Vault101's guide to gender debates

[Vault101]

1) You are making a statement and then you are prohibiting discussion of that statement. Among other things why it shouldn't be discussed you state that people are not to be trusted. And you made statement with no intention to back it up with facts and we are suposed to trust you.

you don't trust me? *gasp*

I would be very curious if people could actually NOT do those things, like I said often they are brought up when they are irrelevant

[quote/]This whole point depends on you being unquestionable moral authority. Whole point is absolute failure of logic![/quote]
that's because I am...Jim Sterling aproved

[quote/]2) You are telling people to hold on their reactions if they are feeling insulted. Granted, that is a good advice, agitated people make bad statements. Irrational ones.

But this damn shit is propagated by persons that feel entitled to never feel offended. I think people who start this discussion on that base should take a look at mirror prior to opening their mouths. It bloody helps.[/quote]......wut? people do get offended....and people seem to be offended by the fact theyre offended


[quote/]3) There is no need for patronizing, you don't want to start alienating audience with core rules (although first rule does that much more effectively) but I can agree with with if for the most parts.[/quote]
there comes a point where if you avoid alienating people you'd have to rearrange everything you say or change it outright



[quote/]Mona Lisa was and still is commissioned portrait, purest form of commercial product.[/quote]
perhaps I should have been more clear

commercial viability and good art are not mutually exclusive...that period of art was very commercial. Its when you water things down and stop risk taking that it becomes an issue

compare the box office performance of The expendables 3, TMNT and Gaurdians of the Galaxy....expendibles 3 a sequel of an already pandering franchise got smashed by gaurdians, TMNT an apparently bad adaptation of that long running money maker did make money but didn't stick

Gaurdians won out...and as far as Hollywood goes was a "risky" venture (in the loosest sense of the term) bow that's not always going to be the case but deviating from what the graphs say doesn't always hurt either

I can't remember who said it but I once heard "audiences don't know what they want until you sell it to them" which I think is partly truthful....nobody asked for a talking racoon, but a talking racoon they got


[quote/]4) I know what feminism stands for. I know by what feminism did when once it obtained influence and power. It's you and others who keep reciting dictionary definitions while refusing to look at real world who don't know feminism. And this point can not be driven far enough. [/quote]
feminism stands for equality between men and woman

but have you looked beyond that? have you actually read any feminist books/blogs/articles? I'm not saying you have to go get a degree in woman's study's but I am saying examining the "why and how" beyond the most simple definition is helpful

 

[CymbaIine]

4) I know what feminism stands for. I know by what feminism did when once it obtained influence and power. It's you and others who keep reciting dictionary definitions while refusing to look at real world who don't know feminism. And this point can not be driven far enough.

Like womens suffrage? Contraceptive rights? Domestic violence laws?

 

[Trunkage]

Pinkamenas guide to internet gender debates: Stay the fuck out of them. 100% success rate.

Doesn't this now mean success denied for you?

 

[carnex]

Predominant aggressor policies
Domestic violence/abuse lies used to propagate Domestic Abuse shelter BS gender policies
Dear Colleague Letter

there are three, but i don-t want for people to get lazy, there are plenty more out there if you are willing to look.

I will tell you what's disheartening.
Telling same things and giving same proofs to same people over and over and over.

 

[Vault101]

Predominant aggressor policies
Domestic violence/abuse lies used to propagate Domestic Abuse shelter BS gender policies
Dear Colleague Letter

there are three, but i don-t want for people to get lazy, there are plenty more out there if you are willing to look.

I will tell you what's disheartening.
Telling same things and giving same proofs to same people over and over and over.

did you conveniently forget to how to quote? or maybe that was just an extra afterthought, I take it those are incidences where "feminism" has been bad?

 

[carnex]

feminism stands for equality between men and woman

I just can't resist this one since it's so bloody relevant to prove how irrelevant definitions are

NSDAP stood for right of German people to stand equal to other European nations. Right out of their chapter.

 

[carnex]

did you conveniently forget to how to quote? or maybe that was just an extra afterthought, I take it those are incidences where "feminism" has been bad?

Since feminist managed to establish themselves as power player in world of politics they have done more bad than good. And predominantly good for females and bad for males although quite a bit of bad overflew onto women. Look up Erin Pizzey, woman who started domestic abuse shelters and her experience with feminists as well as results of her investigations of how domestic abuse shelters operate now.

 

[Vault101]

I just can't resist this one since it's so bloody relevant to prove how irrelevant definitions are

NSDAP stood for right of German people to stand equal to other European nations. Right out of their chapter.

[sub/]oohhhh lord[/sub]


I don't know much about the Nazi party's polices but I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, I don't think Germany as a whole was more "oppressed" than other nations or that the Nazi party specifically marketed themselves as "we deserve the same rights as other nations" I would have thought it was more "Germany is awesome and here are our social and economic polices!"

or more to the point false equivalency

 

[Vault101]

Since feminist managed to establish themselves as power player in world of politics they have done more bad than good. And predominantly good for females and bad for males although quite a bit of bad overflew onto women. Look up Erin Pizzey, woman who started domestic abuse shelters and her experience with feminists as well as results of her investigations of how domestic abuse shelters operate now.

[sub/]ohh lordy indeed[/sub]

ok this is getting political, so I'm just gonna say as far as Feminism goes I don't particularly agree with that assessment (or the assessment of who holds how much power)

the "Feminism" thing in the context of this discussion is basically not to throw that term around and use it as a label to "other" and put viewpoints in neat boxes

I haven't called anyone else MRA's because I feel whatever MRA may or may not mean is irrelevant

 

[Vault101]

Is that the plural of men?

I belive she'd refering to the Menstrual cycle

as in THE BLOODY MARK OF THE SHE WOLF FULL MOON

erm....I mean what the reproductive cycle does...

 

[carnex]

I just can't resist this one since it's so bloody relevant to prove how irrelevant definitions are

NSDAP stood for right of German people to stand equal to other European nations. Right out of their chapter.

[sub/]oohhhh lord[/sub]


I don't know much about the Nazi party's polices but I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, I don't think Germany as a whole was more "oppressed" than other nations or that the Nazi party specifically marketed themselves as "we deserve the same rights as other nations" I would have thought it was more "Germany is awesome and here are our social and economic polices!"

or more to the point false equivalency

Did you read my first sentence. I said "I'm making a point to show how definitions can be irrelevant". Perhaps i should have stated "compared to real world events"

It is not false equivalence when in both cases definition of organization and it's actions are quite frankly opposed to each other.

 

[CymbaIine]

Predominant aggressor policies
Domestic violence/abuse lies used to propagate Domestic Abuse shelter BS gender policies
Dear Colleague Letter

there are three, but i don-t want for people to get lazy, there are plenty more out there if you are willing to look.

I will tell you what's disheartening.
Telling same things and giving same proofs to same people over and over and over.

You're right, those three things that I have never heard of that are happening in a country I have never been to completely outweigh my right to vote and choose when I have a baby.

 

[giles]

Well, that certainly was... rambling.

Sometimes I look at these threads and see if they either fall under "Well I didn't read anything but here's my side of the debate I made a topic so it stands out" or "Here's why my opinion is superior to one or both sides of the debate".

Yours is the first I replied to because I don't even know what you're on about. Something about Eminem and Mass Effect 3?

captcha: learn. challenge. improve.
Err..wat?

 

[Vault101]

But what if there's two of them? Menses that is. Oh. Now I'm thinking about gollum. Doing a period.

that would make her the dreaded double vagina-hydra

she can only be conquered by a strong man with piercing blue eyes and rippling muscles

It is not false equivalence when in both cases definition of organization and it's actions are quite frankly opposed to each other.

this is a point of contention I don't believe I have the patience or disposition to dive into

You're right, those three things that I have never heard of that are happening in a country I have never been to completely outweigh my right to vote and choose when I have a baby.

hmmm...do you suppose this could count as a "what about the menz?"

 

[carnex]

Predominant aggressor policies
Domestic violence/abuse lies used to propagate Domestic Abuse shelter BS gender policies
Dear Colleague Letter

there are three, but i don-t want for people to get lazy, there are plenty more out there if you are willing to look.

I will tell you what's disheartening.
Telling same things and giving same proofs to same people over and over and over.

You're right, those three things that I have never heard of that are happening in a country I have never been to completely outweigh my right to vote and choose when I have a baby.

That is nothing but attempt at deflection. Actually I have at least a dozen jokes on that topic in my head begging to leap out but in interest of civil discussion i will sum it up like this.

You need better argument. Feminists did a fair job at promoting contraceptive pills. And I'm going to lay it at rest there simply not to open another can of worms that is under there.

But it says nothing about their actions that I have major problems with that started in late eighties and keeps happening.

Since feminist managed to establish themselves as power player in world of politics they have done more bad than good. And predominantly good for females and bad for males although quite a bit of bad overflew onto women. Look up Erin Pizzey, woman who started domestic abuse shelters and her experience with feminists as well as results of her investigations of how domestic abuse shelters operate now.

[sub/]ohh lordy indeed[/sub]

ok this is getting political, so I'm just gonna say as far as Feminism goes I don't particularly agree with that assessment (or the assessment of who holds how much power)

the "Feminism" thing in the context of this discussion is basically not to throw that term around and use it as a label to "other" and put viewpoints in neat boxes

I haven't called anyone else MRA's because I feel whatever MRA may or may not mean is irrelevant

This is exactly why I try to address actions of feminists as a group as actions of "feminist movement" because I know plenty of people who self identify as feminists and are not supportive of those actions or can absorb data presented and actually see where their movement misrepresent things.

I could do the same for people who self identify as MRA, and I do but there are no MRA people here as far as I know. Also MRA movement doesn't yet have political power so they are benign even if quite a few of them are seven shades of crazy.

 

[CymbaIine]

hmmm...do you suppose this could count as a "what about the menz?"

I don't actually know what that means but I hope not.

 

[Jesterscup]

That is nothing but attempt at deflection. Actually I have at least a dozen jokes on that topic in my head begging to leap out but in interest of civil discussion i will sum it up like this.

You need better argument. Feminists did a fair job at promoting contraceptive pills. And I'm going to lay it at rest there simply not to open another can of worms that is under there.

But it says nothing about their actions that I have major problems with that started in late eighties and keeps happening.

So yeah, there is clearly an issue here and ( parts of ) the feminist movement are not doing themselves any favours. But thats often the case with these sorts of things, and does not mean that we can ignore the whole issue ( range of issues ) because some people are going to far, or hold discriminatory viewpoints themselves.

So ok lets try to move away from using the terms 'feminist' and 'feminist movement/agenda' when talking about sexual equality/discrimination and gender politics, partly because there is a much wider discussion that should be going on thats ignored.

Simply put, I get what your saying, but it's a tricky tight-rope to walk, fall off either side and the wolves will get you. you've got issues with "the movement" ( so do I in fact, but I'm not going there ) but y'know baby & bath-water and all that jazz.

--------------------

she can only be conquered by a strong man with piercing blue eyes and rippling muscles

"I've been making a man , with Blonde hair, and a tan. He's good for relieving my tension......"