Used Games are simply another form of Piracy (THQ joins EA to stop the used games market)

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Maze1125

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Oct 14, 2008
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SakSak said:
Maze1125 said:
Because the right to sell a set of data comes with the intellectual property rights, and if you recognise that you haven't necessarily bought any part of them, then you can't assume you've bought the right to resell.
Yes I can, because it was the manufacturer who knowingly put the data within the media, and carted it of to the retailer, who then sold it to me, fully aware that I have the right to sell that media forward without making any changes (and indeed, prohibiting me from making any changes) to the data within the media.
But you don't automatically have that right.
They have been court cases about it and, every time, the courts have said it's okay to resell, but if you could have just assumed that from the fact they put the media out there, then such a case wouldn't have even been tried in the first place. If the publishers were silly enough to even bring the case to court then it would have been thrown out immediately.

Yes, you do have the right to resell games but, if you recognise the difference between the physical disc and the intellectual rights of the data, then you aren't justified in just assuming you'd have that right.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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If I own something, I can sell it. Simple as that. Anyone who disagrees can shove it.

I find it hard to believe that some of you are cuddling up to the publishers on this. Do you enjoy getting teabagged by the likes of EA?
 

Zacharine

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Apr 17, 2009
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Maze1125 said:
then you aren't justified in just assuming you'd have that right.
And yet I believe I do: implicit right was given by the manufacturer/producer, when they forbid me from touching that data, put it in a media that is legal to resell, and sell it to me via public retailers.

And since you seem to take this stance, does it also mean that you would not assume that you have the right to sell a car to a third person, after you've bought it from a car retailer, if that car has any hardware, or part containing hardware or software, that you do not own intellectual rights also to?

Such as a fully functional GPS system.

I'm honestly intrigued.
 

MrGFunk

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Oct 29, 2008
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Sneaklemming said:
This line of thought is prompted by EAs decision to add serial keys to their sports games to stop the reselling of games.

So it does beg the question about used games.
A person buying a used game is simply paying the price they think the game is worth. If the buyer saw a fresh copy of the game in a store at the reduced price they would buy it.


It's not a lost sale because the person would not pay more than they are willing.

This is simply games companies being greedy and wanting all the money.
Reduce the titles in line with second hand sales over time and this would not be an issue.
 

Dan B

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Mar 6, 2010
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I'll stop recycling (buying/selling) used games when the industry stops recycling and reskinning the same handful of games in an effort to squeeze more money out of me without doing any actual work.
Film industries spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year creating new characters and storylines and they very rarely take a series above 2 sequels, however i'm not even sure what edition of COD i play, is MW2 Cod 6 (cod 4, cod waw (5)) or is it 4.5? or possibly 5 since waw wasn't numbered?
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Sneaklemming said:
rokkolpo said:
someone already paid for said game.

they shouldn't care.
Every pirated game/sold used copy is a lost sale - apparently.

Except in the case of a used game that is more likely to be true, since used games dont tend to be much cheaper then new ones.

Shouldn't and don't are different - seen in EAs new measure to stop used copies being useful.
Well, not really true on this point at least. Buying a used game of a brandy new title probably only saves you $5. However if you buy one of last year's games, it can be signifigantly cheaper.

The industry is incorrect in that every used game sale is a lost sale, unless of course the game companies were lowering their prices to the used price levels at the same time.

Though technically it can be argued that when the company lowers the price, and releases say a $60 game for $30 as a "platinum edition" the used prices also drop to be between $5 and $10 cheaper, so by their nature the industry can't catch up with used games.

HOWEVER, there is still the false assumption on the part of the company that given the lack of a used option "Joe Gamer" would have, and willingly spend, that extra $5-$10 to get the game. It's the cheap price itself that makes the used deals attractive.

My basic arguement is that for every new game coming you, you typically have 2-3 people for everyone buying it that say "meh, I'll wait to get it used" and buy it for like $20-$25 a year to 18 months later. Gamers tend to be selective, buying only their favorite-seeming games for full price, and being less prone to taking "leaps of faith"... that's what you do with used games.

Indeed with all games going for the same, high, price being a consumer with games is very risky, especially seeing as developers keep their cards close to their chest until after release. Any gamer with experience will tell you that no matter how much hype there is, there is no way to tell if a game is any good until you try and play it. On a lot of levels game developers rely on "blind marketing", and the assumption that since noone laying out money knows when something is a cra@p product, they can always fix it later. Truthfully I sort of feel a lot of garbage games were known to be garbage when they were released, but were simply put out with good marketing.

Now if the Game industry was to say lower their price to $20-$25 a pop things would change. They might find people far more willing to take those risks in the initial sales. They won't ever get "a sale for every copy our statistics show was pirated" but would probably wind up with a lot less people waiting a year to get a game cheaply. However, loweing prices is not an option for the game industry.

I find it ironic that the industry apparently spends millions of dollars on developing "Special DLC", verification servers, and killer DRM, when they could just sacrifice the profits they spend on that R&D in terms of lower prices and probably meet with better results.
 

sunburst

Media Snob
Mar 19, 2010
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If a company wants to take advantage of the benefits of Capitalism, they have to accept every part of the system such as the secondhand market. Companies certainly have every right to encourage people to buy from them through methods such as EA is implementing. Creating an incentive towards purchasing new games is a great idea and I applaud EA for it, but they don't have any right to stop used sales altogether.
 

MetalDooley

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Feb 9, 2010
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Hopeless Bastard said:
MetalDooley said:
The ironic thing is that removing used game purchases would probably hurt the industry more.I'm sure there's millions of people worldwide who,like myself,use trade ins as a means of funding new game purchases.I know that if I couldn't resell old games then I would buy a lot less games
The ironic thing is you actually believe that.

Removing the aftermarket would allow sane pricing of video games.
And do you genuinely believe that publishers would drop prices in any significant way?Activision have already proved that you can charge more than the regular amount,and blatantly admit that you're going to do it,and millions of people will still buy your product
 

saejox

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Mar 4, 2009
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this argument will be pointless in 10 years. No one will be able to sell their games.
Digital Distribution
 

Kyouki1980

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May 26, 2008
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Hubilub said:
It's not another form of Piracy.

Second hand marketing has been around for ages, and nobody has complained about them before. We have all been OK with second hand stores for clothing, buying used Television sets, flea markets, the works. But now, because video game publishers say it's hurting the industry, it's suddenly wrong?

Fuck no, it's not wrong.

If I'm tired of something I own, something I either can't get enjoyment out of, or something if it's something I want to replace with something better, should I simply have to throw that thing away? Why can't I make a profit and sell it to someone else who needs it? Am I a bad person for helping someone acquire something they want for an even cheaper price than at the store? No, I'm not. I'm a good person for giving someone that opportunity.
I totally agree. Eventually it'll be another form of control by companies who want ever more money. I'm poor, almost all my games are second hand. Am I going to pay £40 for each game I want? FUCK NO! I wait months for the game to come down in price THEN I go looking for the cheapest possible second hand version there is. Why? Cause I cant afford the insane prices new release games are priced at. Its insane. I could eat for two or three weeks on teh cost of one new release game.
 

HK_01

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Jun 1, 2009
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So...buying a used TV is like stealing it?

Almost every industry could make the same argument, yet none of them do because they see that it's fucking stupid.

Edit: I see some people actually go with the industry on this. If I still had any faith in humanity, this thread would have made me lose it.
 

Mechanix

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Dec 12, 2009
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It absolutely blows my mind this is even an issue. Ever since I was a little kid with my N64 I would always buy used N64 games or maybe even sell the ones I had. What the hell is wrong with it? Does EA realize that almost every other commodity in existence is bought and sold regularly? Does that make every seller of something a pirate?

There is no reason EA is doing this other than to make more money. Not a single other reason.

Also, read the guy above me because he got it right.
 

jpoon

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Sonicron said:
Hubilub said:
It's not another form of Piracy.

Second hand marketing has been around for ages, and nobody has complained about them before. We have all been OK with second hand stores for clothing, buying used Television sets, flea markets, the works. But now, because video game publishers say it's hurting the industry, it's suddenly wrong?

Fuck no, it's not wrong.

If I'm tired of something I own, something I either can't get enjoyment out of, or something if it's something I want to replace with something better, should I simply have to throw that thing away? Why can't I make a profit and sell it to someone else who needs it? Am I a bad person for helping someone acquire something they want for an even cheaper price than at the store? No, I'm not. I'm a good person for giving someone that opportunity.
Nailed it on the head, Hub. And in my opinion, everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. Dead wrong.
Bingo, my thoughts exactly!
 

HK_01

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scobie said:
Oh, Jesus fucking Christ am I sick of this argument. I don't know why it's started appearing all of a sudden. I can guess the reasons behind it - developers and publishers want to squeeze more cash out of us - but I'm astonished that people are actually buying it. Let's make some things clear:

1) Used games are not the same as piracy. They are very obviously not the same. If I pirate a game, an unlimited number of people can have it for free. If I sell a used game, one person has it and I don't have it any more. If a third party wants to get that copy, they have to take it away from the person I sold it to. Don't try to tell me it's the same as piracy. It's just bullshit.

2) Used games are just like anything else being sold second hand. It's functionally identical. Yet no-one sees the need to complain or say I'm doing anything immoral if I buy anything else second-hand. It's an accepted part of life. There are charity shops in every village in this country where I can buy a second-hand dress for 50p, and yet somehow the global clothing industry has yet to collapse. The only reason we'd even consider this a problem for video games is because piracy has made us all so madly oversensitive.

3) Here we come to the crux of the matter. Used game sales are "taking money away from the industry". You know what? No, they aren't. Because it isn't their money to start with. It's my fucking money. I'm not taking any money away, I'm just not giving them money. The games industry does not own my money. They don't have any automatic right to it and it's not immoral to not give them some. If I decided to just keep my money in the bank, no-one is going to criticise me for taking money away from the games industry. But if I buy a second-hand game, I'm suddenly harming the industry? The Hell with that.

4) So if second-hand games didn't exist, the games industry would make more money. But we've already established that game developers don't have exclusive right to all the money on the planet. And that money has got to be coming from somewhere. Which means that right now, someone else is benefiting from people selling used games. You know who? Game shops. And you know who else? Me. Used games benefit the consumer. People get to make some money from a game they don't want any more, and someone else gets a cheap game. And isn't the whole point? We don't give games companies money because we love Bobby Kotick so much and want him to be able to buy a BMW. We give them money because they make games and we like games. We support games companies because it benefits us as consumers. And now people are proposing giving up this massive benefit to us in order to support game companies so they can benefit us? What kind of ass-backwards logic is that?

In case you're wondering why I'm getting so pissed off about this, it's only partly because I'm angry that people who have swallowed a transparently idiotic argument are looking down on me as immoral for doing nothing wrong. It's mainly because if enough people buy this, then the big games companies will have another way to squeeze us for yet more cash and place yet more unreasonable restrictions on our use of games. And better yet, they'll be able to do this while telling us that it's all for the greater good. So the next time some spokesman from EA tells you you shouldn't be buying used games, consider that he might be slightly biased.

Remember kids, home taping is killing music!
Awesome post, agree completely.
 

Sonicron

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Mar 11, 2009
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jpoon said:
Sonicron said:
Hubilub said:
It's not another form of Piracy.

Second hand marketing has been around for ages, and nobody has complained about them before. We have all been OK with second hand stores for clothing, buying used Television sets, flea markets, the works. But now, because video game publishers say it's hurting the industry, it's suddenly wrong?

Fuck no, it's not wrong.

If I'm tired of something I own, something I either can't get enjoyment out of, or something if it's something I want to replace with something better, should I simply have to throw that thing away? Why can't I make a profit and sell it to someone else who needs it? Am I a bad person for helping someone acquire something they want for an even cheaper price than at the store? No, I'm not. I'm a good person for giving someone that opportunity.
Nailed it on the head, Hub. And in my opinion, everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. Dead wrong.
Bingo, my thoughts exactly!
Heck, come to think of it... if it weren't for second hand marketing I'd never have been introduced to gaming. My dad bought me a used Gameboy when I was 7, and now, 16 years later, I'm still an avid gamer who has spent thousands of Marks and Euros on electronic entertainment products over the course of his life and will surely continue to do so.

So, EA, you tell me if second hand marketing is bad for the video game industry or not. Douchebags.