Too much diversity.

[loa]

Personally I don't get needing to look like a character to be able to be immersed, as I said earlier, I play what is as different as possible from myself irl.

The thing is that idea doesn't really work, if it did then we would have a lot more female and black leads. Keep in mind the population of the US is roughly 50% female and 15% black. Yet we see an overwhelming amount of game characters just being some variation of white dude.

I don't think this is about what "works", if you look at portfolios of concept artists, you will most likely be able to tell their ethnicity by the amount of non-caucasian characters they display.
White ones tend to fall into the trap of making pretty much everyone white.

 

[djdomain]

The difference between real diversity and 'diversity' pushed by the PC pretentious is their version is similar to tokenism, only they need to bang on about ethnicity/sexuality in every character as though having every possible spectrum represented makes you more enlightened and smarter. True equality means nobody gives a damn about these, the only factors for judgement are competence and attitude, and there is no combination of race/gender that has a monopoly on either positive or negative attributes to these.

 

[Totenkreuz]

Didn't watch the video, but I would just like to say that a game can be good. But it can be "better" if there are more options. And, ofcourse I mean more options as in more things that fit the theme etc, not just more of something/anything.

I might have fun with a game, but I also might have more fun with a game with more options. But I mostly take this on a game to game basis so I can't just say "this is better.". In the end, I wouldn't use a dot or limit as a good thing. For me, I just feel like there never is enough of a good thing. I can't remember such a situation, but I'm not 100% sure as I'm writing this so take it as you will.

Cheers.

EDIT: changed ONE letter. And then left this whole row of letters from that little thing, don't know if this is some sort of likness to the topic, probably not, but hey, I'm still finding it amusing to write so.

 

[Dragonbums]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that it's bad that these people are worried about diversity. Heavens no! I'm wondering whether or not it's representative of the actual problem. Their opinions are valid, but what is their value?

I mean, every problem has as much value as the people behind it want to ascribe. It's hard to really make this a majority problem, when minorities complaining about such things are already a minority demographic to begin with. I mean, the games industry certainly doesn't lose out on much of anything if they heighten the percentage of minorities, women, and LGBTQ+. Unless of course your one of the people that INSIST these things don't matter and proceed to get oddly mad when Bioware or some other company add so much as two trans people in their videogames...you know, because it doesn't matter.

Maybe for every woman who has a problem with lack of female characters, there's a hundred who just don't care.

There will always be people of a minority group who don't care, and that's honestly their perogative. Hell we even have someone in this thread who is a black male and he stated he couldn't give two shits. I'm not calling him out. That's entirely his prerogative and there is nothing wrong with that.
Similarity you will have many women who don't care about women representation in games. For what reason we also don't know. Maybe they see games as such a benign little time waster that they can waste their energy on better things in regards to women representation. For instance I care about women being represented in videogames, but I'm not really going to care all that much about the lack of women in say- the dentistry industry. The same can apply vice versa.

In general this entire discussion can be described as that. Most people who play videogames legitimately don't give a shit about this discussion in the slightest. Whether it's for or against diversity. It takes a certain amount of investment in videogames to sign up to gaming centric forums to talk about videogames.
And if your someone who takes gaming seriously and see it something so much more than a timewaster hobby, then I personally believe that naturally you would be concerned when certain demographics, viewpoints, and sexualities are grossly under represented if at all because it deprives the medium as a whole of a breath of fresh air.

Or maybe it's the other way around. Are we talking about vocal minorities here, or does a large group of people actually feel left out by a lack of diversity? I just don't know, but I would like to know.

I mean, let's be quite honest here, if I really felt all that left out due to videogames poorly representing black female characters I certainly wouldn't be here talking about games, because videogames from the get-go never showed any appeal to me. When your someone like me, you just gotta learn to basically tune it to the background and deal with it. So naturally being told by others who are against this whole diversity thing to "deal with it" are pointless because since the moment I've picked up a controller at 6 years old I have been essentially chocking it down. It's only a problem now, because I have the means to express my dissatisfaction and it can actually gain traction as opposed to just shouting down into the void.

It makes my day just a little more brighter when I find out a popular AAA game allows me to make my own character. Because I get the once in a blue moon leisure to make someone who looks like me- the heroine of the story. It makes me super happy, when a AAA dev chooses, of their own will to make a main lead POC, a women, or someone who is on the LGBTQ+ spectrum because it shows that our representation really is worth that.
I wish I could have the luxury of stuff like this being so common as to not even matter anymore. Like most white gamers are with white, gruff dude with a stubble. So comfortable they are with the status quo that even the slightest change is a cause for alarm to beat down those controlling "Social Justice Googlers".

I mean, maybe we ARE a vocal minority, and it's impossible for us to not be because we are a minority demographic to begin with. But we are now a big enough minority that companies are seeing us a worthy asset to reign in. A demographic of 30% can still rake in another solid hundreds of thousands to a good million dollars of profit for a company. Why do you think EA is so willing to let Bioware add all the bisexuals, homosexual, and trans characters as they want? They practically have an uncompeted market for this minority demographic. Is it any wonder that they would even use that as marketing material? You get on the good side of a pro LGBTQ+ group, and they can go a long way of giving you good exposure for being inclusive of various undermined groups. And those that appreciate being included will go a long way of recommending it to others who may of been uninterested in the first place.

 

[TallanKhan]

For me it is very dependant on the game, if a game has a protagonist who is a character in their own right then it doesn't really bother me what their race or gender is, I'm no less comfortable playing Tomb Raider than Uncharted.

That said, if the game is an RPG with a character creator, or otherwise expects me to create or project a personality onto a protagonist, that is a different kettle of fish. In that situation I want to control who my character is, not necessarily because I want to play as "me" but I do want to be able to create a character as I imagined them.

 

[Dragonbums]

They already can be!

All you need to do is find (or create) a game on Kickstarter with this aim and fund it! Tadaa!

Because everybody has the skills, money, time, and dedication to kickstart a videogame right?...

Come on. Take this seriously. Don't basically make a shut down argument on me.

By that logic I can dismiss all those who didn't like Splatoon having no voice chat to just shut up and make a Kickstarter campaign to make another game about shooter squids WITH voice chat.

Or if you don't like how broken AssCreed Unity was, instead of complaining about it you should make a KS campaign to make a game just like AssCreed but not broken.

There are a bazillion reasons why this notion is a blatant fallacy, and it seems that you've been on discussions like this long enough to see this line of thinking trounced.

 

[Fallow]

Humans are extremely quick to both categorize an "other" and then dehumanize them. Sometimes, slightly. Sometimes, severely. But, it's a well documented fact. From just people who root for a different sports team than you, to people who have a darker skin tone than you. Fill in the blanks with whatever else. I trust that you have enough knowledge of, well, all of human history to just accept this and the consequences that can result.

Seems like a logical assessment. I will however say that you cannot draw consequences from this as the only causal factor as there are many many reasons that play into such things.

If someone is say, geographically isolated from people that aren't "them" so to speak, e.g. you live in a predominantly WASP, well-off, neighborhood, then media grants you access to people that aren't you. Thus people are granted more chances to empathize with the "other" and are less prone to dehumanize them. Now, likely, the best way to empathize is with face-to-face real people. But, ya know. Take it where you can get it. Humans can be laughably simple. And even challenging small, dumb opinions here and there, like black people are all criminals or women are all fragile, emotional wrecks, by giving you a way to put yourself in the shoes of that "other" as a more positive role model, leads to more harmonious relations all around. It also helps if you catch people young, before dumb opinions get hard coded in and seeing anything to the contrary just makes their brain implode and therefore less likely to change their opinions even evidence, which is also a documented thing. Stupid humans. How have they survived this long...?

This plays into a lot of different things. First, that we cannot understand (or subconsciously perceive) reality and fiction as distinctly different. The answer to this question (there are many many many studies on this) is 'YES', humans clearly perceive a difference between reality and fiction. Thus, this empathising with human beings does not align with empathising in a game. It also goes into terrible Thompson territory...
Second, this requires that games cause effects in our real-life behaviour. This ties in with Thompson (GTA causes violence etc), another person I don't want to mention (GTA causes sexism etc), and a very recent study (one amongst several) that concludes games do not cause violence/sexism (and probably not similar things either[footnote]speculation again[/footnote]). In short, games do not affect those positive outcomes you describe (Though I wonder how society would look today if media did have such impact).

Reading this, it seems as if you have great intentions, but the data doesn't support the conclusion. If you have other data I would like to see it though, as I am genuinely curious as to the arguments (the logic in particular) behind the benefits of video game diversity.

And that's why many people kind of facepalm at the notion of basically no one except gritty, white men allowed to be the heroes all the time. Because if that's all you ever see, and you have no data that states otherwise, your brain will take to that notion and hold onto it as how the world works. Maybe it's okay if you yourself are a gritty, white male. But, it's not so good for your self-esteem if you're not that. Hell, I'd say that even Japan needs a good slap to the face with the diversity stick.

So, diversity and more visibility can help in ways that are not just personal preference. One single game doesn't have to have all of the colors of the wind. But, it'd be nice to be able to take a sample size of 100 or so and not be forced to cringe.

This is the same as above, though also I will try to find a long-twitter thing by Adrian Chmielarz that answers this exact question very well.

 

[Ninjafire72]

The reason why so many protagonists are white males is simple, when you think about it: because the people making the games are also white males. If a writer wants to create a new main character to write about, they're going to utilise their own knowledge (i.e what's familiar / relatable to them) to do so. Of course we're going to end up with another Marcus Fenix if most designers and writers are from the 80s / 90s, where the steroid-jacked, one-liner-sputing action heroes of yesteryear like Arnie and were the norm in TV and cinema.

In fact, I can't think of a single prominent figure in the Games Industry who is a minority. People like Shinji Mikami and Suda51 do come to mind, but they've got their own influences with the weird Japanese filter on everything they touch.





Now do we really NEED diversity? Not really. it would be nice if it was there, but it's not a necessity. Lack of diversity is honestly a relatively minor barrier, and most people would have no trouble just ignoring the race / gender of their avatar and just engaging in that avatar's story.

That being said, I do agree with the video saying it's an interesting design choice; forcing a player to be black despite their actual race may very well open their eyes to the difference in treatment that black people receive. I don't think Rust's case is a 'look at us we're so inclusive and diverse!' thing, it's more of a social experiment to try and increase awareness / empathy towards others.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

I didn't watch the video yet, so can't comment about it. I'm leaving the post to "bookmark" the thread since I have to go on an exam right now.
But from the looks of OP's post, I don't see how people can not get into a game just because the protagonist isn't like them. I've played as an a fat plumber with an Italian accent, a blond cute elf that people keep calling the wrong name, a dog (is that what Crash is?), a dragon, a rat, a freaking glove (that's right, just a freaking glove, not even a living thing!) and many more things that aren't even human, especially not white males. I'm gay and I don't have absolutely any problems with playing a straight male character, or a female character.

I don't understand, do people really need to self-insert into a character to "get into the game"?

 

[Ishigami]

If you don't feel like watching it, I'll just mention one thing it says. In a certain game your race is randomly selected, some players had complaints about not being able to get into the game because they couldn't make a character who looked like them. The extra credits people then make the point that, what about all those gamers who aren't white and male, they might be having the same issues with games.

Anyway, thoughts?

I haven't watched the video since I don't want to support Extra Credits thru my views anymore so I'm now assuming you just told me the whole story.

My first thought: How does complaining not being able to choose your race automatically lead to the conclusion you're a white male?
I mean it could be an Afro-American man complaining he has to play as a Chinese girl for all I know.
In short: Does not compute.

Second thought: Only a moron would argue that worsening the situation for one group of people is equal to improving the situation for another group of people.
We should strive to improve the situation for people who are off worse and not drag everyone down.

Third thought: If you have all kinds of options in your game why not let players choose what they want? That way everyone wins.

 

[Gizen]

Not going to bother much with this, but I'll give it a quick rundown.

vehemently opposing.... hostility... strawman this... strawman that.... being dismissed...

seriously? No one is persecuting you. Noone is being hostile. Your attempts being dismissed is only because you make outrageous claims and strawman arguments.

Nobody is being hostile HERE, but people aren't just talking about here and this group of people on this message board right now. There are plenty of people who are hostile about this. You're also going about proving his statements aren't strawmen at all. You've said you're all for variety, and yet you're also demanding a reason why it's needed. When one is provided, you say 'oh, well that's just opinion. You don't need it, you want it'. Which is a dismissive attitude when referring to an industry that exists only as a series of wants and desires. You are literally just using semantics to degrade an argument. At the end of the day though, nothing related to video games qualifies as a need, it's all just wants, in which case, wanting it to be different is as valid a justification as one ever needs for demanding change.

 

[Worgen]

Personally I don't get needing to look like a character to be able to be immersed, as I said earlier, I play what is as different as possible from myself irl.

The thing is that idea doesn't really work, if it did then we would have a lot more female and black leads. Keep in mind the population of the US is roughly 50% female and 15% black. Yet we see an overwhelming amount of game characters just being some variation of white dude.

I don't think this is about what "works", if you look at portfolios of concept artists, you will most likely be able to tell their ethnicity by the amount of non-caucasian characters they display.
White ones tend to fall into the trap of making pretty much everyone white.

Perhaps, but you are forgetting that while most of them might be white, most of what they draw will also be women.

 

[Mutant1988]

seriously? No one is persecuting you. Noone is being hostile. Your attempts being dismissed is only because you make outrageous claims and strawman arguments.

You insist on those wanting diversity proving that it's warranted to have it (While you make an arbitrary distinction between diversity and variety) and when people express a wish to have it, you dismiss it as invalid because it's just "opinion".

Read it. Not a single one of your claims can be backed up by that editorial (and not a single attempt is made either, it's not even on the topic you use it for). Not to mention that it's an editorial, i.e. opinion piece. There's not a single word in there dedicated to explaining why children must be taught to appreciate diversity via childrens books.

It points out the issue of having a large part of the actual audience not represented in the media they engage with and how that skewers perceptions and expectations. Or rather, it points out how any attempt at challenging the norm, by wanting to put someone relate-able to a different (And sizeable) segment of the audience, is shut down. Why? Because it's not relate-able. So obviously someone thinks it matters, even if it's just the people deciding what books, movies and games are published.

One of the cited articles brings up the issues with lacking representation in media. I really wish I could find the original article I read on the subject (And another article about how the plots of nearly all movies showing black men and white women in relationships are about overcoming racism), but it's long gone from my search history.

As for the "vehement hostile opposition?" That's not referring to you. You're just being arrogantly dismissive, not hostile.

How about you provide me with a study that proves that there is a positive benefit to not change anything? Because as it is, you only seem opposed to change for the sake of it.

Do you believe diversity will hurt gaming? If so, how?

 

[Fallow]

They already can be!

All you need to do is find (or create) a game on Kickstarter with this aim and fund it! Tadaa!

Because everybody has the skills, money, time, and dedication to kickstart a videogame right?...

Come on. Take this seriously. Don't basically make a shut down argument on me.

By that logic I can dismiss all those who didn't like Splatoon having no voice chat to just shut up and make a Kickstarter campaign to make another game about shooter squids WITH voice chat.

Or if you don't like how broken AssCreed Unity was, instead of complaining about it you should make a KS campaign to make a game just like AssCreed but not broken.

There are a bazillion reasons why this notion is a blatant fallacy, and it seems that you've been on discussions like this long enough to see this line of thinking trounced.

Meh, maybe that was uncalled for. I apologise. I do get overly irate when I see anyone playing victim, and that is how I read the post I was replying to.

I didn't like how buggy AssCreed 1 was, and so I stopped playing that series.
I think Splatoon was that game where you can shadowstep in the colour you splurge everywhere, right? That seemed fun. Is it out on PC now?

Anyhoo, if I get a second chance on the ball, you do have economic power if nothing else, and there is now[footnote]speculaaaaaaating[/footnote] greater pressure than ever to represent X in gaming.
This is a golden opportunity to get together and fund games that aim specifically at representing X.

Big bidness is probably not going to jump on an unproven boat, so funding a few successful indies on the topic might be the ticket to getting mainstream support (by showing that it's a financially viable audience or at least doesn't negatively impact the current audience).
The more positive the message, the easier it will be to get across.

This isn't intended as a put up or shut up, but rather "here's an opportunity". It is unlikely you will find a better time to show viability, since the whole diversity train will eventually drift off when the next big thing catches on (and right now you have massive media support).

 

[Fallow]

Not going to bother much with this, but I'll give it a quick rundown.

vehemently opposing.... hostility... strawman this... strawman that.... being dismissed...

seriously? No one is persecuting you. Noone is being hostile. Your attempts being dismissed is only because you make outrageous claims and strawman arguments.

Nobody is being hostile HERE, but people aren't just talking about here and this group of people on this message board right now. There are plenty of people who are hostile about this. You're also going about proving his statements aren't strawmen at all. You've said you're all for variety, and yet you're also demanding a reason why it's needed.

Not variety, diversity. I want to know what the support is for diversity being needed in videogames, since that was taken as obvious. If someone wants diversity, that is one thing (reflecting personal desire). When someone claims diversity is needed (or necessary, or beneficial) that is not a personal preference. If you feel this is pure semantics, I think we should agree to disagree.

 

[Beliyal]

Why exactly is diversity good or necessary? I keep seeing posts about needing more diversity in games, but I've never seen any arguments for why we need more diversity in games (I've heard opinions, but not arguments).

Is it just "common sense", like "games causes sexism"?

Why is it "bad" with a game of all black/white/yellow people? Why must all colors (not to mention genders, disabilities, and body sizes) be included? What is the benefit?

Let me start by saying that I have no problems immersing myself in playing characters who don't look like me. I got used to it a long time ago, being a woman (and short. And not conventionally attractive. And not having a body of a model).

However, at one point I start feeling the saturation of the same-looking characters, which gets me thinking "Why use the look that's been featured in dozens of other games in a similar way and not use something else?" To ask you in the same manner: what is the benefit of NOT having diversity?

The benefit, to me, would be a fair representation due to the fact that there are many different people playing video games. Of course, personal preferences are also the reason. Let's take women as an example. The percentage of women in the year 2012 in the USA was 50.8% [http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.TOTL.FE.ZS/countries?display=default]. In the same year, according to one study [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_representation_in_video_games#Prevalence], the percentage of games with a female-only protagonist was 4%. That's weird. You might say that's because the percentage of women playing games is also very low, but I don't think it's as low as 4% and there's the interesting fact that many men actively choose to play as women whenever they can. So, the market is certainly there. But this discrepancy still exists. It's kinda unfair, don't you think? And not only that, it's just plain strange.

Now, I don't think that every game ever should include all the diversity. That's just stupid. There will always be homogeneous games for whatever reasons (for example, you won't put women or disabled people in an ancient Roman legion, though you can safely include non-white people). The issue is that when they are homogeneous, it's always in the same way. Perhaps I'm wrong, but there's infinitely more video games where the cast is entirely or majorly white-only (and also male) and not that many video games where the cast is entirely or majorly female or black or yellow or LGBT. I'm sure there are some, but I believe we can agree in the assessment that they are a tiny minority.

In this day and age, to me, it's a given that video games are played by a huge variety of people, so it would be fair for that to be reflected in video game characters. And the more this goes on (not having diversity), the stranger it becomes. At this point, people are wondering if there's something more behind it. So what's really the issue here?

 

[Fallow]

You insist on those wanting diversity proving that it's warranted to have it (While you make an arbitrary distinction between diversity and variety) and when people express a wish to have it, you dismiss it as invalid because it's just "opinion".

No, I insist those claiming that diversity is self-evidently beneficial or necessary in videogames show something to support that claim. Why would I demand that someone justify a personal preference? Is it even possible to do so?

How about you provide me with a study that proves that there is a positive benefit to not change anything? Because as it is, you only seem opposed to change for the sake of it.

I don't need to since I've never made such a claim.
Change/Progress is inevitable, and thus not changing anything is impossible.

Do you believe diversity will hurt gaming? If so, how?

I don't think diversity will do anything at all to gaming, but I have been wrong in the past.

Diversity will come as a natural result of the gaming industry expanding to different regions. Africans will make African games with African protagonists that appeal more to Africans. China will make Chinese games with Chinese protagonists that appeal to China. Japan will make Japanese games with rapist squid protagonists that appeal to the Japanese.

For a supporting data point (so not very significant), look at Polen. TW3 is most "representative" of slavic culture, and CDPR is a polish company. For more data points, someone with a thing for Japanese games might intercede on my behalf.

That's my conservative view on the matter.

 

[The_Darkness]

Why exactly is diversity good or necessary? I keep seeing posts about needing more diversity in games, but I've never seen any arguments for why we need more diversity in games (I've heard opinions, but not arguments).

Is it just "common sense", like "games causes sexism"?

Why is it "bad" with a game of all black/white/yellow people? Why must all colors (not to mention genders, disabilities, and body sizes) be included? What is the benefit?

The short, easy answer?

There are members of the audience who would like to see more diversity. That's it - the demand is there. At the end of the day, that's why the conversation is happening.

I mean, heck, I like RPGs. I like Action Adventures. I don't need arguments for why I like those things - I just do like them. And, similarly, I would like to see a bit more diversity in the cast of these games. Do I actually need to justify that desire?

EDIT: Just realised that the personal preference argument has already come up - I guess I'm just echoing it

 

[Fallow]

Why exactly is diversity good or necessary? I keep seeing posts about needing more diversity in games, but I've never seen any arguments for why we need more diversity in games (I've heard opinions, but not arguments).

Is it just "common sense", like "games causes sexism"?

Why is it "bad" with a game of all black/white/yellow people? Why must all colors (not to mention genders, disabilities, and body sizes) be included? What is the benefit?

The short, easy answer?

There are members of the audience who would like to see more diversity. That's it - the demand is there. At the end of the day, that's why the conversation is happening.

I mean, heck, I like RPGs. I like Action Adventures. I don't need arguments for why I like those things - I just do like them. And, similarly, I would like to see a bit more diversity in the cast of these games. Do I actually need to justify that desire?

Not at all. But you are saying that you want diversity, not that it's necessary. I am only asking for reasons why it's needed.
Likewise, demand does not mean that it's good, only that it is desired. Heroin is in demand as well, after all.
I too am seeing a greater demand than ever (in my limited view of the gaming community), and I'm wondering when someone will capitalise on this.

 

[Amaror]

It's always worthy of a few chuckles how many people will declare that "race/gender doesn't matter" when they're playing games, but the moment someone makes it mandatory for them to play a non-white, non-male character, suddenly it does matter, because they're "forcing" diversity. Son, I'm forced to play a dude the overwhelming majority of the time I play any game with a set protagonist. And yes, it is almost always a straight white dude to boot. You can't have your cake and eat it too: claim that that's fine that so many set protagonists are Video Game Steve because Video Game Steve's race/gender "doesn't matter," then cry to high heaven every time you don't have a choice but to play someone who doesn't share the same race or gender as Video Game Steve.

Really? Because i haven't seen anyone here complaining about Tomb Raider "forcing diversity". Or any other game that has a protagonist that is not white and male. What i have seen is people complaining about other people. Most of the people that say that "race/gender doesn't matter" are not doing so in opposition to games that feature non white-male protagonists. Their doing so in opposition to people that demand developers to introduce characters that are not white or male. That is what people have a problem with. It's also fine to say that you would like to have protagonists that are not white or male. The demanding part is the problem with controversies like the Unity thing a while back.

To offer a reason why many developers might not be so keen on featuring more non white-male characters, you just have to look how characters that are neither white or male are often received if their not perfect and the most competent person on the planet.
If you write a white-male character he can be anything and everyone's fine with it. He can be lazy, untalented, weak and clumsy and noone has any problem with it. Make that same character now a women or a poc and you immediatly have people complaining that you are making some king of offensive statement about all representatives of that ethnicity/gender with that one uncompetent character.
Just look at Dying Light. The character Jane is a woman and pretty much the most badass character in the entire game. She rescues the main character over and over again. But because she is in a position were she needs help just ONCE, she's suddenly a damsel in distress and a sexist and evil portrayal of women.