped in order to show "oh, see, they have weaknesses" and "come on, boys, let's all protect her!" that's sending the wrong gods-damned message but also saying, "the only way we know to build female character development is to have her get be sexually assaulted".

Nevermind that Lara used to be quite promiscuous and flirted in the earlier games, her new background is "sexually assaulted, scarred forever, becomes gun-toting treasure hunter". It's almost laughably stupid, really. However, this is definitely the kind of thing we need to stamp out.

Controversial or not, offensive or not, it's still bad form and really needs to be dealt with.

EDIT: Oh yeah, as an afterthought.. did any of you even consider, for a moment, that the game's depictions were in any way .. changed, because of the massive outcry? It sounds like you didn't, which is perhaps another reason you're all failing to see why it was "such a big deal" at the time.

 

[Sexy Devil]

How the scene plays out is entirely irelevant.

The problem is that CD decided to put it right in the middle of the fucking trailer, then they decided to talk about it in an extremely creepy way.

Thing is, the controversy was never really about the scene itself. It's about the way that dev described it. You kind of got the feeling he was typing with one hand, if you take my meaning.

Exactly.

It was their choice to put it in the trailer. It was their choice to talk it up. They wanted to be edgy and adult and score some easy headlines and I'm glad it blew up in their faces.

Did the trailer really bother people that much though? I mean it was floating around for like 13-14 days before the controversy started (I may be wrong about that). It clearly showed Lara getting away without being raped. Seems like the real issue was, as you said, when the article with the creepy phrasing popped up. But the thing is that the developers posted a retraction like two days later saying that the producer was full of shit.

It's just that by that point all the major websites had reported on it, and everybody had already decided that they were angry.

 

[Woodsey]

Play for just a leeeedle bit longer. It gets a tad worse in the rape department.

Although, granted, not anywhere bad enough to undermine any of your points.

Yeah, that controversy was stupid.

Thing is, the controversy was never really about the scene itself. It's about the way that dev described it. You kind of got the feeling he was typing with one hand, if you take my meaning.

Not really. Hardly a shocker that the bond people form with a totally unexperienced, teenage character that they're controlling in third-person should be a protective one. I seem to remember Kotaku subjecting him to some very selective quoting as well.

Also, regardless of the content in the game, it was a terribly handled incident at the time. I think some (or a lot) of you are either downplaying it due to the actual game's content not matching what everyone thought at the time. That's neither the point, nor is it necessary for it to have been so.

When someone releases a trailer implying a main character is going to be raped in order to show "oh, see, they have weaknesses" and "come on, boys, let's all protect her!" that's sending the wrong gods-damned message but also saying, "the only way we know to build female character development is to have her get be sexually assaulted".

People had seen the full scene already around the time of the trailer, but no one gave a shit because panties were already doing The Twist. The people who should be worrying about how they handled things are gamers and journalists.

 

[Fasckira]

On a side note, [user]Vault101[/user] should totally get a column spot here at the Escapist. I find myself looking for these threads if its not on the main page list.

 

[TheDoctor455]

Play for just a leeeedle bit longer. It gets a tad worse in the rape department.

Although, granted, not anywhere bad enough to undermine any of your points.

Yeah, that controversy was stupid.

dammit! why'd you have to go and discredit my entire thread in the first post!?

Thing is, the controversy was never really about the scene itself. It's about the way that dev described it. You kind of got the feeling he was typing with one hand, if you take my meaning.

was that the "protect Lara" thing? or was there more to it than that

eather way I'm not sure making this thread was a good Idea...I would much rather we all forget about it and enjoy the game

That was the 'rape as character development' thing.

EDIT: Or more specifically, 'rape as a character-building experience'. Riiight.

 

[Zhukov]

EDIT: Oh yeah, as an afterthought.. did any of you even consider, for a moment, that the game's depictions were in any way .. changed, because of the massive outcry? It sounds like you didn't, which is perhaps another reason you're all failing to see why it was "such a big deal" at the time.

They didn't.

Everything that was in the trailer was in the game. The scene plays out the exact same way.

 

[Sixcess]

Did the trailer really bother people that much though? I mean it was floating around for like 13-14 days before the controversy started (I may be wrong about that). It clearly showed Lara getting away without being raped. Seems like the real issue was, as you said, when the article with the creepy phrasing popped up. But the thing is that the developers posted a retraction like two days later saying that the producer was full of shit.

It's just that by that point all the major websites had reported on it, and everybody had already decided that they were angry.

The rape quotes put the debacle into high gear and, more importantly, pushed it out into the non-gaming media, but there were some gamers (myself included) who disliked the tone of the trailer well before the story blew up. Personally I didn't even like the first trailer, a year earlier at E3 2011, which didn't have That Scene but did have an awful lot of Lara-tied-up, Lara-in-pain, Lara-moaning-and-whimpering-non-fucking-stop.

As for the retraction, people didn't pay any attention to it because it was a pitifully transparent attempt by CD to cover their own asses when they realised what a shit storm they'd walked into, because there's simply no way that a producer of the game goes out and talks about an "attempted rape scene" unless that was, at the time, exactly what they intended it to be.

 

[SeanSeanston]

How the scene plays out is entirely irelevant.

The problem is that CD decided to put it right in the middle of the fucking trailer, then they decided to talk about it in an extremely creepy way.

HMmm... never played the new TR but you know you're right... I never got the controversy over the scene itself, but I do seem to recall the description being pretty ****ing weird and made me facepalm a bit inside :|

In the sense that it was kind of one of these situations where gender is made out to be overly important out of all proportion and relevance over what's happening. ESPECIALLY where games are concerned...

 

[aguspal]

I am just dropping this here:

Its not Laura croft. Its Lara. LARA. Why the fuck is it so hard for some people to spell?

Or maybe I am just retarded. I dont know anything about Tomb Raider anyway, but I am pretty sure the name of someone dosnt changes with time? xd

 

[Voulan]

I am just dropping this here:

Its not Laura croft. Its Lara. LARA. Why the fuck is it so hard for some people to spell?

Or maybe I am just retarded. I dont know anything about Tomb Raider anyway, but I am pretty sure the name of someone dosnt changes with time? xd

THANK YOU. The amount of posts I've dedicated here just to point this out to people, it's just ridiculous. Laura and Lara aren't even pronounced similarly.

Anyway, I'm glad this has finally cleared up. I spent a good amount of time in those rage threads after the trailer was released trying to defend the scene and point out its actual context. Being a huge fan, and even talking and listing to the podcasts by the devs throughout the whole development process, I knew what the intent was behind it, but people were determined not to see anything other than what they saw. So, we can all move on now.

And anyway, are CD the ones that do their own marketing? Wouldn't Square Enix by the ones to release that sort of content? I know they were the ones behind the first CGI announcement trailer.

 

[goliath6711]

Okay, I'm going to go into my issues with this game and why I have no intention of playing it. And believe it or not, it has absolutely nothing to do with any attempted rape scene.

I've been a fan of the Tomb Raider games since playing the first one on the Sega Saturn. Until this one, I had bought and played every Tomb Raider game with the exception of Angel of Darkness (and despite hearing about how bad it was I still want to play that). The Legend/Anniversary/Underworld trilogy are my favorite games in the franchise despite what popular opinion believes (I never saw anything about the gameplay that said it needed to be scrapped and overhauled). So I had pretty much built up in my mind the type of person that Lara Croft is. (I refuse to use the phrase "badass" because it has long since suffered the same fate as "bling bling".) I have no problem with the idea retooling Lara Croft to bring in a new wave of fans. I have no problem with the idea of showing Lara at an earlier point in her life where she doesn't have all the answers and needs help from others. I have no problems with Lara being shown at a point in her life where she's unsure of herself, not knowledgeable of the dangers she faces and, yes, fearful for her life when she is threatened. All those actually sound like an interesting and unique experience.

But I have HUGE problems with the way this game seems to execute those ideas.

Let's start with Lara's new look. Now I will admit that the previous character design (i.e.: Mega-boobage) caught my attention when I first saw it, but I was very quickly able to look past it to what the character herself is supposed to be. Since then, I've come to look at it the same way as Solid Snake's mullet or Alex Mercer's hoodie, it's just there. Then came the release to show off Lara's new "realistic" look. Now if you're going to choose to do that, then just do it. If you're going to answer the inevitable questions that people will have about the change and why you did it, that's also fine. What you don't do is promote that on the forefront of your advertising among things that you're going to "right the wrongs" the previous games did. And then have media outlets already trumpet this as a godsend despite the fact that it doesn't have any impact on the game itself. All it succeeds in doing is alienating myself as a previous fan by making me look like the only reason I'm a fan is because of the T&A factor, and I don't appreciate that.

So now that you've lost me as a potential customer by insulting the games that made me a fan in the first place and my admiration for them, let's see if you can try to win me back by telling me what differences your game has to offer. And that's when I hear things like "survival horror". And what do I think when I hear "survival horror"? I think of games like Resident Evil, Silent Hill, and Fatal Frame. Games where you're alone in an dark, enclosed environment, wading through tight spaces, constantly being on guard for whatever horror is waiting for you around that dark corner you can't quite see around. This is not something that should be a primary feature in a Tomb Raider game. It can be there in little sporadic moments for tension, but not as the main focus of the game. Then as more details about the game come out, I hear comparisons that it plays like a female version of Uncharted. Let me explain why this is not automatically a good thing. When I play a Tomb Raider game, here's what I commonly expect to see mostly. A vast, wide open area (outdoor or indoor) where I can take the scenery in. Solving large, complicated puzzles to open a pathway into an ancient ruin and avoiding booby traps while engaging in the occasional gunfight to keep you on your toes. It's slow and methodical, but it gives you time to think. Now I haven't played the Uncharted games (I don't own a PS3), but from what I've seen, they're kind of like Tomb Raider but more action oriented. The exotic locales are there, but it seems more concerned with how soon it can get Nathan Drake into shooting something or fighting someone first, and dealing with solving puzzles second. The opening to Uncharted 2 has Drake wake up on a train that's dangling off a cliff and the first thing you need to do is climb up it before it falls. That's great for Uncharted because that's its defining characteristic. That's what separates it from Tomb Raider and gives each game its own identity. And if a brand new game franchise wants to copy elements from either one or both, that's one thing. But to see an established game franchise lose the element that made it unique and try to become a clone of the other?

Well, what would be your response if someone said this: Do you know what fighting games like Street Fighter, Tekken, Virtua Fighter, King of Fighters, Soul Calibur and Dead or Alive need? Over the top gore, the ability to show bones snapping, and mutilating finishing moves that kill your opponent in the bloodiest and most violent way. That would make them so much more awesome. Why not? It works in Mortal Kombat.

And finally, there's the characterization of Lara herself. Now as I said before, I have no problem with Lara being portrayed in her early days as someone whose nervous about being in over her head in dangerous situations. But to go so far to the other extreme? To see her begin to lose it when she accidentally impales herself while trying to escape a trap? To watch her completely flip out when something or someone tries to drag her into a cave that she's trying to get out of? To see her have an emotional breakdown when she realizes that no one is coming to save her and she has to get out this on her own? To watch her apologize to a non-threatening deer she killed as some weak justification for why she will nonchalantly gun down bears, tigers, and wolves that will try to kill her in the future? That's the character development that will lead her into becoming the cool confident thrill-seeking Lara that mostly knows of the potential danger that she can get in and tries to plan ahead for that danger, or can figure her way out of a situation on the fly? This Lara that "didn't seek adventure, adventure sought her"? I'm not buying it. I'm not buying that the Lara we knew started out like this, or that this Lara will become that. This Lara appears to be on her way to becoming a cold-blooded killer who wears a permanent scowl on her face, growls every word she says and is willing to gun down any strange guy that looks at her funny if the local cops happen to be looking the other way. And even if they do try to show little signs that somehow this does become the Lara we know, there's a reason why Batman Begins wasn't just two hours of constant scenes of little Bruce Wayne having pants wetting nightmares of the guy that killed his parents coming after him, only to end with him realizing that he "needed to get his shit together" and leave for his globetrotting training sessions on the hope that there will be a sequel that has him coming back as the Batman that we all know. Now all they had to do was to get me to give this game a chance was to remove this Lara and replace her with another female character. Just have you play as her without changing anything about the game but her name. Create a brand new character, use one of the other female characters in this game's party. Hell, you can still call it Tomb Raider (if a character's name is not in the title of a story, then it's not mandatory that they be in it). But this is Lara Croft we're talking about. If you want me to accept your Lara Croft as more than just some cheap marketing ploy, you better damn sure know what you're doing.

Now I know the argument is going to come up saying that I'm judging the game solely on the trailers and they don't represent the final game. And you're right, they don't represent the final game. But what they do represent are the parts of the game that are supposed to convince me into buying the final game. And in that, they failed miserably. I've read everything up to and including the review of the final game on this site to try and convince me that this game is worth playing. And I'm still not convinced. What if the trailers for The Avengers (Assemble) implied that the movie was nothing but "Watch Scarlet Johansson in tight black leather for two and a half hours"? It doesn't matter if that wasn't what the final product was or not. That's what you advertised your product as. And if you lose potential customers that were on the fence because of that, how is it their fault and not yours?

 

[aguspal]

I am just dropping this here:

Its not Laura croft. Its Lara. LARA. Why the fuck is it so hard for some people to spell?

Or maybe I am just retarded. I dont know anything about Tomb Raider anyway, but I am pretty sure the name of someone dosnt changes with time? xd

THANK YOU. The amount of posts I've dedicated here just to point this out to people, it's just ridiculous. Laura and Lara aren't even pronounced similarly.

So I am REALLY retarded or I just cant seem to find any of your posts in this thread

Oh well. Cool I guess.

EDIT: Or maybe you didnt meant this one thread, maybe it was in other thread XD

 

[Vault101]

...yes, like Samus?

yes like samus..

but not handled poorly like in that [b/]other m[/b]etroid game we wont mention

[quote/]Also, regardless of the content in the game, it was a terribly handled incident at the time. I think some (or a lot) of you are either downplaying it due to the actual game's content not matching what everyone thought at the time. That's neither the point, nor is it necessary for it to have been so.[/quote]
the thing is about marketing/pre game hype controversies is that people pretty much forget them as soon as the game comes out,

[quote/] "the only way we know to build female character development is to have her get be sexually assaulted".[/quote]
I'm just going to say it again...given the context and what they are going for with this charachter it seems fine to me

[quote/]Nevermind that Lara used to be quite promiscuous and flirted in the earlier games,[/quote]
irrelevant...this is a reboot

[quote/]her new background is "sexually assaulted, scarred forever, becomes gun-toting treasure hunter". It's almost laughably stupid, really. However, this is definitely the kind of thing we need to stamp out.[/quote]
eather you didnt play the same game or thats your interpretation...again given the context here I found lara to be both a badass and relatable....she was put into situation that would make most of us cry and probably get eaten by wolves

[quote/]Controversial or not, offensive or not, it's still bad form and really needs to be dealt with.[/quote]
I'd say giving us good strong female protagonists to begin with is somthing that needs to be dealt with...this is a step in the right direction

[quote/]EDIT: Oh yeah, as an afterthought.. did any of you even consider, for a moment, that the game's depictions were in any way .. changed, because of the massive outcry? It sounds like you didn't, which is perhaps another reason you're all failing to see why it was "such a big deal" at the time.[/quote]
1.how much could they change in that amount of time?...really?
2.what e saw in the trailer is what we saw in the game

 

[Vault101]

Okay, I'm going to go into my issues with this game and why I have no intention of playing it. And believe it or not, it has absolutely nothing to do with any attempted rape scene.

you should really play it..its a great game...even if it doesnt change your mind

[quote/]
I have no problems with Lara being shown at a point in her life where she's unsure of herself, But I have HUGE problems with the way this game seems to execute those ideas.

Let's start with Lara's new look. Now I will admit that the previous character design (i.e.: Mega-boobage) caught my attention when I first saw it, but I was very quickly able to look past it to what the character herself is supposed to be. Since then, I've come to look at it the same way as Solid Snake's mullet or Alex Mercer's hoodie, it's just there.[/quote]
thats a cop out....seriously the boobs dont need to be there...its not "awful" that they are there but....but can we just have this one thing? please?

[quote/]Then came the release to show off Lara's new "realistic" look. Now if you're going to choose to do that, then just do it. If you're going to answer the inevitable questions that people will have about the change and why you did it, that's also fine. What you don't do is promote that on the forefront of your advertising among things that you're going to "right the wrongs" the previous games did. And then have media outlets already trumpet this as a godsend despite the fact that it doesn't have any impact on the game itself. All it succeeds in doing is alienating myself as a previous fan by making me look like the only reason I'm a fan is because of the T&A factor, and I don't appreciate that.[/quote]
I guess....but really, theres nothing wrong with wanting to say "you know what? its time for this series to "grow up"

[quote/]So now that you've lost me as a potential customer by insulting the games that made me a fan in the first place and my admiration for them, let's see if you can try to win me back by telling me what differences your game has to offer. And that's when I hear things like "survival horror". And what do I think when I hear "survival horror"? I think of games like Resident Evil, Silent Hill, and Fatal Frame. Games where you're alone in an dark, enclosed environment, wading through tight spaces, constantly being on guard for whatever horror is waiting for you around that dark corner you can't quite see around. This is not something that should be a primary feature in a Tomb Raider game.[/quote]
1. the game is not survial horror, its an emphasis on survival...and even then theres plenty of fun action to be had

2. its called change...it happens, it might upset some poeple, but somtimes in the long run it could be a good thing


[quote/]It can be there in little sporadic moments for tension, but not as the main focus of the game. Then as more details about the game come out, I hear comparisons that it plays like a female version of Uncharted. Let me explain why this is not automatically a good thing. When I play a Tomb Raider game, here's what I commonly expect to see mostly. A vast, wide open area (outdoor or indoor) where I can take the scenery in. Solving large, complicated puzzles to open a pathway into an ancient ruin and avoiding booby traps while engaging in the occasional gunfight to keep you on your toes. It's slow and methodical[/quote]
well it sounds like Tomb raider...though tomb raider might be more action oriented...and again...that thing called change,

you can eather accept it or get into a rage over it

[quote/] Now I haven't played the Uncharted games[/quote]
*facepalm* oh for fucks sake

[quote/] But to see an established game franchise lose the element that made it unique and try to become a clone of the other? [/quote]
if anything uncharted took its cues from tomb raider....

and even if it is like uncharted its better...its more "realistic" and doesnt have a shithead protagonist to ruin it

[quote/]Well, what would be your response if someone said this: Do you know what fighting games like Street Fighter, Tekken, Virtua Fighter, King of Fighters, Soul Calibur and Dead or Alive need? Over the top gore, the ability to show bones snapping, and mutilating finishing moves that kill your opponent in the bloodiest and most violent way. That would make them so much more awesome. Why not? It works in Mortal Kombat.[/quote]
I'd say what the fuck does this have to do with anything? (seriously bad anaolgy)

[quote/]And finally, there's the characterization of Lara herself. Now as I said before, I have no problem with Lara being portrayed in her early days as someone whose nervous about being in over her head in dangerous situations.[/quote]
oh good then...

[quote/]But to go so far to the other extreme?[/quote]
*sigh*...

[quote/]To see her begin to lose it when she accidentally impales herself while trying to escape a trap?[/quote]
she fell on a stick...stuff like that happens, you might not see it in uncharted but again..stuff liek that happens

[quote/]To watch her completely flip out when something or someone tries to drag her into a cave that she's trying to get out of?[/quote]
completly flip out? what would you do in that situation? karate kick them in the face and make a pun about it? no she fights them off and fucking gets out of there...which is better than most of us could do

[quote/]To see her have an emotional breakdown when she realizes that no one is coming to save her and she has to get out this on her own?[/quote]
context context context context CON-MOTHER FUCKING-TEXT

[quote/]To watch her apologize to a non-threatening deer she killed as some weak justification for why she will nonchalantly gun down bears, tigers, and wolves that will try to kill her in the future? [/quote]
she had to kill the dear..I'd feel bad about it

let me tell you somthing, this Lara is not weak,she's badass

why? because she gets stabed, beaten, hunted, has to go through all kinds of crap

[b/]and she gets the fuck up...and keeps going[/b]

despite everything, she keeps going anf [b/]she gets shit done[/b] she tracks down her freinds, she retrives a medical pack from a pack of wolves, she fights off bands of mercinarys, she climbs the top of a radio tower

just because she isnt snaking around like Nathan Drake or making stupid jokes about things doesnt make her any less capable

[quote/]I'm not buying that the Lara we knew started out like this, or that this Lara will become that. This Lara appears to be on her way to becoming a cold-blooded killer who wears a permanent scowl on her face, growls every word she says and is willing to gun down any strange guy that looks at her funny if the local cops happen to be looking the other way.[/quote]
....how do you knwo this? have you played the game? where are you pulling this from?

[quote/] Now all they had to do was to get me to give this game a chance was to remove this Lara and replace her with another female character. Just have you play as her without changing anything about the game but her name. Create a brand new character, use one of the other female characters in this game's party. Hell, you can still call it Tomb Raider (if a character's name is not in the title of a story, then it's not mandatory that they be in it). But this is Lara Croft we're talking about. If you want me to accept your Lara Croft as more than just some cheap marketing ploy, you better damn sure know what you're doing.[/quote]
DONT CHANGE ANYTHING!! IT HURTS MY BRAIN!

look, I know I'm being an ass here...but seriously...why can't they take a new look at a charachter? why can't they reimagin her? you said it yourself you didnt have a problem with it in theory

the sad fact is we wouldnt get a game like this if it didnt have that name/brand attatched to it, weather or not this game will help change anything I dont know..and if it was a new charachter everyone would complain that it wasnt Lara

[quote/]Now I know the argument is going to come up saying that I'm judging the game solely on the trailers and they don't represent the final game. And you're right, they don't represent the final game. But what they do represent are the parts of the game that are supposed to convince me into buying the final game. And in that, they failed miserably. ?[/quote]
I said before people tend to forget marketing/hype controversys..because in the end when the game gets released it doesnt matter

again...I seriously think you should play the game before you go on big tangents about how you *think* the charachter is handled