Unrated MMO's banned from sale in Australia

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Varchld

is drunk and disorderly.
Nov 8, 2008
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The legislation has been in since 1995 I think, but mmo's have always been assumed to be classified under the ratings of the country which hosts the servers. That's why they haven't been rated (all except about 2, Vanguard and some other one I can't remember).

It's also Australia wide, the story originated in Victoria I believe.

http://www.massively.com/2009/01/28/mmogs-defy-classification-in-australia/
 

Jinx_Dragon

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Jan 19, 2009
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Peach_hat said:
Did you just compare WoW to narcotics?

My mind is the mind of a teenage gamer and there is nothing less intimidating or socially empowering than MMO players.

To repeat myself. It will not banned because of it's content. As soon as anyone finds that out (which will be straight away) they will instantly just neg it the same way they always have.

Don't try to "pick on someone" who has a more valid point and isn't afraid of suspension.
I'm picking on the fact you seem to think you can speak for everyone, that you are considering yourself the normal when thousands of tests, polls and the likes have proven the forbidden factor exists. It is simple: You might not feel the urge to go out and play these games, but you can't speak for more then yourself. I use drugs because we can get reliable data on the effects banning drugs has produced after banning so many of them for such a long period. The data is there, it proves the forbidden fruit factor. We can't for banned games because we have not really tried to censor games enough to be able to generate enough of a feedback to what will happen.

Now if we expend this issue past a handful of games most teens have never heard of, those that have already probably pirated it, to a whole genre of games that one arsehole in the censorship board decides we can't have the we WILL see this effects happening. Gamer teens will be going to school and baiting other gamer teens over what illegal games they have installed, going over their friends places to play these games and buying/trading pirate copies of them to each other. To have this happen all we need to do is one thing: Get it to the point that most games are censored and tell the kids they 'can't play them.' Hell we already see this happening in young teen with games we have classified, boasting about the fact they have played games classified for older crowds is something I have personally witnessed.

Banning games outright will give them an allure, and just because you show no interest doesn't mean other teens will have your control.

I ask you again: If I was to take an illegal game to the local high school do you think it would be more alluring to the people I try to sell it to or are they going to go 'but that is illegal' and pass up the chance to purchase something that the government is telling them they can not have?
 

Harbinger_

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Jan 8, 2009
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Personally I wish that all the crappy web-based MMOs that are clogging the market could be banned. I mean its great to have a free alternative to WoW but a crappy game is still a crappy game.
 

Jinx_Dragon

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Jan 19, 2009
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Peach_hat said:
You didn't listen did you.
I never once generalized.

I'm talking about WoW, Age of Conan and other MMORPGs.

These games that have been around for a long time and dodged the censorship, not games that were banned for being able to kill someone with a plastic bag.

I speak for everyone this time because (once again R-tard) this is not a content issue.
There is no forbidden fruit element to games that are well established as the most prolific games of all time.

Instead of quoting stats and trying to be facts that are both irrelevant and by no means prove you're right, maybe you could actually read what I said you elitist fuck.
Looking over the original question again I do see I miss read it, but instead of pointing out the fact the original question was misread you felt the need to challenge the point I brought forth. That point, on why WOW would see an increase in sales if banned in this country, is still valid as you addressed that issue. You could of clearly said, 'wait, stop, read again' but instead you challenged the issue of forbidden fruit and now that you can't defend the point you wanted to make so instead you turn to name calling.

I was starting to doubt just how immature you where, considering that it is nearly 2 am in Australia on a school day but now I shall not. So sure, feel comfortable believing that somehow your way of thinking is what every other gaming teen out there has. I bet you can't even see how ironic your 'elitism' insult actually is given your obvious superiority complex. Add claims I didn't read what you wrote there too, which is ironic as well seeing you have shown nothing to suggest you are reading what I have put forth. Or maybe you just lack simple comprehension skills.

I shall close in saying good night, you proven yourself pointless to try and have a mature conversation with.
 

Peach_hat

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Jan 7, 2009
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Jinx_Dragon said:
Peach_hat said:
You didn't listen did you.
I never once generalized.


Instead of quoting stats and trying to be facts that are both irrelevant and by no means prove you're right, maybe you could actually read what I said you elitist fuck.
Looking over the original question again I do see I miss read it, but instead of pointing out the fact the original question was misread you felt the need to challenge the point I brought forth. That point, on why WOW would see an increase in sales if banned in this country, is still valid as you addressed that issue. You could of clearly said, 'wait, stop, read again' but instead you challenged the issue of forbidden fruit and now that you can't defend the point you wanted to make so instead you turn to name calling.

I was starting to doubt just how immature you where, considering that it is nearly 2 am in Australia on a school day but now I shall not. So sure, feel comfortable believing that somehow your way of thinking is what every other gaming teen out there has. I bet you can't even see how ironic your 'elitism' insult actually is given your obvious superiority complex. Add claims I didn't read what you wrote there too, which is ironic as well seeing you have shown nothing to suggest you are reading what I have put forth. Or maybe you just lack simple comprehension skills.
Ugh you had to didn't you.
Some people have finished school and work now.


There is no 'instead of pointing out your mis-reading' it was as well as pointing it out.
Peach_hat said:
That's just plain untrue.
I don't feel compelled to play Postal or Manhunt just because I'm not supposed to be allowed.

They are just going to have to go through a screening process, they aren't badass, just unclassified.
Also peer pressure just plainly doesn't apply here.

All my big tough MMORPG friends made me do it!
This quote is me saying that I wouldn't do it. You turn around and say that I was talking about the rest of the world when I wasn't.

Peach_hat said:
My mind is the mind of a teenage gamer and there is nothing less intimidating or socially empowering than MMO players.

To repeat myself. It will not banned because of it's content. As soon as anyone finds that out (which will be straight away) they will instantly just neg it the same way they always have.
That quote is also me saying what I would do and nobody else and then repeat my case which you completely ignored.

Peach_hat said:
I'm talking about WoW, Age of Conan and other MMORPGs.

I speak for everyone this time because (once again R-tard) this is not a content issue.
There is no forbidden fruit element to games that are well established as the most prolific games of all time.

Instead of quoting stats and trying to be facts that are both irrelevant and by no means prove you're right, maybe you could actually read what I said you elitist fuck.
This is you finally getting the point and me "name calling" because:

1) You put words in my mouth to make your argument sustainable.

2) You patronized me when I was right.

3) It is now 3am.
 

Jinx_Dragon

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I will give you another chance.
I did read the New Zealand as Australia, this comes from speed reading through topics online because there are so many of them and it leads to bad comprehension. I was answering the question why Australia would see boosts in sales, using sociological data. So how else I am I meant to conclude your counter-argument of 'I don't feel compelled' as something other then saying because you don't that means everyone else out there wouldn't either?
How else am I meant to read this as anything but a weak counter argument to the forbidden fruit factor?
Also how is this pointing out that the original question was about New Zealand, and not Australia? To which I have to say the only answer would be because they would by in New Zealand and ship over here to be sold illegally at profit.

I also assumed your age cause you claimed to speak for every Australian teenage gamer out there because you said your mind was one. I could easily make that claim myself if we where not to take age into account, I was a teenager once and a gamer to boot. I know for a fact that during that period of my life something being 'banned' made me more curious as to why. I learned a lot about censorship, how much BS the government throws out there to support its position and how much damage such positions actually cause. It made your argument of 'I didn't so no one else would' more pronounced as you now where claiming to speak for this group.

I had to point out how pathetic such an argument is, and then your response was insults which makes it even more pathetic. Now you want to try and make it about content, which the original question was never even touching on nor was my follow up posts. All I saw this as was an attempt to divert the subject away from the fact that my answer, be it to the wrong question, was valid and that you didn't want to address it any more cause you could not support your counter argument in any way.

As for content: It never was about MMOs but gaming in general. There is nothing in a MMO which would make it difficult to classify, nor is there anything that would prevent the board from just classifying it and telling Sony, blizzard and the likes that this is now the classification to print on the box.

What this will do though is set president that could very easily include OTHER online games then just these unclassified MMOs. Bad laws work like that you know, make a legal argument and then expand it to cover more then what a rational person would originally have thought the boundaries where. Never trust politicians and law makers not to try and 'back door' issues, particularly when they are self proclaimed crusaders hitting against a legal wall.

It could very easily force every game to classify online play separately from their single player base. What keeps a lot of violent games on the shelves is the fact they only have violence as their only real 'negative' and so fall within the M15 rating. This is causing a lot of crusaders to chomp at their bits, as they want to ban these games but can not do so legally. All they need is the legal grounds for a games online play to be 'classifiable,' in other words, all they need to do is close that loophole, then they will have another shot at getting these games banned.

Considering the mentality of online gamers, sad to say, they might achieve a legal argument to include the likes of coarse language, sexual references or a wide range of other tags to the classification of a online game. Having had many years to deal with bad politicians and the scams they run I am very doubtful of this latest 'loophole closing.' Twice so given how many games they leave in purgatory simply because they can't be classified, while fighting to make it so they can never be classified, though yet another loophole in the law.

So yes, I do fear this is a back door attempt to get a wider range of games banned as MMOs are, as yourself pointed out, very tame. I have to ask what do these crusaders benefit from getting online games, in general, to be classifiable. Clearly it is another shot to get a wider range of games banned which they where not legally allowed to do so the first time around.
 

GyroCaptain

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Samurai Goomba said:
Lord Krunk said:
Geez, this right-wing idiocy has gone too far now.

I'm going to have to conform and say 'Fuck The Government!' as well.

But it looks like it's only in NSW, so it's justified; we have had a terrible State Government for longer than I can remember. At least we don't have that Atkinson guy...

Oh yeah.
Can we really call this "right-wing?" I'm so-called "right-wing," and I HATE what's going on over in Australia with games. I mean, aren't Republicans the ones who want more freedom from Government involvement? Wouldn't that naturally extend to games? If a Republican would support the right for citizens to bear arms, wouldn't they also support the rights of adults to enjoy the forms of entertainment they choose?

This has always confused me. To be fair, most of the arbitrary "you are Democrat/Republican, you must support this stance" garbage gets me riled up, but I STILL don't see why ANY logical Conservative/Republican/Human Being/Democrat/Piece of Protoplasm (no, those weren't placed in any kind of sequential order on purpose) wouldn't support an adult's right to enjoy games manufactured for adults. It's the parent's responsibility to be aware of what their kids are doing-every adult in the country shouldn't have to suffer for that.

*ends ranting and raving*
Yes, really. The assumptions attached to right-wing tend to nettle those of us who actually are conservative so. Leave your straw men at the door, they muck up the meeting hall and the ballroom.

Back on topic: so much for Atkinson's allegation that it's only the worst of the worst that get affected by the rating system. Oh wait, these are MMOs. *rimshot*
 

Avatar Roku

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Jul 9, 2008
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Alleged_Alec said:
zen5887 said:
Geez sooner or later we will be calling each other 'Comrade'\
Yeah, because this has everything to do with communism...

Gheghe, I'm kind of curious to see if Yathzee is going to mention this.
Somehow I doubt it, he doesn't like MMOs and has already mentioned a hate of Atkinson.
 

KeyMaster45

Gone Gonzo
Jun 16, 2008
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Ok, I'm going to need a screw driver, a bottle of vodka, a few paper clips, a bra, a 1 way ticket to austrailia, and a roll of duct tape. Tis time we made a stand against jack thompson and his ilk. First Austrailia then the World!!!! AH HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
 

Seydaman

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Nov 21, 2008
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hmm... are they blocking servers? private servers exist for wow, you could easily pirate wow then play an Australian server, unless they blocked the pirate bay...
 

Seydaman

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Nov 21, 2008
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KeyMaster45 said:
Ok, I'm going to need a screw driver, a bottle of vodka, a few paper clips, a bra, a 1 way ticket to austrailia, and a roll of duct tape. Tis time we made a stand against jack thompson and his ilk. First Austrailia then the World!!!! AH HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
**signs up**, i have some swords and a gun
 

Donbett1974

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Jan 28, 2009
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Why does Australia government hate games or more accurate the Australian gamer. I shed a tear for my Australian brothers.
 

Ago Iterum

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Dec 31, 2007
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Jinx_Dragon said:
That is the forbidden fruit factor, as banning something pushes to underground where it suddenly becomes 'cool to do.'

Once we start telling teens they can't play computer games do you think the rate of teens playing games will really significantly decrease?
The forbidden fruid factor as you put it, was more established in primary school. The area of effect of these games being banned incorperates not just little kids who think it's the cool thing to do to be a rebel, but more mature teens and adults, too. You can't honestly say that the majority of older teens and adults are swayed by not being allowed to do things? I know from the experience of doing things like underage drinking, that not being allowed to do it was not an incentive at all, infact, quite the opposite. I did it for the fun of drinking, but all the effort of finding ways of getting the alcahol and such was too much, so I didn't bother most of the time. And not once did it cross my mind that it was 'cool' because it was illigal.

And as for the second point of yours that I quoted, it depends how much effort the law puts in to forbidding it. If consoles are banned from sale, and peoples consoles are taken away, then yes, obviously. If people are just told 'no you can't do that' and then there's rarely anything done about it, then it will decrease more slowly. Like internet piracy. It still goes on, and 90% of people I spoke to on the subject admitted they still do it, to whatever degree, but it's common enough for nobody to think they're cool for doing it.

For someone who scalded that other guy for 'generalising' and 'speaking on behalf of people' (which I don't believe he was), you're doing a pretty good job of it yourself.

And before you state that I'm generalising, I did my research, and asked around. All my statements were based on my experiences, and the experiences of friends.
 

n01d34

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Aug 16, 2008
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Samurai Goomba said:
Lord Krunk said:
Geez, this right-wing idiocy has gone too far now.

I'm going to have to conform and say 'Fuck The Government!' as well.

But it looks like it's only in NSW, so it's justified; we have had a terrible State Government for longer than I can remember. At least we don't have that Atkinson guy...

Oh yeah.
Can we really call this "right-wing?" I'm so-called "right-wing," and I HATE what's going on over in Australia with games. I mean, aren't Republicans the ones who want more freedom from Government involvement? Wouldn't that naturally extend to games? If a Republican would support the right for citizens to bear arms, wouldn't they also support the rights of adults to enjoy the forms of entertainment they choose?

This has always confused me. To be fair, most of the arbitrary "you are Democrat/Republican, you must support this stance" garbage gets me riled up, but I STILL don't see why ANY logical Conservative/Republican/Human Being/Democrat/Piece of Protoplasm (no, those weren't placed in any kind of sequential order on purpose) wouldn't support an adult's right to enjoy games manufactured for adults. It's the parent's responsibility to be aware of what their kids are doing-every adult in the country shouldn't have to suffer for that.

*ends ranting and raving*
Yeah calling it right-wing may be over simplifying things a tad. But still most ?think of the children? anti-videogame crusading is due to a kind of cultural conservatism which is a big part of modern right-wing ideology. But no not all censorship is inherently right-wing. If a game was banned because it degraded women or insulted racial groups it would most likely be due to left-wing interest groups.

As for this particular case please remember that Australia's current national government is centre left and the government of NSW is also centre left but the OFLC the ones in control of censorship are a bureaucratic organisation and as such fairly apolitical. So no this one probably can't be chalked up to a vast right-wing conspiracy. It can however be chalked up to inconsistent legislation and an over reaction by one Attorney General when said inconsistency was discovered. Once the OFLC gets the mess sorted and figures out how to rate online games all this will blow over.

In the meantime it is really really stupid and I hope they don't seriously try to prosecute any retail operators because this is not their fault.
 

colki

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Feb 11, 2009
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No, not actually banned:

http://www.kotaku.com.au/games/2009/02/blizzard_wow_is_sold_legally_in_australia_after_all.html
 

spookrabbit

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Feb 10, 2009
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just a clarification, saying fuck the government doesn't make you particularly left or right wing it makes you libertarian... that's well... down wing

yes libertarianism is similar to anarchism
 

Inverse Skies

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Feb 3, 2009
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colki said:
No, not actually banned:

http://www.kotaku.com.au/games/2009/02/blizzard_wow_is_sold_legally_in_australia_after_all.html
This article just highlights exactly how backwards and strange the current classification laws are. They were written for a time before the event of MMO's and other games which are played solely online, and therefore have little to no meaning in todays world of gaming.

Phew. This country I live in sure is strange sometimes. Good, but strange.