Torture or no Torture

[astrogamic]

Are the torture scenes in modern video games really a big deal, or do activists just need something else to moan about? Games like Brink and The Punisher were somewhat subtle, while Splinter Cell: Conviction and GTA 5 have recently been shunned by a portion of the masses due to their, for a lack of better words, 'interrogation scenes'. Let's be real, our nation has been doing it forever. All politics aside, what makes us detest a video game when one of these scenes occur? Is it the degree or length of the torture that enrages people? Maybe it's the motive behind the pain deliverance. Do the ends justify the means? Or perhaps it's the characters involved that draw such a reaction. The subject has become tabboo and will forever have a stigma attached to it that makes it unacceptable, even in video game form. Personally, I don't feel here or there about it. Tell me how you feel about the topic. To Torture or not to Torture in games? PLZ SUPPORT YOUR ANSWER!

 

[TehCookie]

I love torture in games, but those games are too brutal for me to like. When I torture people I like to do so using friendship speeches and brainwash them to join you.

The characters and reasons have a strong influence, but one of the reasons I dislike it is I don't like hitting people who can't hit back. If the characters are just trying to get information that's one thing, but at least in GTAV they seem to enjoy it.

 

[BrotherRool]

I don't think there can be a hard and fast rule, it all should be context based. Games which stray into torture porn or seem to portray it as a positive act (I'm sure a few of the CoDs do that) are something that I'd mark the game down for (and maybe even avoid if extreme enough). If the torture is very graphic and brutal I'd like the work to be good enough to be worth the stakes (but this is a taste thing. Torture in stuff like Saw is fine but puts me off).

I feel like the satire in GTA probably wasn't worth it because GTA satire isn't super smart, but it does fit with the tone of the game and I don't think they were using it inappropriately in think it clearly wasn't meant to be glorifying it.

The torture scenes in MGS are fine because they're never very serious , but we'll see how it goes in MGSV, either way I doubt they're approving.


I haven't played Blacklist but I think I've said enough to make sense of what I personally think whats acceptable* and what isn't.

*not acceptable as in whether it should be censored or not, but in the way that, in my eyes, something can be pretty scummy or disgusting for the things it does and the views it promotes

 

[CloudAtlas]

If you want to force the player to be the perpetrator of torture, i.e. force the player to do something really terrible, and show it in vivid detail, you should come up with a damn good reason for it. It should be beneficial for your narrative, and your narrative better be good in the first place. But the act of torture should always be portrayed as evil, an necessary or emotionally justifiable evil perhaps, but an evil nonetheless.

But yea, you better tell a good story if you do it.

 

[Vegosiux]

Hey, have you seen the stuff Batman does to goons in Arkham Origins? I don't care how good at martial arts he is, most of the moves he pulls would actually kill people, and most of others would be likely to leave them crippled for life. As for my opinion on torture in video games, I'll say this post sums it up well:

If you want to force the player to be the perpetrator of torture, i.e. force the player to do something really terrible, and show it in vivid detail, you should come up with a damn good reason for it. It should be beneficial for your narrative, and your narrative better be good in the first place. But the act of torture should always be portrayed as evil, an necessary or emotionally justifiable evil perhaps, but an evil nonetheless.

But yea, you better tell a good story if you do it.

If it's cartoony and obviously ironic, then it's a bit less iffy. I mean, I want a game where I lock a person in the room and tell them "Talk, or I AM GOING TO SHOW YOU THE BEST OF JERRY SPRINGER!" The mere threat should be enough to make anyone spill the beans.

 

[veloper]

Anything should be allowed in fiction.
Just apply the adult advisory label where necessary.

 

[sageoftruth]

I mean, I want a game where I lock a person in the room and tell them "Talk, or I AM GOING TO SHOW YOU THE BEST OF JERRY SPRINGER!" The mere threat should be enough to make anyone spill the beans.

Jesus Christs, man. How could you be so cruel? You'd better hope the NSA didn't hear you say that or they'll lock you up in an asylum, you sick bastard!

 

[Serioli]

Others have mentioned it but I'll re-iterate as it also seems to happen in films. Torture is a terrible thing, there are reasons it is frowned upon by modern society but games and films seem to have taken to glorifying the act rather than the result or the necessity involved in committing a crime. Not sure where it started but there seem to be more 'torture porn' scenes in entertainment.

I don't have a problem with torture being in literature, art or whatever* but there seems to be far too much focus on the pain being caused and it's okay because they're a bad person.

Another petty gripe is that 'Hollywood torture' always works! No-one lies or literally tells you anything you want to stop the torture. (E.g. an innocent man confessing to being a terrorist/drug dealer/paedophile or other villain of the week being imprisoned, or more often 'justifiably killed' in games/films and then it coming back to bite the protagonist in the ass.)

*EDIT: Age/warning labelled as necessary.

 

[FoolKiller]

If its allowed in other forms of media, I think it should be allowed in games too.

I'm just disappointed that it was forced out of Blacklist. It made sense in Conviction for the interrogations since Sam was a very angry man during that game.

 

[Ratties]

Got to expect the worst from certain games. Everybody for the most part, understands what to expect from a mature rated game. Of course the movies are the same way. Go and use a little common sense. Eventually there might be stuff in this game that will make me uncomfortable.

 

[Fox12]

I wonder how many politicians criticize torture in games and support it in real life. Anyone who supports the torture of POW's, but deems it unsuitable for viewership is a hypocrite. As long as torture remains a state sponsored method in the United States fiction writers should absolutely include it in their work. Not only is it acceptable in fiction, it's necessary. I'd love to see a game criticize the governments use of water boarding and torture. It's an ugly reality that needs to be shoved into peoples faces. I wonder how people would react to being forced to torture another person in a game, only to realize later that the information gathered from the victim was actually inaccurate (just like real life). Any game that wants to include material like this should be free to do so.

Edit: Also, I wouldn't consider torture a necessary evil under any circumstances. It's a crime against humanity, yes, but it's also unreliable. It's not an effective method for gathering information. All it does is corrupt your spirit and turn you into a monster. What's the point of defeating your enemy if you become the very thing you sought to destroy? If you support torture under any circumstances then you may need to sit back and consider the possibility that your the villain...

 

[frizzlebyte]

If you want to force the player to be the perpetrator of torture, i.e. force the player to do something really terrible, and show it in vivid detail, you should come up with a damn good reason for it. It should be beneficial for your narrative, and your narrative better be good in the first place. But the act of torture should always be portrayed as evil, an necessary or emotionally justifiable evil perhaps, but an evil nonetheless.

But yea, you better tell a good story if you do it.

I think this comes as close to my own thoughts on the subject as one can, although I think the "necessary evil" thing is a little too much for me to allow, at least on torture. Even if you make it as unpleasant and demonized as possible (even excluding the necessary part), just having the player go through it is desensitizing to the effects of torture if enough games include it.

Due to the interactivity of video games, I don't think I'll ever really be okay with the depiction of torture in them, at least ones the player directs and participates in. It's just over the line to me.

 

[Chaos Isaac]

Entirely necessary in GTA V. Because it's satire, and Trevor himself says that it's pretty pointless asides the satisfaction for the torturer. It's kinda like the sandy hook shooting game, terrible, yes, but has a point and a message.

In Blacklist, eh, I guess it's torture, but honestly I had to strain to remember them. Aside a moment or two where Sam is being a bit over zealous about it, it didn't bother me. Mainly 'cause everyone he tortured had it coming. And the torture was pretty quick, though probably painful as hell.

 

[Smeatza]

There's a lot of inconsistency in this thread.
A lot of people setting out rules as to when torture can and cannot be shown in games and rules as to how torture should be treated. Rules that people would never dream of assigning to other criminal acts (like murder and theft).

People can put whatever the hell they want in their games and assign whatever tone they want to it.

If it makes you feel uncomfortable there are plenty of Mario, Sonic and Moshi Monsters games out there for you to play.

 

[Caiphus]

As long as it stays away from propaganda I'd probably be fine with it. If it were treated as patriotic or necessary to uphold democracy or something, then that'd probably be bad. Of course, you'd need to consider subtext and all that.

But I mean, it's fine if it makes you uncomfortable. In fact, that's probably a good thing. It's not a great reason to prohibit video games from exploring the subject matter though.

 

[Fireaxe]

To me, if you're going to have excessive violence of any kind, there should be a point to it -- Walker's finishing moves becoming increasingly brutal in Spec Ops: The Line being a good example of it being done with a reason.

 

[Grace_Omega]

I think the outrage over torture scenes is absolutely justified.

Blacklist (which to be fair significantly toned down the brutality of its scenes after a backlash) demonstrates the problem neatly: all too often torture in games as well as fiction in general is portrayed as the purview of gritty heroes who override the diplomatic pansies to Get Shit Done and save the day. This is glorification in the purest sense of the word, the portrayal of torture as something cool, dark Freedom Warriors do to protect the homeland and their loved ones from scary foreigners. It's also more or less the exact same line of reasoning used by people to try to justify torture in the real world.

But even if you don't are about that stuff, it's just fucking juvenile and unpleasant. I go to games for entertainment; that doesn't mean they have to be soft and fluffy at all times (I just got done playing the Walking Dead, which has me graphically caving in a zombie's skull while playing as a ten year old girl) but crushing a dude's wrists with a folding chair is not my idea of a good time. I don't want that in my entertainment, I don't want to play as the sort of character who does that. I can understand a torture scene if it's intended to make me hate the main character, but we're obviously not supposed to hate Sam Fisher. He's the cool gritty patriot who saves America, and he does it with torture.

The main reason I disagree with the assertion that GTA V promotes torture is because it is very obviously a scene that is supposed to make you feel uncomfortable. So many people have complained that it makes them feel gross afterwards, and if GTA V really isn't your thing because of it, then so be it, but it making you feel terrible is not a flaw, it's a design choice. The torture in GTA V is meant to be an unnecesary action that probably hasn't achieved much. A grisly thing that is the result of stupid violence, and only causes more stupid violence. Everything from the fact that Mr.K obviously would have told you everything, that you operate simply on the knowledge of the 'terrorist's' race, find out later that said terrorist was a charitable philanthropist, et cetera, is meant to reinforce the fact that what you're doing is nothing but building the profile of that dickhole Steve Haines.

The reason I don't buy this is because of Trevor. It's pretty clear Rockstar loves Trevor and wants the player to also love Trevor. The torture scene in my opinion should have been the moment where the illusion falls away and we realize he's a raging misanthropic asshole, yet he's still delivering funny quips all throughout the scene and the game continues afterward as if nothing unusual happened. Instead of being a horrific moment of brutal violence it's just another "oh, that wacky Trevor!" bit.

Not to mention, I find it a little silly when people don't even bother to bring up the irony of getting upset over a torture scene in a game whose narrative revolves around hurting people.

The difference here is realism. A guy whipping out an automatic rifle and gunning down hordes of police officers and innocent bystanders happens irregularly enough and on a sufficiently small scale that we can recognize such scenes in GTA as goofy fantasies and have fun with them, but exactly the kind of torture the player is made to participate in happens all over the world in real life. It's just too uncomfortable, particularly given the Wacky Trevor issue I talked about above.

This is also why stuff like the near-rape in Hotline Miami 2 bothered people. The violence in that game is ludicrous to the point of surreality, but a man raping a helpless woman is something that happens every day. It's too real, so it becomes disturbing.