Tropes vs Women SECOND VIDEO - "Damsel in Distress: Part 2"
- Thread starter IceForce
- Start date
Recommended Videos
I'm sure this has been said before in many different ways on this exact thread, but after the first page of replies I've decided to just skip ahead a bit.
Many games use violence against specific women (loved ones) to justify mass murder done against any man (or with debatable irony, any woman) who stands in the characters way toward gaining their vengeance on the man who used the violence against the specific women (loved ones). When you look at the games through that lens... there's really nothing good to see. Yes, it's terrible that Double Dragon opens with the girlfriend being punched in the guts and kidnapped. Does that justify the violence done to hundreds(?) of guys (and some women, IIRC) in the game ok? What gives the character the right to commit mass murder in the Max Payne - the fact that most of the victims are Mafia or Mercenaries working for a corrupt corporation?
I realize that this video series has a feminist viewpoint, but I think the magnification is a bit too high to be of any decent value; violence against women is merely one of a litany of terrible things in video games. Taking it out and displaying it on its own gives the illusion that is one of the greater issues in video games, when it might not be - mass murder, theft, rampant lawbreaking (trespassing, espionage, fraud, break-and-enter, etc.) are all far more prevalent in games and a majority of victims are male. When looking at video games under the magnification that Sarkeesian is using, these are at least as distressing as the use of women in video games.
Her argument becomes far more powerful when she focuses on the LACK of women in video games, IMO. Particularly in the role of a playable protagonist. If she were to focus on calling for more playable female protagonists - say reverse the roles of Michelle and Max Payne, where Michelle is the cop who comes to find her journalist husband and her infant daughter killed, and goes out to extract vengeance. Maybe the writers would think that wasn't a great way to start the game off with her, so they'd do something else. Move beyond the Woman in Fridge/Damsel in Distress tropes into something different. Quite possibly by focusing on simply having more playable female protagonists, she might be able to break down these tropes far more effectively than simply by pointing them out and saying how theoretically damaging these tropes are.
Many games use violence against specific women (loved ones) to justify mass murder done against any man (or with debatable irony, any woman) who stands in the characters way toward gaining their vengeance on the man who used the violence against the specific women (loved ones). When you look at the games through that lens... there's really nothing good to see. Yes, it's terrible that Double Dragon opens with the girlfriend being punched in the guts and kidnapped. Does that justify the violence done to hundreds(?) of guys (and some women, IIRC) in the game ok? What gives the character the right to commit mass murder in the Max Payne - the fact that most of the victims are Mafia or Mercenaries working for a corrupt corporation?
I realize that this video series has a feminist viewpoint, but I think the magnification is a bit too high to be of any decent value; violence against women is merely one of a litany of terrible things in video games. Taking it out and displaying it on its own gives the illusion that is one of the greater issues in video games, when it might not be - mass murder, theft, rampant lawbreaking (trespassing, espionage, fraud, break-and-enter, etc.) are all far more prevalent in games and a majority of victims are male. When looking at video games under the magnification that Sarkeesian is using, these are at least as distressing as the use of women in video games.
Her argument becomes far more powerful when she focuses on the LACK of women in video games, IMO. Particularly in the role of a playable protagonist. If she were to focus on calling for more playable female protagonists - say reverse the roles of Michelle and Max Payne, where Michelle is the cop who comes to find her journalist husband and her infant daughter killed, and goes out to extract vengeance. Maybe the writers would think that wasn't a great way to start the game off with her, so they'd do something else. Move beyond the Woman in Fridge/Damsel in Distress tropes into something different. Quite possibly by focusing on simply having more playable female protagonists, she might be able to break down these tropes far more effectively than simply by pointing them out and saying how theoretically damaging these tropes are.
Fantastic video, I think. At this point, she's going to great lengths to point out the problem... which is leading some people to say, "Well, offer some SOLUTIONS, then!"
But some of these folks don't realize just how many people actively deny there's a problem at all. She's done some pretty exhaustive work to dig up examples (old and new) of these unfortunate plot devices, how and when they happen, and why they're harmful. What's more, she's done it in a very even-handed way, considering the subject matter.
Sometimes you can't rush into advising folks on how to fix a problem. Sometimes you have to chip away, bit by bit, at the wall they put up to hide the fact that the problem exists. That's all she's working on at this point. I imagine this will continue in the next video, when she (I believe) points out just how difficult it is to find gender reversals of these tropes -- and, inevitably, the fact that the games actually play that reversal for laughs, or otherwise paint it as outlandish.
But some of these folks don't realize just how many people actively deny there's a problem at all. She's done some pretty exhaustive work to dig up examples (old and new) of these unfortunate plot devices, how and when they happen, and why they're harmful. What's more, she's done it in a very even-handed way, considering the subject matter.
Sometimes you can't rush into advising folks on how to fix a problem. Sometimes you have to chip away, bit by bit, at the wall they put up to hide the fact that the problem exists. That's all she's working on at this point. I imagine this will continue in the next video, when she (I believe) points out just how difficult it is to find gender reversals of these tropes -- and, inevitably, the fact that the games actually play that reversal for laughs, or otherwise paint it as outlandish.
Ya know for all the criticisms leveled at Anita's videos, her damsel in distress line isn't bad, and I look forward to part 3. Especially part 3 since I'm pretty well aware of the DiD trope that's irrirated me for ages, and am interested in it's reversals even though they'll likely be games I've never heard of.
I pretty much agree with her points.
There really is no right way to approach the matter is there, tough? Even though I preferred Jim Sterling's approaches on the matter as he diversified his points a bit, was briefer, and more entertaining people tear into him too.
Even if you don't agree on the presentation, as Jim said, even if it's through gritted teeth, can we at least agree there's a problem?
I guess there'll always be dudebros defending the status quo. Or people who're bored and will argue just to argue.
I pretty much agree with her points.
There really is no right way to approach the matter is there, tough? Even though I preferred Jim Sterling's approaches on the matter as he diversified his points a bit, was briefer, and more entertaining people tear into him too.
Even if you don't agree on the presentation, as Jim said, even if it's through gritted teeth, can we at least agree there's a problem?
I guess there'll always be dudebros defending the status quo. Or people who're bored and will argue just to argue.
She did a kickstarter and raised 150k and so people are critical of the content. It is really quite lazy and the supposed credentials of her are why people give a shit. Basically she has pull in reaching a lot of people and seems to be the media's darling.Aethren said:
Honestly with 150k i could survive for 13 years without doing a thing. So to pay that much for the development of a video series, this seems fairly basic and can be accomplished by reading tv tropes.
My opinion. This program as a kickstarter was a waste of money/time. could do alot with 150k, but was that necessary for the good of a script, a camera, and some editing. Nope. Anyways looks she again went with blatant examples, over emphasizes the place of video games in society like it's actually something to be taken seriously, as well as using non recent games, because recent ones have advanced in her favor. Acting basically like a historical documentary if you think about it.
And finally, she's pulling on the strings of "anti-feminism" throughout games and criticizing them, even though every other thing like movies and shows, use the exact same story plots, such as the revenge for [insert dead loved one of the protagonist] to attempt to get the audience engaged. It's the same old shitt, and you can't expect it to change because you want it to. Might be because the stories for games use these unoriginal plots to support the actual cause for the gameplay.
Which is what most people come for anyways. Though it wouldn't hurt for good story every now and then.
And finally, she's pulling on the strings of "anti-feminism" throughout games and criticizing them, even though every other thing like movies and shows, use the exact same story plots, such as the revenge for [insert dead loved one of the protagonist] to attempt to get the audience engaged. It's the same old shitt, and you can't expect it to change because you want it to. Might be because the stories for games use these unoriginal plots to support the actual cause for the gameplay.
Which is what most people come for anyways. Though it wouldn't hurt for good story every now and then.
Some of what she wants to present as novel, such as her self-coined "damsel in the refrigerator" can be traced back, in a fashion, to something as ancient as Orpheus and Euydice. And that's a powerful story. Now, I will give her immense credit and say that she's specific and adds the general qualification that she's talking about women who are abused or explicitly assaulted in an excessively violent manner and that makes things more clear. The issue is the notion of helplessness but the greater danger is violence towards women.
But if you look at individual elements, a larger question becomes execution in some regards. Hence the above reference to Orpheus. Hades has Eurydice's soul. He is one a quest to bring her back. On a surface level, that's the damsel trope. But if you asked if that was a problem, I doubt she'd say it was. Except, perhaps, insofar as it idealizes patriarchal values (and that'd be a fair argument point). Where does the difference rest? Well, Orpheus doesn't head down to the Underworld and cut a swath through demons and beat Hades. He played some music. And even then, he loses her.
Now, this is not said to dismiss what she's saying. The main point stands: the issue of violence towards women and the notion that are expendable/helpless but when it comes to a story, be it games, movies, oral tradition, literature, or anything else...the sum of the whole is worth more consideration than the pieces, I feel. Or, rather, the relative worth of the individual pieces is to be judged on the merit of how well they served the whole.
This is why I can deal with Zelda getting captured near the end of Ocarina of Time while getting pissed off at how women are treated, overall, in God of War.
But if you look at individual elements, a larger question becomes execution in some regards. Hence the above reference to Orpheus. Hades has Eurydice's soul. He is one a quest to bring her back. On a surface level, that's the damsel trope. But if you asked if that was a problem, I doubt she'd say it was. Except, perhaps, insofar as it idealizes patriarchal values (and that'd be a fair argument point). Where does the difference rest? Well, Orpheus doesn't head down to the Underworld and cut a swath through demons and beat Hades. He played some music. And even then, he loses her.
Now, this is not said to dismiss what she's saying. The main point stands: the issue of violence towards women and the notion that are expendable/helpless but when it comes to a story, be it games, movies, oral tradition, literature, or anything else...the sum of the whole is worth more consideration than the pieces, I feel. Or, rather, the relative worth of the individual pieces is to be judged on the merit of how well they served the whole.
This is why I can deal with Zelda getting captured near the end of Ocarina of Time while getting pissed off at how women are treated, overall, in God of War.
Thing is, EA actually did change this part of the original story during the game adaptation. In the original story, Beatrice had already died at the start of an unmentioned cause (although it is implied that she was not murdered) and Dante was in a particularly dark place as he grieved for his lost love.Ronack said:
The section relating to Inferno is the part where Dante travels through hell and at the end in the 7th level escapes from the presence of the frozen Lucifer into Purgatory. Beatrice (I think that is her actual name from the Divine Comedy) only appears again near the end of the third section (Paradise) where she is seen as a beautiful glowing woman of light. After seeing her here, Dante realizes that she is at peace and in a better place and is able to recover from the worst of his grief and move on with his waking life (It's been a while since I've heard it). Unfortunately in the video game we got, the story is a god of war clone triggered by a fridged damsel plot device.
The 'euthanaised damsel' is a whole different level of issues and disturbing, although a game that explored the emotional and ethical issues surrounding palliative and end of life care could be a powerful interactive experience if done with care and respect.
As for the videos themselves, I think it would be better if she made them a shorter length as they begin to feel like lecture recordings with moving pictures.
Hm, interesting points and notes, I wonder if she will bring up The Longest Journey later.
Slightly off topic, I never liked the term feminist, as it seems to imply female dominance instead of equality.
I like equalist better.
Har har har. But I'm serious.
Slightly off topic, I never liked the term feminist, as it seems to imply female dominance instead of equality.
I like equalist better.
Har har har. But I'm serious.
If I disagree with something in that video, it may be because my observations and experiences are different, or because as far as I know, a "discussion" involves at least two parties, so I can't for the life of me agree that anything was "discussed" in it, despite her stating otherwise there toward the end, even using "we have discussed", despite there only being one of her, so there hasn't been a discussion about anything, nor a reason to use plural.Mick P. said:
I'm 30, and I have disagreed with something in the video. If that makes me "mad as a fucking hatter", well, I suppose I'm mad as a fucking hatter. I've still reported your post, though.
Ah, right, insights, yes I suppose I did say that. Well, I suppose learning and education isn't the point of a documentary then. I'm curious whether Sakreesian herself would agree that educating people wasn't the point of her video, though. You sure you want to say that wasn't the point on her behalf?
Actually, Skyrim and WoW are great examples. There are some very well written support female characters in those games. Not so many in Skyrim, but the few that are (Serana from Dawnguard) are great characters. Janna from WoW I consider a well written character, and always enjoy her scenes.firmicute said:Rpgs where the main char isnt written: skyrim, WOwPhaerim said:First of all I don't agree with her on the part of games having problem portraying women, because some of my favourite games (Baldur's Gate, Guild Wars, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Mirror's Edge, Final Fantasy X, Skyrim, World of Warcraft, Bioshock, Silent Hill series etc.) include so many well written female characters.
We think alike
dragon age&mass effect are from a studio which is known for their way of progressiveness and good characterization-so ther is nothinc to critizise-and she does not. These tropes (euthanized girlfriend, murdered and stolen girlfriend etc) arent in this games, so you i thing you just missed the point.
and-its not about one game or another-ist about all, ist about the prevalence of this kidn of tropes in games in general.
she eeven named/showd mirrors edge as a good example for good characterization of women (with-a female player character AND a PoC player character. which isnt very often the case.Soo remember me)
Bastion is one of the best experiences I've had in media in a long time. Annita really dropped the ball on that one when she insulted it. I cried in that game, and it was just full of amazing moments. Heavy Rain, while lacking in the gameplay area, was also well done, and the ending, I was actually upset when I found out the truth. Dark Souls was another amazing game.Mick P. said:
Games are doing great, just not the AAA area. I often feel there is this terrible blanket thrown across gaming due to the CoDs and such.
An emulator? It only came out a few years ago. Supergiant games is working on their next game right now too, Transistor I think is the name? It is looking interesting. Have you seen anything on Bastion? Game narratives don't come better, and one of the only games I've seen to apply a narrator to a game, and it just delivers.Mick P. said: