Vault101's guide to gender debates

[gargantual]

*looks at title*

BHWAAHAAHAAHAAHAAAAA!!!

Dawww. Well Isn't that just cute.

tl;dr. Arguing on Vault101's terms.

I think we've got the gist a few hundred or so threads earlier. Have a good one. *chuckle*

 

[zen5887]

Snip

I think it's worrying and almost a little dangerous to say stuff like "this issue is more important so lets ignore this other issue". Issues are issues because they are things that need to be talked about and addressed, and ranking them in order of severity seems kind of cruel. I don't think we should dismiss somebodies experiences with something like sexism or homophobia just because they might not be as bad as racism. Arguing about which issue of social justice is more important is such a catastrophic waste of energy and it's feels cheap to imply that somebody can't care about both.

Having said that, I would love to see more discussion about racism in gaming. Abolishing casual racism in the player base, breaking down racial stereotypes, seeking better representation are all noble pursuit for sure!. And perhaps its a shame that talking about this stuff isn't "on trend" at the moment, but that doesn't mean people are ignoring it or don't want it. After all, a lot of complaints about current AAA trends is how bland the protagonists are because they are mostly straight white dudes.

 

[Vault101]

You mean labels like "misogynist", "basement-dweller", "nerd", "sexist" and so on?

I generally don't use those terms, or use them seriously to group people and I know a number of people here don't use them in that way

[quote/]Labels which are not only accepted but actively promoted by the leading lights in [b/]the gaming SJW movement.[/b][/quote]
see, right there...youre doing it

[spoiler/][/spoiler]

[quote/]So apparently labels which denigrate men are okay, but labels which denigrate women, transsexuals, gay people and shitty journalists are not.[/quote]
So apparently you just kinda jumped on the logic train there....like I said...no

[sub/]and generally theres very little justification for homophobic and transphobic slurs[/sub]

[quote/]*sigh* It's really fucking tiresome dealing with the [b/]ignorant SJW ravings[/b][/quote]

agaaaaaaain....

[spoiler/][/spoiler]


[quote/]of those virgins who think getting laid involves sacrificing your manhood by prostrating yourself before the imaginary altar of women's collective ego.[/quote]
I...um....

no, a guy arguing from a certain point of veiw is not..whatever you just said, same way a white person ackowledging the issues black people face is not them hating their own race

we don't get put on "sides" we choose "sides"

you get a buzzer just for the rediculous Machismo BS of it all

[spoiler/][/spoiler]

] Any time you insist that a particular political stance should be accepted as truth without supplying evidence or a reasoned argument to support it, you're basically acting like you're the voice of God here to supply the truth to us mortals.

I am the voice of god...remember? ask Jim

 

[Vault101]

"Agree with me or shut up" is a horrible idea for conversation, but it's great for creating an echo chamber. One could argue that the OP only says "stfu unless you've got something valid to talk about", but let's face it, people on the internet have a habit of dismissing anything they don't agree with as "not a valid argument, you're just upset because reasons". Aka "agree with me or shut up".

Its not so much "shut up" but have people back track and actually ask themselves [i/]why[/i] they bring up the point sthey do...better yet make it a challenge...

 

[zen5887]

Any time you insist that a particular political stance should be accepted as truth without supplying evidence or a reasoned argument to support it, you're basically acting like you're the voice of God here to supply the truth to us mortals.

Most people would find that an act of colossal arrogance committed by someone burdened by an astonishing level of hubris. Yet this is exactly the kind of attitude which typifies the SJW crowd.

Amazing.

So, just to recap, you don't think there is an issue with female representation in videogames? You think the way women are represented in a large percentage of the AAA industry is a-okay?

[
Wait, you get to choose when you have a baby? I sure as shit don't. In fact, when it comes to children, I get absolutely no fucking choice at all.

I mean, you kind of do though, right? Contraception is a thing. Talking to your partner about having a child is also a pretty big deal. Plus, if the woman is carrying around a child for 9 months I think she deserves a few more rights than you or I.

If you're trying to argue that men are worse off when it comes to sex and reproduction rights you're fighting an uphill battle. How many times does a dude bail on his partner once she becomes pregnant? Probably a lot more often than a woman impregnating herself after oral sex.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Thank god people know their history around here. Anyone who's done at least a basic amount of research into WWI will know Germany got fairly fucked over by all the other nations after the war simply because they lost. The Treaty of Versailles basically said "blame Germany for everything bad that happened in WWI" by forcing them to foot the bill for the costs of WWI from every nation that participated (despite their economy already doing fairly shit due to the last stages of the war being an incredible drain on them) but it also completely neutered them in terms of being a world power like they were before. The treaty nearly completely collapsed Germany's economy at the time due to the amount of reparations they were being forced to pay which in turn caused rampant hyperinflation. Keep in mind, this was the time where it cost a wheelbarrow full of German currency just to buy a loaf of bread. To say the German's weren't oppressed at the time is an understatement to say the least.

Well...not to mention the sanctions continued after WW1 to keep Germany starved into weakness. Then the flu outbreak.

However, Germany was pulling itself back together in time to be kicked apart by the great Depression, and again after that.

By the time the Nazis had gotten into power, they'd gotten past the worst of it.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

SnipSnap

What the actual HELL VAULT!?

This was the most hateful, condescending, irrational bit of self-flatulation masquerading as tripe that I've ever seen put to pixels. I can't believe, for EVEN a SECOND that you would do something like this in the current atmosphere. I find ZERO levity in your horrific generalizations as well as your outright denial of pervasive issues and valid alternative view points.

FURTHERMORE, I-

Oh.

...Sail Away, sail away, sail awaaaaay.

 

[Jack Action]

Its not so much "shut up" but have people back track and actually ask themselves [i/]why[/i] they bring up the point sthey do...better yet make it a challenge...

Ever ask yourself why you make the arguments you do in response?

My amazing psychic powers tell me to expect "yes, and it's because I want equality for everyone".


PS: sorry for putting words in your mouth with that second line.

 

[CymbaIine]

Predominant aggressor policies
Domestic violence/abuse lies used to propagate Domestic Abuse shelter BS gender policies
Dear Colleague Letter

there are three, but i don-t want for people to get lazy, there are plenty more out there if you are willing to look.

I will tell you what's disheartening.
Telling same things and giving same proofs to same people over and over and over.

You're right, those three things that I have never heard of that are happening in a country I have never been to completely outweigh my right to vote and choose when I have a baby.

You've never been to America, the UK, Europe, Australia or New Zealand? Wow.

Wait, you get to choose when you have a baby? I sure as shit don't. In fact, when it comes to children, I get absolutely no fucking choice at all.

Let's recap:

* If I have sex with a woman and she becomes pregnant, she can kill my child, adopt it out or legally abandon it. I, however, have no choice. I *have* to pay for that child because vagina.

* This applies even if a woman gave me oral sex and then later impregnates herself without my consent.

* This also applies if I'm a 14 year old boy who has sex with a woman in her 20's - thus making her guilty of statutory rape. It turns out my rapist can sue me for child support and win - because vagina.

* If she abandons the child because... well... vagina privilege... I still have to pay for it. If I WANT the child, I get no say in it until she abandons it first. Because vagina.

Yeah, all those terrible reproductive restrictions women have are just fucking awful.

The irony here is in your attempts to prove how evil feminism is you have just demonstrated more efficiently than I can why we need it.

So cheers for that!

 

[Something Amyss]

[b/]vault you post has made me angry![/b]
take the following steps

1.go to youtube
2. look up "sail away by enya"
3. sail away

*closes bunker door*

Joke's on you, Enya always makes me angry!

I'm surprised you didn't get more into "dictating how women feel on the issue," which I suppose falls under your first volley of dismissive examples.

 

[Trunkage]

I just can't resist this one since it's so bloody relevant to prove how irrelevant definitions are

NSDAP stood for right of German people to stand equal to other European nations. Right out of their chapter.

[sub/]oohhhh lord[/sub]


I don't know much about the Nazi party's polices but I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, I don't think Germany as a whole was more "oppressed" than other nations or that the Nazi party specifically marketed themselves as "we deserve the same rights as other nations" I would have thought it was more "Germany is awesome and here are our social and economic polices!"

or more to the point false equivalency

Did you read my first sentence. I said "I'm making a point to show how definitions can be irrelevant". Perhaps i should have stated "compared to real world events"

It is not false equivalence when in both cases definition of organization and it's actions are quite frankly opposed to each other.

That's a hell of a leap and ignores contemporary history. Yeah, Nazis wanted Germany to have its own power and rights, as did pretty much all German citizens which is why they got into power. In case you've forgotten, the reason for this was that Germany was pretty much Europe's economic dumping ground after WW1, lacking any form of real self-control after having their resources stripped and a huge part of their able-bodied population killed off whilst the rest of Europe just tutted and looked sternly over their reading glasses saying "well you shouldn't have been so naughty then." Anyone who's studied even a little history of the era can tell you that the Nazis were very good for Germany to start with. Hell, they were one of the few political parties in history to actually make good on their campaign promises. I think it's fair to say that what made the Nazis bad wasn't the "let's make Germany not a turd" so much as the "let's kill all the Jews and invade all our neighbours."
So yeah, to circle back to your comparison of labels and definitions, the Nazis did exactly what they said they stood for. They just did a bunch of other bad stuff too which we all took issue with.

Thank god people know their history around here. Anyone who's done at least a basic amount of research into WWI will know Germany got fairly fucked over by all the other nations after the war simply because they lost. The Treaty of Versailles basically said "blame Germany for everything bad that happened in WWI" by forcing them to foot the bill for the costs of WWI from every nation that participated (despite their economy already doing fairly shit due to the last stages of the war being an incredible drain on them) but it also completely neutered them in terms of being a world power like they were before. The treaty nearly completely collapsed Germany's economy at the time due to the amount of reparations they were being forced to pay which in turn caused rampant hyperinflation. Keep in mind, this was the time where it cost a wheelbarrow full of German currency just to buy a loaf of bread. To say the German's weren't oppressed at the time is an understatement to say the least.

You also forgot to add in the attitude before WWI. You had global empires that sucked resources from poorer countries but Germany was not allowed to expand because it had been only around for 40 years. Even the Dutch still had a globe spanning empire. Then those same empire charged an insane premium for those resources. Which was perpetuated after the war (and the reason empires slowly disbanded after WWII).

Then you also need to go back further to the Prussian Electors as they went wildly (between generations) from calm thought to hyper masculinity. Everything was made efficient starting with the schooling system (the talk of the world in the 1800). All because of Napoleon, Germanic state bickering, international shifting alliance seeming daily and possibly way back to how the Germanic states were treated during the 100 year war - city of thousands would literally vanish overnight by the international armies crisscrossing Germanic lands instead of fighting the war in their won countries. Without natural borders, Germany made its efficient especially the army.

But once you start getting to the 1400s and how a society's masculinity and efficiency was defined, you need to turn to the "Muslim nation" at the time and their loss at Vienna. I don't know how Ottomans/ Turkey got out of Versailles seeming without the impact that Germany had.

 

[Vault101]

Ever ask yourself why you make the arguments you do in response?

My amazing psychic powers tell me to expect "yes, and it's because I want equality for everyone".

PS: sorry for putting words in your mouth with that second line.

well its a little more complex than that its more about being honest

going back to my Eminem example if I honestly thought the guys schtick was purely an act and not the result of a troubled background then I would say so...but I honestly don't, I don't think I could give him the benefit of the doubt if I wanted to

some people (being rabid fans) would becomew hostile if you in anyway acused Eminem of being sexist

and if you asked me say a couple of years ago I would have defended Mass Effect to the death

I'm not saying I'm completly objective or perfect or whatever (only Jim is perfect) and I'll admit this whole gender thing IS my one rage button, I'm just saying people jump on the defensive when theres really no need

This was the most hateful, condescending, irrational bit of self-flatulation masquerading as tripe that I've ever seen put to pixels. I can't believe, for EVEN a SECOND that you would do something like this in the current atmosphere. I find ZERO levity in your horrific generalizations as well as your outright denial of pervasive issues and valid alternative view points.

Spoiler: oh stop it you!

[img/]http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/galv5Il.gif[/img]

 

[CymbaIine]

Predominant aggressor policies
Domestic violence/abuse lies used to propagate Domestic Abuse shelter BS gender policies
Dear Colleague Letter

there are three, but i don-t want for people to get lazy, there are plenty more out there if you are willing to look.

I will tell you what's disheartening.
Telling same things and giving same proofs to same people over and over and over.

You're right, those three things that I have never heard of that are happening in a country I have never been to completely outweigh my right to vote and choose when I have a baby.

You've never been to America, the UK, Europe, Australia or New Zealand? Wow.

Wait, you get to choose when you have a baby? I sure as shit don't. In fact, when it comes to children, I get absolutely no fucking choice at all.

Let's recap:

* If I have sex with a woman and she becomes pregnant, she can kill my child, adopt it out or legally abandon it. I, however, have no choice. I *have* to pay for that child because vagina.

* This applies even if a woman gave me oral sex and then later impregnates herself without my consent.

* This also applies if I'm a 14 year old boy who has sex with a woman in her 20's - thus making her guilty of statutory rape. It turns out my rapist can sue me for child support and win - because vagina.

* If she abandons the child because... well... vagina privilege... I still have to pay for it. If I WANT the child, I get no say in it until she abandons it first. Because vagina.

Yeah, all those terrible reproductive restrictions women have are just fucking awful.

The irony here is in your attempts to prove how evil feminism is you have just demonstrated more efficiently than I can why we need it.

So cheers for that!

Ah yes, I'm assuming this is the old "These things are symptoms of the patriarchy even though they only benefit women!" thing I hear purported every now and again. If I recall, a lot of these precedents were instituted by feminists in the first place. Also, I don't think he was trying to prove that feminism is evil or anything (notice he never says anything even close to that). I would assume he's simply trying to show that feminism isn't exactly immune from criticism and can be wrong in some regards.

I don't think he is trying to show that, or maybe he is and he is just super bad at it. I don't really know what your first part means so I can't really comment, what precedents?

Either way it's riddled with inaccuracies, hysteria and exceptionalism and really can't be arsed arguing with them as it's clear it will get me no where. I can just be happy knowing that we do have feminism and it's alive and strong.

 

[Vault101]

I'm surprised you didn't get more into "dictating how women feel on the issue," which I suppose falls under your first volley of dismissive examples.

implying that peoples experiences affect the weight of their opinions is stickyer ground than I'd care to tread...

snip

.snip

hey you two!