Transgender Day of Rememberance

[CODE-D]

Transgender Day of Remembrance? Serious? I'm sure all the veterans would feel super about this.

The veterans already have their own day.

Yeah they do, and they earned it.

Yes because we should remember only those who kill enough people for our government, not those victimized by out society.

Those people died doing/serving a duty to their country and providing for their family and on massive scale and over years.
They also probably experienced horrors beyond social rejection.

As if they uphold all of society. Pfft, much more is essential than them.

Yes, just social rejection. That's what murder is. Let's not stop to use something stupid like a brain and consider things like that. Or that the big difference in suicide rate probably means something.

Yes lets not stop using our brains.
I assume murder for them is the extreme and ultimate offense to them.
But how about millions of murders, crimes against humanity, unneeded loss of several friends and loved ones, genocide and a suicide rate that makes the other not even compare.(A veteran commits suicide every 80 minutes)

most deserve/earned their day, however cynical you are about it.

Aw man. I honestly was agreeing with you throughout the thread until you pulled that statistic. Y'know how fast we'd be through our Veterans if that were true?

look it up, Im sure studies vary but arent that different
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/02/suicide_n_1070491.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2057061/One-U-S-veteran-attempts-suicide-80-minutes-Hidden-tragedy-Afghanistan-Iraq-wars.html

We could discuss attempted vs succeeded but i rather not.

 

[Vankraken]

How about we make a day dedicated to not murdering other humans for any and all reasons. Its good to inform people about how different groups of people are suffering so the issue can be addressed but the bigger problem is people killing other people.

Or how about we make an annual "Stop the Hate Year" and everyday we work towards ending needless hate. (Not trying to be sarcastic but we seriously need to fix the major issue of all around hating/killing)

Transgenders suffering is definitely a bad thing but its just #5890 on the list of reasons humans will justify the attacking and/or killing of other humans.

 

[KeyMaster45]

Um not really true on the first part (might be a joke can't tell) for instance people wouldn't want a remembrance day for all the frogs that have died crossing the road.

We need this holiday, and we need it now naugh! I've got a legal copy of photoshop and easy access to blank T-shirts, we'll make a fortune.

OT: I'd toss my two cents into this wonderful flame war but there seem to be others who have the tolerance troll well in check.

 

[weker]

Those people died doing/serving a duty to their country and providing for their family.
They also probably experienced horrors beyond social rejection.

To play devils advocate, those people are doing a "duty" which personal I do not value.
"duty" is a strange thing to me, that causes many to assume some form of responsibility to a mass of dirt.

Then your probably thinking of the wrong war.

wha!? I don't get what your on about, sorry.

 

[weker]

Thanks for your support...? (I think) But you missed out a big part, no one chooses to be transgendered, you've made several allusions to that effect, and it's just not true.

I question the idea that NO ONE has a choice, many people say you can't alter personality and such, but I think you can, especially since christian sexuality correction groups seems to have success with a FEW people. Not that I would advice or condone it myself however.

 

[isometry]

I question the idea that NO ONE has a choice, many people say you can't alter personality and such, but I think you can, especially since christian sexuality correction groups seems to have success with a FEW people. Not that I would advice or condone it myself however.

You say it's possible to alter personality, so I guess you believe it's possible for someone who considers themselves straight and happy with their gender to choose to become transsexual?

I'm not saying why they would do that, I'm just asking whether you think it's possible for a straight person to choose to be a transsexual.

 

[Mischa87]

Thanks for your support...? (I think) But you missed out a big part, no one chooses to be transgendered, you've made several allusions to that effect, and it's just not true.

I question the idea that NO ONE has a choice, many people say you can't alter personality and such, but I think you can, especially since christian sexuality correction groups seems to have success with a FEW people. Not that I would advice or condone it myself however.

So... you're saying sexual orientation, and gender identity are... personality? And we can choose it?

And yeah, as you alluded to at the end, those Christian "correction" groups are all kinds of fucked up.

 

[Thistlehart]

The TGDoR thing is good, for those that it affects and those close to them. I have difficulty, though, in feeling much pity. Rage, yes, but not pity. I feel rage for them having been attacked, but I feel no pity or empathy for their plight.

If they want to live that way, they will have to accept that assholes will not like it, and they need to be prepared to fight in their own defense, and kill if necessary. And I'm not even going to get into the people who kill themselves because "it's too hard."

Please do not feed me the line "But they shouldn't have to deal with assholes because it's wrong!" Cite me an instance in history where people were reasonable and I can cite you five (from the same era) where they were vicious, small-minded, monsters.

You want to be different? Learn to defend yourself, or be prepared to be hurt and/or killed, because if you're not willing to fight, sweat, bleed, or die for what you want, you don't deserve it.

Thanks for your support...? (I think) But you missed out a big part, no one chooses to be transgendered, you've made several allusions to that effect, and it's just not true.

You're right and wrong in equal measure. I will concede that you are correct that no one chooses to be trans, just as I didn't choose to be gay. However, I (and they) choose to live life that way.

I had a choice to make when I had my little epiphany (I didn't start thinking about it until HS and didn't figure it out until college). I could go on living life as I had, and go on to live the life I up to that point assumed I should (rejecting all the while the discovery I had made), or I could let myself just be and grow in my own direction. It was still a choice.

You're also right that people shouldn't victimize us for being who we are, but they're going to do it anyway, and whimpering about (and holding rememberence days for) it does nothing.

I decided that, if I was going to accept this self, I would have to put up with hatred and possibly people who may want to hurt or kill me. So I learned to defend myself and cultivated awareness and restraint. I worked at it, and I think I became better than I would otherwise have been. I earned what I have. Every last shred of it. I never gave up, even when things were dark and lonely.

So don't ask me to pity those who have died because they would not fight for themselves.

However, I will stand with you against those who would oppress us.

 

[weker]

I question the idea that NO ONE has a choice, many people say you can't alter personality and such, but I think you can, especially since christian sexuality correction groups seems to have success with a FEW people. Not that I would advice or condone it myself however.

You say it's possible to alter personality, so I guess you believe it's possible for someone who considers themselves straight and happy with their gender to choose to become transsexual?

I'm not saying why they would do that, I'm just asking whether you think it's possible for a straight person to choose to be a transsexual.

yes I do, it's possible, but not everyone. With a generic person with a "generic mind" you could use attempt many methods and one is bound to have some success.
Brain washing can leave people without emotional scars sometimes, so I would call that method a success if they can do it for sexuality.

 

[Thaluikhain]

So... you're saying sexual orientation, and gender identity are... personality? And we can choose it?

If only that were true...any time two straight guys were complaining about their lack of sex, they could totally turn gay for a bit. Solve all sorts of problems, that would.

 

[weker]

So... you're saying sexual orientation, and gender identity are... personality? And we can choose it?

Well I attempted to word my reply in a way that you wouldn't ignore part of it, but I guess that didn't work and you put my comment out of context. I said I questioned the idea that NO ONE has a choice, which suggests some people can choose it.
I personally think if I wanted to I could change my sexuality, tho I wouldn't want to.

 

[DarkRyter]

No, I don't acknowledge sad holidays.

That's why I don't celebrate MLK day(dead guy), Memorial Day(dead guys), Veterans Day(survivors of whatever killed the dead guys), Arbor Day (Trees still die all the time, man), 4th of July(Tons of people die in America), Easter(Jesus dies), Christmas (Jesus is gonna die), New Years (Last year just died), or no shave november (my grandma died in november).

 

[weker]

No, I don't acknowledge sad holidays.

That's why I don't celebrate MLK day(dead guy), Memorial Day(dead guys), Veterans Day(survivors of whatever killed the dead guys), Arbor Day (Trees still die all the time, man), 4th of July(Tons of people die in America), Easter(Jesus dies), Christmas (Jesus is gonna die), New Years (Last year just died), or no shave november (my grandma died in november).

it's one reason our culture suffers from such depression and sadness, because our media constantly throws "sad" days, and also (my main irritation atm) super depressing adverts. I understand they have good reason, but it also disgusts me at the same time.

 

[isometry]

yes I do, it's possible, but not everyone. With a generic person with a "generic mind" you could use attempt many methods and one is bound to have some success.
Brain washing can leave people without emotional scars sometimes, so I would call that method a success if they can do it for sexuality.

In a way I agree with you. I believe that for some people sexuality can and does continue changing even when they are adults. Sometimes people identify as transgender in one period of life, and later those feelings subside. Counseling and therapy are definitely options to explore before commiting to an irreversible transition.

On the other hand, there are transsexuals who are very certain and feel very strongly that they want to transition. These people should be allowed to transition and still have respect, dignity, and peace.

In your reply, you "yes it's possible, but not everyone", in answer to my question about whether straight people can choose to be transgender. It seems like you recognize that some people are really straight and could never change that, while other people identify as straight but could potentially change. I agree with you on this, and I am trying to explain that transsexuals are the same way: some of them are very certainly transsexual and they know they need to transition, others don't feel as intensely about it.

I agree that anyone who thinks they might be transsexual, but isn't certain, should explore other therapy options for years before transitioning. Believe it or not, this is what the law requires also: transsexuals are required to live as their new choosen gender for months or years before legally seeking sexual reassignment surgery.

So the bottom line is, society already has a system that makes transsexuals attend years of therapy and counseling to make sure they are making the right decision for their lives. But after that process, if someone feels just as strongly about transitioning as ever, then they are allowed to do it.

 

[Mischa87]

You're right and wrong in equal measure. I will concede that you are correct that no one chooses to be trans, just as I didn't choose to be gay. However, I (and they) choose to live life that way.

That's where things part ways really, being trans is a great deal different from being gay, or bi, or pansexual, or asexual, etc. I doubt most people are aware of this, but there's an occurrence that happens to transsexuals, known in the community as having your "alarm/bell go off" Basically, what it means, is sort of like you mention below, an "epiphany" of sorts, but this isn't along the lines of "Hey, I like men/women/both/everyone/no one" It's more like... Something is VERY wrong here, I need to fix it, or die... It really is a do or die thing with most transpeople (Hence the obscene suicide rates) Like I mentioned in another thread the other week, the feeling is indescribable, I've known about 200~ transpeople over the years, both professionally, and personally, and I've yet to find anyone that can quite find the words to describe it... The best I could come up with was "Overwhelming wrongness"

Now, this is not to trivialize the internal turmoil that you (or anyone with any sort of difference) had/has/will have to face, but it really is a whole 'nother kettle of fish, for the majority of transpeople, there's no option of ignoring this situation.

You're also right that people shouldn't victimize us for being who we are, but they're going to do it anyway, and whimpering about (and holding rememberence days for) it does nothing.

It raises awareness, and helps those who were affected, but yes, other than those, it doesn't do much, but it does something good, which makes it worth doing, no?

I decided that, if I was going to accept this self, I would have to put up with hatred and possibly people who may want to hurt or kill me. So I learned to defend myself and cultivated awareness and restraint. I worked at it, and I think I became better than I would otherwise have been. I earned what I have. Every last shred of it. I never gave up, even when things were dark and lonely.

Well hey, that's great! I'm glad you could turn the fear, and turmoil into strength, I know a lot of people who could benefit from that if they could pull it off (Not everyone can though, keep that in mind)

So don't ask me to pity those who have died because they would not fight for themselves.

However, I will stand with you against those who would oppress us.

I never asked for pity from anyone here really, I'm merely bringing facts and awareness to the table, and attempting to help those affected by this hate/ignorance.

And I'm pretty sure plenty of the people affected by this hate/ignorance have fought for themselves, I could tell you some real horror stories about my own experiences, as well as friends I've had... and lost, who could be called nothing less than a fighter, they braved the world, and fought with all their might, some of them have fallen doing so, and for that, we should remember them, no?

 

[weker]

"Yep I think you got me down correctly there and we agree" REPLY SNIP

I don't like how society is changing in some way, while it would be nice to have a giant amount of freedom, I think it devalues many choices and would make much of life boring

I hope we don't become a world which is entirely bound to "full freedom" as I feel it would again devalue humanity and it's potential.

Your one year comment made me go on about this XD

 

[x-machina]

To want to "cure" someone from transgenderism is as bigoted as wanting to "cure" homosexuals in the 1940s, or wanting to "cure" non-believers in previous centuries.

Perspective people. Everyone immediately compares things they don't agree with to the worst things imaginable. I can't stand it. A modern day christian support group that teaches people to be heterosexual is NOT as bad as the Spanish Inquisition. Or any of the other horrors the church has done to non-believers in previous centuries.

If you took the time to think about what are saying, you would realize it's ridiculous. I'm kinda rambling here, but it just bugs me when people compare rather mundane shit, to horrifying crimes against humanity.

 

[Thaluikhain]

To want to "cure" someone from transgenderism is as bigoted as wanting to "cure" homosexuals in the 1940s, or wanting to "cure" non-believers in previous centuries.

Perspective people. Everyone immediately compares things they don't agree with to the worst things imaginable. I can't stand it. A modern day christian support group that teaches people to be heterosexual is NOT as bad as the Spanish Inquisition. Or any of the other horrors the church has done to non-believers in previous centuries.

If you took the time to think about what are saying, you would realize it's ridiculous. I'm kinda rambling here, but it just bugs me when people compare rather mundane shit, to horrifying crimes against humanity.

From my reading of that quote, it's not so much the crime, it's the attitude behind it, which was being compared. People X are broken, and we must take it upon ourselves to fix them.

[small]As an aside, the Spanish Inquisition was overshadowed by alot of other ones (and less formal witch hunts) that don't seem to get mentioned.[/small]

 

[Velocity Eleven]

This thread is an example of the ignorance that exists in the world around trans-issues

 

[isometry]

Perspective people. Everyone immediately compares things they don't agree with to the worst things imaginable. I can't stand it. A modern day christian support group that teaches people to be heterosexual is NOT as bad as the Spanish Inquisition. Or any of the other horrors the church has done to non-believers in previous centuries.

If you took the time to think about what are saying, you would realize it's ridiculous. I'm kinda rambling here, but it just bugs me when people compare rather mundane shit, with horrifying crimes against humanity.

I understand your point, we should not be to quick to compare modern plights with the great atrocities of history as people often do with slavery, the holocaust, and yes the inquisition.

On the other hand, first recognize that human suffering is a relative phenomenon. Even though being homeless in America is not as bad as being in a 3rd world warzone of disease and faminine, which in turn is not as bad as being a tortured slave in the middle ages, people in all three of those situations have something in common: their spirits may be completely broken, they may be at their wit's end, they may be depressed and have lost the will to live.

In other words, once a person has only suffering and no joy in their life, there is nothing left to take away from them, they are at rock bottom. This is the sense in which all of these sad lives I'm describing have something in common with their suffering.

Have you ever heard of Alan Turing, one of the founding fathers of computer science? Forget about entrepreneurs live Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, Turing was a pioneering mathematician who created the model of computing machines that we still use today, we call them Turing Machines.

It also turned out that the genius who gave us computer science was a homosexual, and in 1952 he was prosecuted in Great Britain for the crime of homosexuality. He was sentenced to a form of "cure": chemical castration, i.e. taking female hormones, that the authorities believed would "cure" his illegal urges. Because of this embarassment and the appaling "treatment", Turing commited suicide two years later, at the age of 42.

Now, the reason I tell that story, is because according to my system of values, Turing's life was more valueable than that of the average man. Don't get me wrong, every life matters, but to lose someone like that is a tragedy for all of civilization. So when I compare the misguided "cures" for homosexuality to persecution of non-believers, I'm not just talking the total amount of physical pain and death, I am talking about losing priceless geniuses, or leaders, or artists, to the senseless idea of curing that which does not need a cure.