Universities -- Misconceptions

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Partial snip!

Oh, this applies to American universities. If you aren't American and don't go to an American university, then please, don't tell me how "I'm wrong". I'm speaking only on what I know (which is American universities), and could care less how this generalizes to other cultures. I don't mean to sound like a jerk with this statement, but I want to avoid the inevitable "Oh, well I go to a university in X country, and this isn't true here!".

Granted, universities are businesses, and businesses can be horribly mismanaged. Case in point, the Université du Québec à Montréal (UQAM), which is where I happen to go. They needed a new student parking space and tried to build a multi-tier parking garage. Cost estimates were wildly undershot, so much so that the dean had to resign when faced with his financial incompetence.

Still, that doesn't change the fact that universities are bipartite entities. You deal with the business end of things when you register, obtain your student card, get your schedule for the semester, etc. You deal with the academic side when you're handing in reports, spending days in the library for a bibliography project, or otherwise wooing teachers so one of them agrees to support your thesis.

You sound like you've got a chip on your shoulder, OP. Has something happened in your personal relationship with an institution of higher learning that caused that overall sense of disillusion? I get it that you might be sick of the "Dead Poets Society"-ish idolization of university as a concept, but you have to admit those of us who do choose to enroll in one aren't terribly concerned with the business end of things.

In Canada, a single semester costs around 700$ for the Master's degree. I know that's a far cry from what Americans pay, but for someone who only makes about ten bucks an hour, that's an absolute fortune. That shit be expensive, man; and I can only comfort myself in thinking that sixteen other people got chosen and were allowed to pay that motherload because we, well, fucking love books and fucking love nerding all over some author or another, to put it bluntly.

In other words, my passion and my desire to see this through will always defeat any and all peals of nihilistic realism I might experience at the sight of the bill I have to heft just to attend two classes of three hours each. I'm not doing this because I'm expecting to get a job at the end of it all; I'm doing it because I love it.

Wait a minute: A Master's degree costs $700 a semester, /and/ an entry level job pays out $10 an hour? I'm going to school in the wrong country. Around here, minimum wage is under $8 an hour, and tuition is measured in thousands of dollars even at the undergrad level, and even in public schools; a master's degree costs a fortune around here. In the US, even those of us who have scholarships coming out of our ears usually wind up in debt.

 

[HerbertTheHamster]

You're from the US, so yes. That's true there.

 

[Pinkamena]

Eh, I don't know. In norway, going to the universities is practically free (tiny little fee every semester. Negligible).

 

[Lilani]

So we have two opposite viewpoints, one says university is everything while the other says it's nothing.

I give up, no millionairre ever got rich as a result of "education" nor do genuinely intelligent people stay poor through any fault of their own, whether it is a lack of contacts or lack of opportunity or just because they are poor they cannot afford to (with rich people being elitists, I wouldn't count on them wishing to get involved with the commoners)

I bet neither of you can explain how valuable university actually is when "unpaid internship" completely undermines the whole meritocratic idea seeing as a lot of highly paid jobs are unaccessible to those who cannot afford to work for NOTHING.

Do you even go to college? You seem to have a very rudimentary concept of what it's for.

I never said college was EVERYTHING. Of course it isn't for EVERY single path in life. If that were the case, we'd be a country of businesspeople and scientists, with no laborers. But my major is computer animation. I NEED an education in order to do that. I need to learn the programs and the basics of filmmaking and character animation. If I had the money I'd go to an art school, but I can only afford state college.

If you want to go to college, go to college. If you don't want to, then don't. You and your circumstances are not the only ones that exist in the world. Considering the way public education is slowly falling to pieces, I'm thankful we have a secondary education system at all.

You seem to have a personal vendetta with college. Well fine, whatever. Don't go. I'm sure you'll get a job somewhere at some point. But don't ask for its disestablishment just because it's not your thing. I don't like mayonnaise, but I don't send letters for Kraft asking them to stop producing the foul stuff. Universities are a great benefit to society today. Completely ignoring the educational aspect, a good portion of medical and scientific breakthroughs come from universities and their sponsored affiliates. Sure, the system isn't perfect, but what is these days? It's for some, not everyone, and it's gotten harder recently because you actually have to KEEP TRYING before and after you get your degree. Boo hoo.

snip

I think you proved my point, university is no longer valuable because as you said, the course is pointless if you don't have all the time in the world to go and do all the wonderful unrelated things!

Hey, I never said unrelated things. Hell, I never said it required all the time in the world. Remember what I said earlier? I'm learning one computer animation program in classes, however on the side I'm learning others that will also be beneficial to me in the future. They don't teach those other programs, but I know if I want to get anywhere I'm going to have to know them all. I'm not in college to become a millionaire. I'm in college to become an animator, and only college offers the education I need to learn the skills of the trade.

So, let's say you're a business or management major. What could be beneficial to that? Exercises in leadership. Join a student organization, maybe one that orchestrates campus events. Do research on things you merely touched on in class and do some further reading. Take a foreign language class if it isn't required--or if it is, take up through the highest level of that language to become fluent. Make sure your electives are things that will help you in whatever career you're after (for example, if you are a business major take history classes that focus on the industrial revolution and the 20th century).

There are plenty of ways you can make your education work for you. Sure, it WILL take extra time to do some of those things, but even doing just one would be beneficial in the end. You just have to be smart and think about the classes you take, and think about where you focus your efforts.

I really don't know how else to explain it. I think the reason I've hung onto this for so long is because you seem to misinterpret everything I say. I've made it about as crystal clear as I can. Hell, here's a bulleted list just for giggles:

- College = Not for everybody
- Degree =/= automatic job
- Degrees are more common, so employers have to get more picky about who they hire
- More pickiness = more effort required to make yourself stand out
- Being active in college = looks good on resume. Makes you stand out.
- Unpaid internship = Gaining experience and contacts (which you yourself said are the most important) so you can get yourself INTO a paid position at some point

You seem to think that just because college, unpaid internships, and the like aren't easy that means they're inherently bad. If that's how you feel about everything in life, then I'm afraid you are sadly mistaken.

 

[Shivarage]

Here is my advice to you.

The point of going to University is to get an education. It is to learn. It is to expand your mind, your horizons.

People who think the point of going to University is to get a job are looking at it the wrong way. If all you want is to get a job, you can go to a Vocational school and become a Nursing Assistant or a Mechanic.

If you are going to go, unless you want to go to grad school in a specific field, it doesn't matter what you major in. Even then you can sometimes get around that. When I was getting my PhD in Musicology, I had fellow grad students who had majored in Computer Science, Economics, and Women's Studies sitting alongside of me. Major in what inspires you, major in what you love. Take a wide variety of classes. Challenge yourself. Soak up all the knowledge you can get...that also includes talking to your peers at 2 in the morning about the meaning of life, being involved in sports or a music ensemble or student government or student publications. Be part of your campus community.

Many of the things that you'll get out of college are hard to quantify, but they are the things that will help you be successful long term. College is not a collection of trivia, it is a process.

Tell that to the employers who ask for a degree in anything at all just for the sake of asking for a degree or they won't even consider you for a job... you will be laughed at

 

[Shivarage]

Snip

How can you say unpaid internships are good? they completely outcast the poor who cannot afford it... obviously you weren't affected by this and I'm wasting my time talking to an elitist, rich fool who benefits from keeping universities useless and jobs out of reach of the poor.

Good day to you! >_>

 

[Lilani]

Snip

How can you say unpaid internships are good? they completely outcast the poor who cannot afford it... obviously you weren't affected by this and I'm wasting my time talking to an elitist, rich fool who benefits from keeping universities useless and jobs out of reach of the poor.

Good day to you! >_>

I don't know what sorts of unpaid internships you're talking about, but most unpaid internships I'm aware of are essentially part-time positions. They leave you plenty of time to take other classes and hold a job at the same time. It's not like they're asking you to work 60 hours a week for nothing.

The sorts of unpaid internships I know about are essentially jobshadowing positions. You go in, observe, help out as needed, and gain a more hands-on knowledge about the position. In other words, you already have some training, and you gain experience in the field. But because you're learning more than working, you aren't doing quite enough to be enough of an asset to be given money. Then most of the time, you will have the opportunity to seek a paid position after a certain amount of time. Also, it's not like unpaid internships are the ONLY way to gain experience in any given industry. It's just one of many paths and possibilities.

And you seem to be forgetting there are plenty of paid internships out there. Hell, I worked at Disney World under a paid internship just a couple of years ago. And as far as I know, none of the internships Disney offers are unpaid. Just because unpaid internships EXIST it doesn't mean paid ones don't, as well.

So I say if there are people willing to take unpaid positions that are offered, then by god just let them. Also, in case you haven't noticed, college already favors those who aren't destitute in the first place. So if it's unfairness of opportunity you've got a problem with, how about you go and lobby for free primary AND secondary education for all rather than going after jobshadowing?

But hey, whatever. If the only thing in that entire post you had a problem with was unpaid internships, I can live with that.

 

[trooper6]

Tell that to the employers who ask for a degree in anything at all just for the sake of asking for a degree or they won't even consider you for a job... you will be laughed at

What you are saying is not contradicting what I said at all.

I'm saying major in what you care about because with few exceptions, your major doesn't matter, what matters is the larger educational experience. That is why there are all those employers who ask for a degree in anything. They aren't asking because all they care about is a piece of paper because they are random and arbitrary, they are asking because they want someone who has gotten the education you get when you get a BA (writing skills, critical thinking and analytical skills, communication skills, etc).

 

[Shivarage]

snip

I have yet to meet anyone who has learned any of those things from education... and obviously employers don't care about "the larger educational experience" because they are well aware that is not real life experience or they would not make people do "unpaid internships"

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Partial snip!

Oh, this applies to American universities. If you aren't American and don't go to an American university, then please, don't tell me how "I'm wrong". I'm speaking only on what I know (which is American universities), and could care less how this generalizes to other cultures. I don't mean to sound like a jerk with this statement, but I want to avoid the inevitable "Oh, well I go to a university in X country, and this isn't true here!".

Granted, universities are businesses, and businesses can be horribly mismanaged. Case in point, the Université du Québec à Montréal (UQAM), which is where I happen to go. They needed a new student parking space and tried to build a multi-tier parking garage. Cost estimates were wildly undershot, so much so that the dean had to resign when faced with his financial incompetence.

Still, that doesn't change the fact that universities are bipartite entities. You deal with the business end of things when you register, obtain your student card, get your schedule for the semester, etc. You deal with the academic side when you're handing in reports, spending days in the library for a bibliography project, or otherwise wooing teachers so one of them agrees to support your thesis.

You sound like you've got a chip on your shoulder, OP. Has something happened in your personal relationship with an institution of higher learning that caused that overall sense of disillusion? I get it that you might be sick of the "Dead Poets Society"-ish idolization of university as a concept, but you have to admit those of us who do choose to enroll in one aren't terribly concerned with the business end of things.

In Canada, a single semester costs around 700$ for the Master's degree. I know that's a far cry from what Americans pay, but for someone who only makes about ten bucks an hour, that's an absolute fortune. That shit be expensive, man; and I can only comfort myself in thinking that sixteen other people got chosen and were allowed to pay that motherload because we, well, fucking love books and fucking love nerding all over some author or another, to put it bluntly.

In other words, my passion and my desire to see this through will always defeat any and all peals of nihilistic realism I might experience at the sight of the bill I have to heft just to attend two classes of three hours each. I'm not doing this because I'm expecting to get a job at the end of it all; I'm doing it because I love it.

Wait a minute: A Master's degree costs $700 a semester, /and/ an entry level job pays out $10 an hour? I'm going to school in the wrong country. Around here, minimum wage is under $8 an hour, and tuition is measured in thousands of dollars even at the undergrad level, and even in public schools; a master's degree costs a fortune around here. In the US, even those of us who have scholarships coming out of our ears usually wind up in debt.

He said $700 was for Canada, but that's actually just Quebec. They are among the lowest (if not the lowest) tuition rates in Canada. In Ontario, for example, tuition runs $2000-4,000/year for a basic program, and in a specialty program like dentistry you could be paying as much as $40,000/year.

Okay, that's a bit more in line with what we see in the US. I think the average (with in state tuition; state residents get a huge discount) in a Florida state school is a little over $4,000. You guys are still getting a better deal than us, assuming the actual quality of the education is comparable, but it's not as much better of a deal as it looked.

Edit: The $4,000 figure is for undergrad, obviously.

 

[Ruley]

Being brutally honest with you (from a UK students point of view) yeah, your universities are basically businesses - the more money you pay out, the more worth your degree has when you graduate (MIT, Harved, etc). It totally removes the driver for learning and research as people who could arguably benefit more from the facilities offered at, say, MIT end up not getting in because they don't have the cash - but that person could have learnt from such a good professor that he suddenly gave us Hyperdrive engines! Whereas, a guy who was funded through by rich parents just coasted through and was dumped out with a mediocre degree.

As much as we might whine over here in the UK about rising tuition fees, it could be a lot worse. Across the pond over here, at least their is a standardisation of fees so education seemingly takes priority as the main driving force of our universities!

 

[Palademon]

I thought the romanticising of universities came from the fact that most people learned to stop being assholes and be more open minded by then, so people who had trouble in lower levels of education finally get a good social life.

 

[trooper6]

snip

I have yet to meet anyone who has learned any of those things from education... and obviously employers don't care about "the larger educational experience" because they are well aware that is not real life experience or they would not make people do "unpaid internships"

You haven't met anyone who's learned writing skills, communications skills, critical thinking skills or analytical reasoning skills. That's interesting. I, on the other hand, who works as a University Professor, and have taught and graded and advised hundreds of students at top Universities have seen people gain those skills.

As for unpaid internships, 1) not all businesses have unpaid internships. Also 2) If employers who do employ unpaid internships didn't care about the experience one get's from going to University and truly thought there was no value to higher education, they'd give those unpaid internships to people who didn't go to college and just went to high school...or didn't even graduate high school...because they'd be cheaper. But that isn't the case.

 

[trooper6]

Being brutally honest with you (from a UK students point of view) yeah, you're universities are basically businesses - the more money you pay out, the more worth your degree has when you graduate (MIT, Harved, etc). It totally removes the driver for learning and research as people who could arguably benefit more from the facilities offered at, say, MIT end up not getting in because they don't have the cash - but that person could have learnt from such a good professor that he suddenly gave us Hyperdrive engines! Whereas, a guy who was funded through by rich parents just coasted through and was dumped out with a mediocre degree.

As much as we might whine over here in the UK about rising tuition fees, it could be a lot worse. Across the pond over here, at least their is a standardisation of fees so education seemingly takes priority as the main driving force of our universities!

Except that's not exactly how it works in the US. Most of the big Universities have what is called "need blind admissions." This means they make a decision for admittance based on your application, not your wallet. So if you are poor and smart, you can get into MIT. So the next question becomes, can you afford to go? The federal government and state government have need-based fellowships, and the really prestigious schools have large endowments that they use to cover your fees if you don't have money. If you get into Harvard and you don't have money, their financial aid office will take care of it.

As an example, when I was a kid, I grew up really, really poor. My mother was kicked out of her home at the age of 16 by her mother who was abusive and psychotic...so she never finished high school. She had me when she was 19. She was a single mom who was a stripper and then later on welfare (what you'd call The Dole). She met my step-dad and things got better...I joined the Army after high school. When it finally came time for me to go to college, they could not help me financially and I had no money. I applied to and got accepted to a school that was very, very good and very, very expensive. $50,000 a year...so we are looking at a bill for $200,000 for my education. The GI Bill would take care of $25,000 of it, but there was still $175,000 to cover. Through a combination of federal and state grants, the GI Bill, and support from the school, I ended up paying a total of $11,000 for my education which I funded through student loans. And at my alma mater over 70% of the student body was on financial aid.

So, actually, poor people can go to the best schools. And I ended up getting my PhD and now teach at a top University. And in that process of being at University I learned a lot of writing skills, communication skills, critical thinking skills, analytical reasoning skills, as well as more specific things related to my majors and the other courses I took.

 

[Shivarage]

how about you go and lobby for free primary AND secondary education for all rather than going after jobshadowing?

The classic politicians diversion, why pay attention to the turkey when you can fight over the peanuts...

Unpaid "internships" (ie. slavery) shouldn't even exist if universities were fulfilling their purpose in the first place or employers were taking them seriously - they do exist which means employers don't really believe education is worth even minimum wage.

There aren't actually a lot of paid internships, my friend couldn't find one and is now in an unpaid one which is 8 hours a day without even travel or food compensation, he works weekends just to make ends meet in his friend's flat.

Really... I don't see why we are arguing over this, the rich all work together and help each other by hiring each others friends and doing favours for each other all the while giving mixed messages to the stupid poor who end up fighting and never getting along

I am finished, arguing over this kind of stuff is useless because instead of us meeting on good terms and learning to trust one another so that we can better our own lives just like the rich do, we end up trying to get one-up over each other... being in this society means you can be dumb as a post but with the right friends/contacts, you can swim in pools of money because the stupid poor people bicker and get nowhere (Eric Pickles of the conservative party is proof and they are running the country now)

 

[Shivarage]

snip

You haven't met anyone who's learned writing skills, communications skills, critical thinking skills or analytical reasoning skills. That's interesting. I, on the other hand, who works as a University Professor, and have taught and graded and advised hundreds of students at top Universities have seen people gain those skills.

As for unpaid internships, 1) not all businesses have unpaid internships. Also 2) If employers who do employ unpaid internships didn't care about the experience one get's from going to University and truly thought there was no value to higher education, they'd give those unpaid internships to people who didn't go to college and just went to high school...or didn't even graduate high school...because they'd be cheaper. But that isn't the case.[/quote]

Not from university, from living in the real world free from the boundaries of education, in fact - I never learned anything of any significance until I left education for my mind was then able to freely grasp without restraint, I can just imagine Albert Einstein handing in his physics paper titled "the theory of relativity" and getting a failing grade because it was completely wrong according to the current curriculum - no free thinkers or geniuses allowed!

I think you will find the paid internships are in the very minority
How can an unpaid internship be cheaper? poor people can't exactly afford to sustain having to pay for an internship...

And yes, even people who havnt been to university get internships, although most of the time from the employers perspective there is merely a slightly better chance of the graduate staying longer and doing more work for he has a debt to pay and wishes to make something of the paper he worked ever so hard to get... intelligence doesn't even come into it.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

Wait a minute: A Master's degree costs $700 a semester, /and/ an entry level job pays out $10 an hour? I'm going to school in the wrong country. Around here, minimum wage is under $8 an hour, and tuition is measured in thousands of dollars even at the undergrad level, and even in public schools; a master's degree costs a fortune around here. In the US, even those of us who have scholarships coming out of our ears usually wind up in debt.

Maybe so, but you do get what you pay for. Which is to say dated libraries and computers, and teachers who tear their hair off if you so much as ask them to consider using the provided HD projectors. Add poorly maintained databases to that and spotty Wi-Fi and, well... Let's just say the budget price tag makes sense, then.

Ever since I've been given free reign to start constituting my bibliography, I've been hitting as many offsite resources as I possibly could. Getting a monography off campus almost takes a blood sample, and you practically need to sacrifice a kitten to have access to the past theses of former students. The main problem is miscommunication, seeing as requests you send off might take weeks to reach their intended authorities. It's all automated, but I guess the algo that's responsible for prioritizing cases isn't worth shit. Figures, seeing as hooking to the campus Wi-Fi is needlessly complicated.

Despite all that, the teachers do an awesome job - as long as you don't ask them to leave the safety and sanctity of their iBook Airs.

You also have to consider I'm right above minimum wage. The flat entry-level rate here is still 9.50$, last I checked. Any fellow Canucks in here? Pretty sure I'm shooting myself in the foot, I'd like confirmation (or correction, if required). Ten bucks an hour is my rough average, considering I do copy editing for a living. It pays a pittance when someone asks you to translate an email, but it gives a substantial wad back, when you're asked to translate and correct an article destined for academic publication.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Wait a minute: A Master's degree costs $700 a semester, /and/ an entry level job pays out $10 an hour? I'm going to school in the wrong country. Around here, minimum wage is under $8 an hour, and tuition is measured in thousands of dollars even at the undergrad level, and even in public schools; a master's degree costs a fortune around here. In the US, even those of us who have scholarships coming out of our ears usually wind up in debt.

Maybe so, but you do get what you pay for. Which is to say dated libraries and computers, and teachers who tear their hair off if you so much as ask them to consider using the provided HD projectors. Add poorly maintained databases to that and spotty Wi-Fi and, well... Let's just say the budget price tag makes sense, then.

Ever since I've been given free reign to start constituting my bibliography, I've been hitting as many offsite resources as I possibly could. Getting a monography off campus almost takes a blood sample, and you practically need to sacrifice a kitten to have access to the past theses of former students. The main problem is miscommunication, seeing as requests you send off might take weeks to reach their intended authorities. It's all automated, but I guess the algo that's responsible for prioritizing cases isn't worth shit. Figures, seeing as hooking to the campus Wi-Fi is needlessly complicated.

Despite all that, the teachers do an awesome job - as long as you don't ask them to leave the safety and sanctity of their iBook Airs.

You also have to consider I'm right above minimum wage. The flat entry-level rate here is still 9.50$, last I checked. Any fellow Canucks in here? Pretty sure I'm shooting myself in the foot, I'd like confirmation (or correction, if required). Ten bucks an hour is my rough average, considering I do copy editing for a living. It pays a pittance when someone asks you to translate an email, but it gives a substantial wad back, when you're asked to translate and correct an article destined for academic publication.

That makes sense. You're still well ahead of the US on the minimum wage; the national minimum is currently $7.25 here, with individual states having the option of requiring a higher minimum within the borders of the state. In Florida, for example, it's currently $7.31. Considering that the Canadian dollar was trading higher than the US dollar the last time I checked, I'd say you're doing pretty well on that front, even if your education system is lacking.

 

[Zyst]

So "I want to be ignorant, and in Fucking 'MERICA! Universities are money making machines and FUCK YOUR COMMIE COUNTRY."

Really, most universities (At least the good ones) Worldwide are "free" (Operate out of taxes). And you don't pay a cent, might not be like that in America, but please don't lump universities into a group of money grubbing people because it's not like that, hell, most of my teachers are investigators and wouldn't need to teach to keep living a REALLY comfortable life, but they teach because they want to propagate the knowledge, and maybe "pay back" something to their alma matter.

So do not slander Universities, even if they are "money making machines" you still learn a shit load of things I can assure you would be REALLY hard to learn otherwise.