Too much diversity.

[sageoftruth]

I think a major factor is that Rust wasn't always this way (That is true right? I've never played Rust). I'm guessing that if Rust started out with randomized characters from the get-go, complaints would be far fewer. Complaining about a feature removed from a game is nothing new.

 

[deleted_by_strongbad]

I constantly feel like I can't identify with the character, but it has never had to do with the character not looking like me. For me, most of the connection I feel to a character is based on the way the story is told, 'voice,' semantics, and word choice of my character's dialog if it is just text, and if the dialog is audio, it is dumb and I don't know why, but the sound of the character's voice plays a huge role. The dialog could be a masterpiece, and the voice actor extremely talented, but if the voice has some indescribable and unknown factor set I cannot get into it, the opposite is also true where some voices suck me in regardless what it is saying. I haven't been able to identify any particular trait(s) that do this, I've found voices that I could identify with but hated, and ones I loved but couldn't connect with.

The first 2 reasons I connect I can understand, I have no idea why the voice has such a huge impact, so while I don't understand why someone not looking like their character can ruin their connection to it I totally get that it may.

I'd love to see a study that examines the different ways people identify with different characters.

 

[Lupine]

You know, this sounds like an artistic choice on the part of the developers. I thought we weren't allowed to complain about the developers making the game they wanted to make?

Or is that only when those choices align with what you wanted from them? I mean, that would make it an intellectually dishonest argument. But what do I know?

That's making the assumption that developers are actually getting to make the games they want to make and not the massive marketing teams and corporate overlords to which they are beholden. You know, sort of like what happened with the Last of Us Ellie on the box debate or the Bioshock Infinite cover art change. If creators got to create in a vacuum then there would be no questions, however no such vacuum exists.

As for not being allowed to complain...I wish someone had told me that sooner so that I wouldn't have had to complain to Capcom about $4 costumes that once upon a time were free unlocks for beating the game...I mean if it is the game the developers wanted to make, then I'm sure they'd have given us those costumes or not, so I was just being rude by questioning their or their publisher's motives.

Also intellectually dishonest arguments aren't new nor are they likely to go away anytime soon.

 

[marioandsonic]

I never saw the point of saying you need to have the protagonist of a game to look like you in order to truly be immersed and to make the game more enjoyable. I was able to enjoy Prototype 2, even though the main character is black. And it's not like I'm be able to do the things in Prototype 2 in real life anyway, such as gliding, running up walls, and turn my limbs into various shapes and forms.

Also, in the video, they said that they're only one male body type? I find that insulting.

Rust developers, why can't I play as a fat guy, just like I am in real life? I can't get immersed like this! Why do you hate fat people, Rust?! #FatShaming

 

[Pax Romana]

I am white and male but I don't look like the standard grizzled handsome protagonist, unfortunately. Now if I was a feminist I would have a moan about body expectations or some other nonsense but I won't because I don't care. I could also double down and be super progressive and say some nebulous stuff about ''diversity'' as is the fashion. I can enjoy a game just fine when I am a black man or a teenage girl, as I was in two games I completed, and quite enjoyed, this year.

Also how do the people who made the video know that it was only white men who complained about the character being randomised? They cant possibly know they just assume so because it supports their point of view.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

the big deal is choice being taken away because the developer didnt like our choice.

You say that like you want every game to be like that. If that were the case, the other people pushing for diversity couldn't get just some of the games to be less straight white guy lead.
I mean most non-extremists just want a slice of the pie, not the whole thing.

They already got the slice of the pie. but most seem to want to have the pie and eat it too.

Lets be real, here. That "slice" is so small that it'd tick off a lot of people that get stuck with it. It's not even really a slice, it's a crumble of the crust.
When that cruddy little piece is given, it's met with a lot of hostility from people who hate that they're getting that much. Look at the comments section of most any Fifa 16 announcements of giving female teams for some examples of this. That's a lot of what minorities see when they get catered to at all.

There's very little to eat from that not even a real slice of the pie, and the people being served, and seeing hostility over it are starved for more.

The slice is big enough to get fat from. Females are 50% of the population (less if we consider that china has managed to push worldwide trends into males bieng the majority, but the difference is quite irrelevant in size). More than 50% of games that have humans as main protagonists are either female protagonist or allows you to choose protagonists sex. In fact, only 34% of such games are exclusively male protagonists. while that is bigger than exclusive female protagonist, certainly you cant claim that 66% representation for 50% of population is too small.

I dont play sports games so i dont know what happened to Fifa 16, care to elaborate?

Having read ahead, you can't provide your study, so with that said, I'm keeping to my personal observations which is absolutely NOWHERE near a 50/50 split for any gender, or any minority vs the straight white guy, usually a brunette. If it the idea of your study weren't so baldface wrong there might have beena hope of giving the benefit of the doubt, but it's not happening, bluntly.
I keep my fingers on the pulse of gaming across platforms, across genres, and I keep trying to learn coz I keep an eye out for female playable characters. Not saying you don't, but you seem willing to cut sports games out because you don't play them.

Fifa 16's hostility towards inclusion?
https://twitter.com/EverydaySexism/status/603937660378488832?utm_source=fb&fb_ref=Default&utm_content=604168906110959616&utm_campaign=AngryJoeShow&utm_medium=fb
Tip of the iceberg there. It's not just Fifa, that's basically the hostility any speak of inclusion gets.

I don't play sports games often myself, and if I do, they have some female players, but I keep my ear to the ground.

Captcha: Lucky you
I wish.

 

[Strazdas]

Having read ahead, you can't provide your study, so with that said, I'm keeping to my personal observations which is absolutely NOWHERE near a 50/50 split for any gender, or any minority vs the straight white guy, usually a brunette. If it the idea of your study weren't so baldface wrong there might have beena hope of giving the benefit of the doubt, but it's not happening, bluntly.
I keep my fingers on the pulse of gaming across platforms, across genres, and I keep trying to learn coz I keep an eye out for female playable characters. Not saying you don't, but you seem willing to cut sports games out because you don't play them.

Fifa 16's hostility towards inclusion?
https://twitter.com/EverydaySexism/status/603937660378488832?utm_source=fb&fb_ref=Default&utm_content=604168906110959616&utm_campaign=AngryJoeShow&utm_medium=fb
Tip of the iceberg there. It's not just Fifa, that's basically the hostility any speak of inclusion gets.

I don't play sports games often myself, and if I do, they have some female players, but I keep my ear to the ground.

Captcha: Lucky you
I wish.

Thats fair. I would like to point out that i never claimed there was equal representation for minorities, merely for genders. please do not mix these statements.

Now normally i would automatically ignore anything from that twitter handle because they already proved themselves to know fuck all about sexism, but i gave it a benefit of the doubt and read it. Looks like cherrypicking from multiple sites and even then the best they could come up with is "we asked for better gameplay you gave us women". Sounds like EA not knowing its audience again to me. If thats the "hostility speak" inclusion gets wow do you have it easy.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Having read ahead, you can't provide your study, so with that said, I'm keeping to my personal observations which is absolutely NOWHERE near a 50/50 split for any gender, or any minority vs the straight white guy, usually a brunette. If it the idea of your study weren't so baldface wrong there might have beena hope of giving the benefit of the doubt, but it's not happening, bluntly.
I keep my fingers on the pulse of gaming across platforms, across genres, and I keep trying to learn coz I keep an eye out for female playable characters. Not saying you don't, but you seem willing to cut sports games out because you don't play them.

Fifa 16's hostility towards inclusion?
https://twitter.com/EverydaySexism/status/603937660378488832?utm_source=fb&fb_ref=Default&utm_content=604168906110959616&utm_campaign=AngryJoeShow&utm_medium=fb
Tip of the iceberg there. It's not just Fifa, that's basically the hostility any speak of inclusion gets.

I don't play sports games often myself, and if I do, they have some female players, but I keep my ear to the ground.

Captcha: Lucky you
I wish.

Thats fair. I would like to point out that i never claimed there was equal representation for minorities, merely for genders. please do not mix these statements.

Now normally i would automatically ignore anything from that twitter handle because they already proved themselves to know fuck all about sexism, but i gave it a benefit of the doubt and read it. Looks like cherrypicking from multiple sites and even then the best they could come up with is "we asked for better gameplay you gave us women". Sounds like EA not knowing its audience again to me. If thats the "hostility speak" inclusion gets wow do you have it easy.

Well, while I do focus on women a bit more than most pursuits, don't forget minorities in general are getting support from me, too.

Like I said, that's the tip of the iceberg. Look up Diva discussions in WWE games. Read through the comments sections of articles that praise inclusion, and you'll find the hostility. Even the Escapist isn't completely free of it, though better moderated.
Basically any mention that something includes someone other than the standard dude gets hosed by haters.

I really do think you're underestimating the hostility factor.

You're also overlooking:
"Why is this positive news?"
"Who cares about women"
"fucksake! it's a mans sport... women have ruined the earth and now they're rining fifa! for fucksake"
and basically every other quote, and more in other article comment sections like these:
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/may/28/fifa-16-to-include-womens-football-for-the-first-time
http://attackofthefanboy.com/news/ea-ceo-speaks-out-on-people-disliking-women-in-fifa-16/

This isn't really cherry picking, it's illustrating what it aims to. The hostility towards inclusion. The hostility exists. Sure, praise does, too, but highlighting the hostility is important. People want to pretend so very hard it doesn't exist, yet it does. They don't pay attention to it, yet hopeful minorities do coz they have to wade through it to find out they've been includedin something.

If you choose to keep ignoring it, then that's on you.

 

[Strazdas]

Well, while I do focus on women a bit more than most pursuits, don't forget minorities in general are getting support from me, too.

Like I said, that's the tip of the iceberg. Look up Diva discussions in WWE games. Read through the comments sections of articles that praise inclusion, and you'll find the hostility. Even the Escapist isn't completely free of it, though better moderated.
Basically any mention that something includes someone other than the standard dude gets hosed by haters.

I really do think you're underestimating the hostility factor.

You're also overlooking:
"Why is this positive news?"
"Who cares about women"
"fucksake! it's a mans sport... women have ruined the earth and now they're rining fifa! for fucksake"
and basically every other quote, and more in other article comment sections like these:
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/may/28/fifa-16-to-include-womens-football-for-the-first-time
http://attackofthefanboy.com/news/ea-ceo-speaks-out-on-people-disliking-women-in-fifa-16/

This isn't really cherry picking, it's illustrating what it aims to. The hostility towards inclusion. The hostility exists. Sure, praise does, too, but highlighting the hostility is important. People want to pretend so very hard it doesn't exist, yet it does. They don't pay attention to it, yet hopeful minorities do coz they have to wade through it to find out they've been includedin something.

If you choose to keep ignoring it, then that's on you.

Thats not relevant. We were talking about female representation, not about minority representation. your support for minority representation here was not relevant, nor did i ever denied it.

I have read plenty of articles that praise inclusion. Most cases of hostility in comments i saw when the author sounded like a raving lunatic. And there are plenty of those writing articles nowadays it seems. When i saw a well though out and researched article i found no hostility in the comments (though whether its the job of moderators or not i dont know. Apparently some moderators are so aggressive as to ban you for mere disagreeing in comments sections).

You have not substantiated your claim that including somone gets hosed by haters yet, so pelase do that.

"Why is this positive news?" - a person that does not understand the benefit of this. Also considering the context the news being "We failed to do anything fans wanted but we included women so be happy" i would have to agree its not positive news as the news are "EA fails to make competent games, uses female exclusivity as shield from criticism".

"Who cares about women" - obviuos troll is obviuos.

"Fucksake! ~i CBA typing the entire thing" - yay, one person being sexist on the internet, certainly proof of diversity being met with hatemobs. and even that one sounds more frustrated than angry.

Comment section of The guardian article:
1. hope the thing stays.
2. A person making a joke which he himself admits to be sorry to offended something in the comment chain.
3. Person complaining about being unable to match male vs female teams (even though thats not allowed in real life football)
4. A person complaining that EA chose to go for minor additions rather than what he believes to be more important changes.
5. A person pointing out the problems with the game EA failed to fix.
6. Person thinking its a good addition
7. Person making a joke about Andy Gray, whoever that is.
8. Wants inclusion of bribe mechanic
9. Likes the idea, offers suggestions
10. No idea what hes trying to say, honestly. something about jet-lag.

Comment section of attackofthefanboys article:

1. Someone calling people that dont like this addition - assholes.
2. Person saying he is interested in buying the game because of it.
3. Person pointing out that EA ignores fixing bugs and broken mechanics in favor of this, substantiates his claim by pointing out obviuos gliches in the trailer.
4. Person not understanding why people dislike this addition
This article seems to have only 4 comment chains.

so where is the hatemob you claim? No, somone downvoting a youtube video does not count as hatemob.

People dont ignore hostility, they just think you label disagreement as hostility so you dont have to adress criticism.

And im using the royal You here, not you specifically.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Well, while I do focus on women a bit more than most pursuits, don't forget minorities in general are getting support from me, too.

Like I said, that's the tip of the iceberg. Look up Diva discussions in WWE games. Read through the comments sections of articles that praise inclusion, and you'll find the hostility. Even the Escapist isn't completely free of it, though better moderated.
Basically any mention that something includes someone other than the standard dude gets hosed by haters.

I really do think you're underestimating the hostility factor.

You're also overlooking:
"Why is this positive news?"
"Who cares about women"
"fucksake! it's a mans sport... women have ruined the earth and now they're rining fifa! for fucksake"
and basically every other quote, and more in other article comment sections like these:
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/may/28/fifa-16-to-include-womens-football-for-the-first-time
http://attackofthefanboy.com/news/ea-ceo-speaks-out-on-people-disliking-women-in-fifa-16/

This isn't really cherry picking, it's illustrating what it aims to. The hostility towards inclusion. The hostility exists. Sure, praise does, too, but highlighting the hostility is important. People want to pretend so very hard it doesn't exist, yet it does. They don't pay attention to it, yet hopeful minorities do coz they have to wade through it to find out they've been includedin something.

If you choose to keep ignoring it, then that's on you.

Thats not relevant. We were talking about female representation, not about minority representation. your support for minority representation here was not relevant, nor did i ever denied it.

I have read plenty of articles that praise inclusion. Most cases of hostility in comments i saw when the author sounded like a raving lunatic. And there are plenty of those writing articles nowadays it seems. When i saw a well though out and researched article i found no hostility in the comments (though whether its the job of moderators or not i dont know. Apparently some moderators are so aggressive as to ban you for mere disagreeing in comments sections).

You have not substantiated your claim that including somone gets hosed by haters yet, so pelase do that.

"Why is this positive news?" - a person that does not understand the benefit of this. Also considering the context the news being "We failed to do anything fans wanted but we included women so be happy" i would have to agree its not positive news as the news are "EA fails to make competent games, uses female exclusivity as shield from criticism".

"Who cares about women" - obviuos troll is obviuos.

"Fucksake! ~i CBA typing the entire thing" - yay, one person being sexist on the internet, certainly proof of diversity being met with hatemobs. and even that one sounds more frustrated than angry.

Comment section of The guardian article:
1. hope the thing stays.
2. A person making a joke which he himself admits to be sorry to offended something in the comment chain.
3. Person complaining about being unable to match male vs female teams (even though thats not allowed in real life football)
4. A person complaining that EA chose to go for minor additions rather than what he believes to be more important changes.
5. A person pointing out the problems with the game EA failed to fix.
6. Person thinking its a good addition
7. Person making a joke about Andy Gray, whoever that is.
8. Wants inclusion of bribe mechanic
9. Likes the idea, offers suggestions
10. No idea what hes trying to say, honestly. something about jet-lag.

Comment section of attackofthefanboys article:

1. Someone calling people that dont like this addition - assholes.
2. Person saying he is interested in buying the game because of it.
3. Person pointing out that EA ignores fixing bugs and broken mechanics in favor of this, substantiates his claim by pointing out obviuos gliches in the trailer.
4. Person not understanding why people dislike this addition
This article seems to have only 4 comment chains.

so where is the hatemob you claim? No, somone downvoting a youtube video does not count as hatemob.

People dont ignore hostility, they just think you label disagreement as hostility so you dont have to adress criticism.

And im using the royal You here, not you specifically.

hatemob would imply they're organized somehow, which I don't really think there's a roup entirely dedicated to hating on non straight guy representation. People part of a group that do are generally fanatics and not representative of the whole group.
No, they're just assorted people hostile (hostile=/=hate) to the idea. Like the people in a link I offered up. The articles are still young, you'll find more hostility as time goes by. I saw way more in facebook comments.
Like people in this thread, too.

If you don't care to explore the possibility that it's still an uphill battle to get representation of even women, nevermind minorities, that's up to you. Go ahead, and downplay it.
I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the galaxy, but it certainly sucks being faced with it every time there's something other than a straight white dude you play as. Especially when it's in new gaming grounds like soccer, or virtually any sport in general so I can have some interest in it coz I'm tired of sausagefests.
Downplaying the importance, making it seem insignificant, complaining about an unfinished game that'll likely be fixed and wanting to kick women out in favor of that fix, etc. I mean it's easier to patch a glitch than t patch an entire gender's league.
Trolling is hostility, by the way.

People are free to disagree, butthat doesn't mean I have to like it.

Captcha: Trust me
Pfft.

 

[Strazdas]

hatemob would imply they're organized somehow, which I don't really think there's a roup entirely dedicated to hating on non straight guy representation. People part of a group that do are generally fanatics and not representative of the whole group.
No, they're just assorted people hostile (hostile=/=hate) to the idea. Like the people in a link I offered up. The articles are still young, you'll find more hostility as time goes by. I saw way more in facebook comments.
Like people in this thread, too.

If you don't care to explore the possibility that it's still an uphill battle to get representation of even women, nevermind minorities, that's up to you. Go ahead, and downplay it.
I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the galaxy, but it certainly sucks being faced with it every time there's something other than a straight white dude you play as. Especially when it's in new gaming grounds like soccer, or virtually any sport in general so I can have some interest in it coz I'm tired of sausagefests.
Downplaying the importance, making it seem insignificant, complaining about an unfinished game that'll likely be fixed and wanting to kick women out in favor of that fix, etc. I mean it's easier to patch a glitch than t patch an entire gender's league.
Trolling is hostility, by the way.

People are free to disagree, butthat doesn't mean I have to like it.

Captcha: Trust me
Pfft.

And yet you failed to demonstrate that hostility. In fact your links and claims are the opposite, as i have pointed out. I dont deny there are a few asshole, that is going to be true in every group, but they are assholes not because they hate women. they are going to be assholes regardless of the news.

I have explored that possibility. What i found was that this was not true. You so far failed to prove it to be true. By faced with it i guess you mean (based on examples you have) people saying "its a good idea". Oh, thats horrible.

You do realize that low level of females in sport games are representative of real life though, right? you do know that there are far less females in sports such as football than males?

Thats because it shouldnt be significant. Including females should be status quo, not news. people thinking it is news are the ones making it a big deal. and i can certainly understand the frustration when the developer refuses to fix bugs for multiple releases and shields from criticism "but teh womenz". And no, its not easeir to rework a gameplay mechanic than slap a few new models and stats in the game.

Trolling is trolling. You may not like it, but that does not mean people should agree with you.

Cacpha: Gung Ho

it truly is sentient.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

hatemob would imply they're organized somehow, which I don't really think there's a roup entirely dedicated to hating on non straight guy representation. People part of a group that do are generally fanatics and not representative of the whole group.
No, they're just assorted people hostile (hostile=/=hate) to the idea. Like the people in a link I offered up. The articles are still young, you'll find more hostility as time goes by. I saw way more in facebook comments.
Like people in this thread, too.

If you don't care to explore the possibility that it's still an uphill battle to get representation of even women, nevermind minorities, that's up to you. Go ahead, and downplay it.
I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the galaxy, but it certainly sucks being faced with it every time there's something other than a straight white dude you play as. Especially when it's in new gaming grounds like soccer, or virtually any sport in general so I can have some interest in it coz I'm tired of sausagefests.
Downplaying the importance, making it seem insignificant, complaining about an unfinished game that'll likely be fixed and wanting to kick women out in favor of that fix, etc. I mean it's easier to patch a glitch than t patch an entire gender's league.
Trolling is hostility, by the way.

People are free to disagree, butthat doesn't mean I have to like it.

Captcha: Trust me
Pfft.

And yet you failed to demonstrate that hostility. In fact your links and claims are the opposite, as i have pointed out. I dont deny there are a few asshole, that is going to be true in every group, but they are assholes not because they hate women. they are going to be assholes regardless of the news.

I have explored that possibility. What i found was that this was not true. You so far failed to prove it to be true. By faced with it i guess you mean (based on examples you have) people saying "its a good idea". Oh, thats horrible.

You do realize that low level of females in sport games are representative of real life though, right? you do know that there are far less females in sports such as football than males?

Thats because it shouldnt be significant. Including females should be status quo, not news. people thinking it is news are the ones making it a big deal. and i can certainly understand the frustration when the developer refuses to fix bugs for multiple releases and shields from criticism "but teh womenz". And no, its not easeir to rework a gameplay mechanic than slap a few new models and stats in the game.

Trolling is trolling. You may not like it, but that does not mean people should agree with you.

Cacpha: Gung Ho

it truly is sentient.

Assholes are abundant on the internet. They're assholes, and they specefically focus on taking the women out when it is either what they want (No matter if it's going to be fixed anyway or not. I really doubt Fifa 16 is going to be not patched), or women. Do I really have to prove this? I mean it's obvious, isn't it? Seeing them over, and over and over again for a decade or better wears thin on me.
It's far more coding to add the women in than you imagine. Flags have to be added so that women don't end up in men's matches, I'm sure the body movement is a tad diffirent, then the stats have to be added (probably manually), then there's voices that have to be added which means voice actors which in turn leads to more money invested, then the voice work for their names, then the uniform modeling, and a ton of work that Unisoft was too scared to do for Unity. Fixing a bug is small compared to that.

The WNBA exists, but I've never seen it represented in games. There's women's leagues to basically every sport (Even football has the women's lingerie football league where, yes, women play in minimal padding [basically helmets, and shoulder, elbow, and knee pads at best] while wearing little more than bikinis, basically less than the guys wear for similar contact). They aren't that much less, but they're basically never recognized regardless.
At least Fifa's got the guts to aknowledge a women's league, and add them in, which is something I wish more games had the nerve to do.
I don't care if they're fictional like Blodbowl (Which had female elves, and an Amazon team, even), or something like that. Hey, fictional sports could be awesome! Or overblown stuff! NBA Jam again anyone?
Hell, even modern, real world NASCAR one of the US's biggest spectator sports, and guy centric sports is trying to be more inclusive these days. I don't mean just Danica, but there's women entering crew positions, too.

I agree it shouldn't be news because it should be the status quo to be inclusive (Not so much in the evil diabolical checklist sort of way that people that fear women being included fear, but because the industry in general wants it), but it's going to be news because the industry fights the inclusion, and so do the assholes.
So long as there's novelty in inclusion, it will be newsworthy, and I'll happily know abot one more rare game that lets you play as a woman, then I'll research to see just how much she's playable, and that's about it, coz it's not like I have high hopes that she'll be able to instigate a relationship, or get intimate with someone, or anything like that, like most every other male character can.
The novelty will remain with minority/female inclusion because it's so rare.

I never said they had to agree with me, even if I don't like it, but I don't have to like the trolling, or anything. I don't have to be silent about it, either. People are free to have their opinions, but that doesn't mean they're immune to the opinions of others, and that cuts all ways.
Hell, I never go in to any discussion expecting to change the opinons of others. I'm too hard headed and stubborn to have mine changed easily, so why should I expect others to be any easier?

 

[Kyrian007]

I think the devs of Rust made a GREAT decision to tie race forever to a Steam account and randomize it. Like EC, I think it cost them players and customers... and I think the game and it's community are MUCH BETTER OFF without people like that. Hell, they should have randomized and locked gender too.

 

[Strazdas]

Assholes are abundant on the internet. They're assholes, and they specefically focus on taking the women out when it is either what they want (No matter if it's going to be fixed anyway or not. I really doubt Fifa 16 is going to be not patched), or women. Do I really have to prove this? I mean it's obvious, isn't it? Seeing them over, and over and over again for a decade or better wears thin on me.
It's far more coding to add the women in than you imagine. Flags have to be added so that women don't end up in men's matches, I'm sure the body movement is a tad diffirent, then the stats have to be added (probably manually), then there's voices that have to be added which means voice actors which in turn leads to more money invested, then the voice work for their names, then the uniform modeling, and a ton of work that Unisoft was too scared to do for Unity. Fixing a bug is small compared to that.

The WNBA exists, but I've never seen it represented in games. There's women's leagues to basically every sport (Even football has the women's lingerie football league where, yes, women play in minimal padding [basically helmets, and shoulder, elbow, and knee pads at best] while wearing little more than bikinis, basically less than the guys wear for similar contact). They aren't that much less, but they're basically never recognized regardless.
At least Fifa's got the guts to aknowledge a women's league, and add them in, which is something I wish more games had the nerve to do.
I don't care if they're fictional like Blodbowl (Which had female elves, and an Amazon team, even), or something like that. Hey, fictional sports could be awesome! Or overblown stuff! NBA Jam again anyone?
Hell, even modern, real world NASCAR one of the US's biggest spectator sports, and guy centric sports is trying to be more inclusive these days. I don't mean just Danica, but there's women entering crew positions, too.

I agree it shouldn't be news because it should be the status quo to be inclusive (Not so much in the evil diabolical checklist sort of way that people that fear women being included fear, but because the industry in general wants it), but it's going to be news because the industry fights the inclusion, and so do the assholes.
So long as there's novelty in inclusion, it will be newsworthy, and I'll happily know abot one more rare game that lets you play as a woman, then I'll research to see just how much she's playable, and that's about it, coz it's not like I have high hopes that she'll be able to instigate a relationship, or get intimate with someone, or anything like that, like most every other male character can.
The novelty will remain with minority/female inclusion because it's so rare.

I never said they had to agree with me, even if I don't like it, but I don't have to like the trolling, or anything. I don't have to be silent about it, either. People are free to have their opinions, but that doesn't mean they're immune to the opinions of others, and that cuts all ways.
Hell, I never go in to any discussion expecting to change the opinons of others. I'm too hard headed and stubborn to have mine changed easily, so why should I expect others to be any easier?

Assholes are abundant everywhere, its just easier to find them on the internet because you dont ask hundreds of peopels opinion on the street. And no, they dont specifically target women, they are assholes to everyone. there are very few actual "women haters" from my experience. mostly just people that will try to bite you whoever you are.

And no, its not "obvious" as even your examples turned out to be false.

Now i dont have Fifa 16 and didnt study its animations, but i doubt EA really remade running animations for this. Especially when in such a game there was no need as there are no hitboxes anywhere but feet and head. What you describe here is like addition of a new team. And i dont think you understand how big of a "mechanic is broken at its core" bug is.

Would more female teams in sport games be good? sure. I never disagreed with that. And neither did the commenters in your links apperently. So im still failing to see the hatred of female inclusivity you claim.

But the industry isnt fighting the inclusion. your own example shows industry embrasing the inclusion. even prioritizing it over other things they could be working on. And asholes are going to be against everything, no matter the anouncement.

Yes, because your average COD protagonist is certainly going for intimate relationships.... In fact, why would there be intimate relationships in FIFA16 at all, its a game about the sport, not about the athletes personal life.

 

[the December King]

I hate to admit it, but I am one of these oft- demonized white males who can't really get behind playing a female character in games, specifically games where being a human woman is part of the narrative/important in it's own right. This also includes table-top role-playing games. I can't really put my finger on exactly why I don't like the experience... there are likely several reasons. As a DM, naturally, I have adopted the role of many kinds of women, but as this is just as a story-telling device, I don't count that.

On the other hand, I would never want a game changed for me because of this, and I like that others, who don't feel the way I do, have choices and great games to play with cool, female characters ('cool' in the sense that they're interesting, engaging, or otherwise stimulating, so "Noel Fielding" cool, but also possibly just ass-kicking or what have you).

As to race, I have no strong feelings on racial representation in games- to be honest, I really don't like playing any kind of human at all, and will choose the robot/alien/weird option usually first if any choice is available. But that option aside, the idea of playing someone not of my race is fine by me. No need for contextual explanations or excuses in any explicit manner, I'm cool with all that- it makes me a bit sad that I don't feel the same about a female character, really, but we all have our crosses to bear, I suppose.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

dear diary: Today I learned people are still playing Rust.

 

[the_dramatica]

I'd like to just say that it's an inane feature and that nobody really cares about. We don't grow up in a society with no diversity; we base our perceptions of people based on interaction, seeing people with skin colors in a video game without a narrative is not going to be enlightening.

I think it's ironic that sometimes it's anti racists who have no idea what society is like and view pseudo anonymous youtube comments as a parameter for the perceptions of a population.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Assholes are abundant everywhere, its just easier to find them on the internet because you dont ask hundreds of peopels opinion on the street. And no, they dont specifically target women, they are assholes to everyone. there are very few actual "women haters" from my experience. mostly just people that will try to bite you whoever you are.

And no, its not "obvious" as even your examples turned out to be false.

Now i dont have Fifa 16 and didnt study its animations, but i doubt EA really remade running animations for this. Especially when in such a game there was no need as there are no hitboxes anywhere but feet and head. What you describe here is like addition of a new team. And i dont think you understand how big of a "mechanic is broken at its core" bug is.

Would more female teams in sport games be good? sure. I never disagreed with that. And neither did the commenters in your links apperently. So im still failing to see the hatred of female inclusivity you claim.

But the industry isnt fighting the inclusion. your own example shows industry embrasing the inclusion. even prioritizing it over other things they could be working on. And asholes are going to be against everything, no matter the anouncement.

Yes, because your average COD protagonist is certainly going for intimate relationships.... In fact, why would there be intimate relationships in FIFA16 at all, its a game about the sport, not about the athletes personal life.

I never said all assholes are targeting women. What does hating women have to do with it? This is about the inclusion of them, and not being for it, which doesn't require "hate" as hostility and hate are different. The fact there are assholes targeting the inclusion of women is what I'm aiming for, and you don't seem to be denying that it happens because assholes target everyone, so there's my point.

The first link wasnt good enough, where it showed people against the idea of including women in the game?
Check the other links. They had time to actually get comments, and show people against the idea of inclusion as I predicted, but overestimated how fast they'd come.
It's not false. You said assholes target everyone. So they target the inclusion of women in Fifa, so which is it? Are they completely avoiding the topic, or are they involve in the topic?

Again, voice acting, modeling for the female bodies, hopefully some hair physics, taking the time to add in their values, and so forth will already create more work than fixing a bug because it requires people not involved in programming the game. It's not just a new team, it's the voices along with it, and the addition of everything around them beyond the normal amount of work for guys.

One isolated case doesn't mean there's equality for everyone.

I'd not be surprised if a CoD playable character had a family, and maybe kids somewhere, at least if they're guys. Women generally don't get that luxury. And this is generally true for other genres of games.
I wouldn't discount some personal life playing some role in a sports game somewhere, but I don't care that much.

 

[Strazdas]

dear diary: Today I learned people are still playing Rust.

Actually Rust is being updated quite frequently and is a very different game than it was. Or at least so i was told by a cousin that plays it almost daily.

I never said all assholes are targeting women. What does hating women have to do with it? This is about the inclusion of them, and not being for it, which doesn't require "hate" as hostility and hate are different. The fact there are assholes targeting the inclusion of women is what I'm aiming for, and you don't seem to be denying that it happens because assholes target everyone, so there's my point.

The first link wasnt good enough, where it showed people against the idea of including women in the game?
Check the other links. They had time to actually get comments, and show people against the idea of inclusion as I predicted, but overestimated how fast they'd come.
It's not false. You said assholes target everyone. So they target the inclusion of women in Fifa, so which is it? Are they completely avoiding the topic, or are they involve in the topic?

Again, voice acting, modeling for the female bodies, hopefully some hair physics, taking the time to add in their values, and so forth will already create more work than fixing a bug because it requires people not involved in programming the game. It's not just a new team, it's the voices along with it, and the addition of everything around them beyond the normal amount of work for guys.

One isolated case doesn't mean there's equality for everyone.

I'd not be surprised if a CoD playable character had a family, and maybe kids somewhere, at least if they're guys. Women generally don't get that luxury. And this is generally true for other genres of games.
I wouldn't discount some personal life playing some role in a sports game somewhere, but I don't care that much.

You are claiming that those assholes post because of the inclusion of women, thus creating a direct link of inclusion of woman and assholes posting. Thus is not true, assholes will post regardless of the article contents.

I have very hard time imagining someone being hostile towards something he does not hate. Unless you count the calculated "damaging this manes me benefit from X" plans. Though i think in this case the problem is you misclassifying things as hostility.

No, it wasnt, as i already rebutted it, twice. I checked all other links you provided and even posted analysis of them. You asking me to check them again only shows that you havent read my posts, otherwise why would you still make such false claims?
I have checked the links again, and only the second one got new comments, still not seeing any hostility.


You do realize that what you claimed is equivalent of addition of a new team/players? Im sure for a game like this EA has the process streamlined. And you still undervalue the meaning of "gameplay mechanic is broken" and compare it to som easy to fix bug. Yes, there will be some extra work than just adding new players as some things change, but its hardly the end of the world for EA and is incomparable to effort it would take to make a female protagonist to something like AC:U where cutscene collision detection alone would likely outdo this entire effort.

I agree that one case does not mean there is equality for everyone, but why did you chose to present that case as proof of the opposite? I mean, you are the one that picked this example, not me. surely if you wanted to show hatred, you should have picked the example that actually had it?

I dont play CoD, but from what ive seen of the last one, the only personal relationship was him burying his war-buddy. I might be wrong here though.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

dear diary: Today I learned people are still playing Rust.

Actually Rust is being updated quite frequently and is a very different game than it was. Or at least so i was told by a cousin that plays it almost daily.

I never said all assholes are targeting women. What does hating women have to do with it? This is about the inclusion of them, and not being for it, which doesn't require "hate" as hostility and hate are different. The fact there are assholes targeting the inclusion of women is what I'm aiming for, and you don't seem to be denying that it happens because assholes target everyone, so there's my point.

The first link wasnt good enough, where it showed people against the idea of including women in the game?
Check the other links. They had time to actually get comments, and show people against the idea of inclusion as I predicted, but overestimated how fast they'd come.
It's not false. You said assholes target everyone. So they target the inclusion of women in Fifa, so which is it? Are they completely avoiding the topic, or are they involve in the topic?

Again, voice acting, modeling for the female bodies, hopefully some hair physics, taking the time to add in their values, and so forth will already create more work than fixing a bug because it requires people not involved in programming the game. It's not just a new team, it's the voices along with it, and the addition of everything around them beyond the normal amount of work for guys.

One isolated case doesn't mean there's equality for everyone.

I'd not be surprised if a CoD playable character had a family, and maybe kids somewhere, at least if they're guys. Women generally don't get that luxury. And this is generally true for other genres of games.
I wouldn't discount some personal life playing some role in a sports game somewhere, but I don't care that much.

You are claiming that those assholes post because of the inclusion of women, thus creating a direct link of inclusion of woman and assholes posting. Thus is not true, assholes will post regardless of the article contents.

I have very hard time imagining someone being hostile towards something he does not hate. Unless you count the calculated "damaging this manes me benefit from X" plans. Though i think in this case the problem is you misclassifying things as hostility.

No, it wasnt, as i already rebutted it, twice. I checked all other links you provided and even posted analysis of them. You asking me to check them again only shows that you havent read my posts, otherwise why would you still make such false claims?
I have checked the links again, and only the second one got new comments, still not seeing any hostility.


You do realize that what you claimed is equivalent of addition of a new team/players? Im sure for a game like this EA has the process streamlined. And you still undervalue the meaning of "gameplay mechanic is broken" and compare it to som easy to fix bug. Yes, there will be some extra work than just adding new players as some things change, but its hardly the end of the world for EA and is incomparable to effort it would take to make a female protagonist to something like AC:U where cutscene collision detection alone would likely outdo this entire effort.

I agree that one case does not mean there is equality for everyone, but why did you chose to present that case as proof of the opposite? I mean, you are the one that picked this example, not me. surely if you wanted to show hatred, you should have picked the example that actually had it?

I dont play CoD, but from what ive seen of the last one, the only personal relationship was him burying his war-buddy. I might be wrong here though.

You saying some aren't? Gunna need some proof of that. Why is it that getting rid of women seems to be the ONLY option towards fixing the game?

hos·tile
ˈhästl,ˈhäˌstīl
adjective
unfriendly; antagonistic.
"a hostile audience"
synonyms: unfriendly, unkind, bitter, unsympathetic, malicious, vicious, rancorous, venomous, poisonous, virulent; antagonistic, aggressive, confrontational, belligerent, truculent, vitriolic; bellicose, pugnacious, warlike
"a hostile attack"
of or belonging to a military enemy.
"hostile aircraft"
opposed.
"people are very hostile to the idea"
synonyms: opposed to, averse to, antagonistic to, ill-disposed to, disapproving of, unsympathetic to, antipathetic to; More

That's a few levels under hate. You can be in the military and fight people and be hostile but you do not have to hate those people you're fighting. You can disagree and not hate the other person.
I chose the word for a reason.

There's hostility in people being against the inclusion of women. HATE? Not necessarily. Hostility? Yeah.

I offered more proof it exists than you that it doesn't. It seems more like you're excusing the actions of said assholes. If you disagree, then whatever.

No, because there's a need for -new- voice actors as opposed to recycling dude voice actors which is something anti-inclusive people just love throwing in my face as a reason that there's less women to play as, aka finances. That in and of itself easily puts it apart from just adding another team.

I'm not looking to show hatred. I'm looking to show opposition to the idea. Hatred, if it ever rears it's ugly face, is just gravy.

Honestly, most anything in CoD, including what you mentioned is more than most women get in terms of relationships.

Well, I feel like we aren't getting anywhere with this truth be told. You don't believe me, I don't believe you, and I'm not sure it's going to change because I see people complaining about inclusion all the time, and it adds up even if it's not allin one place. But it's mostly on facebook. Partly on Escapist, frankly.