Vault101's guide to gender debates

[ShenCS]

I just can't resist this one since it's so bloody relevant to prove how irrelevant definitions are

NSDAP stood for right of German people to stand equal to other European nations. Right out of their chapter.

[sub/]oohhhh lord[/sub]


I don't know much about the Nazi party's polices but I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, I don't think Germany as a whole was more "oppressed" than other nations or that the Nazi party specifically marketed themselves as "we deserve the same rights as other nations" I would have thought it was more "Germany is awesome and here are our social and economic polices!"

or more to the point false equivalency

Did you read my first sentence. I said "I'm making a point to show how definitions can be irrelevant". Perhaps i should have stated "compared to real world events"

It is not false equivalence when in both cases definition of organization and it's actions are quite frankly opposed to each other.

That's a hell of a leap and ignores contemporary history. Yeah, Nazis wanted Germany to have its own power and rights, as did pretty much all German citizens which is why they got into power. In case you've forgotten, the reason for this was that Germany was pretty much Europe's economic dumping ground after WW1, lacking any form of real self-control after having their resources stripped and a huge part of their able-bodied population killed off whilst the rest of Europe just tutted and looked sternly over their reading glasses saying "well you shouldn't have been so naughty then." Anyone who's studied even a little history of the era can tell you that the Nazis were very good for Germany to start with. Hell, they were one of the few political parties in history to actually make good on their campaign promises. I think it's fair to say that what made the Nazis bad wasn't the "let's make Germany not a turd" so much as the "let's kill all the Jews and invade all our neighbours."
So yeah, to circle back to your comparison of labels and definitions, the Nazis did exactly what they said they stood for. They just did a bunch of other bad stuff too which we all took issue with.

 

[SNCommand]

I think it's funny as you mention that there exists people who believe in a conspiracy to take gaming away from men, while at the same time there are people who believe there exists a conspiracy that is trying to keep women away from games

I think it's simply publishers wanting to see if there's a market, people need to be willing to drop money towards products they think there should be more of, as of now the largest products out there are Call of Duty, Halo, GTA V, and now likely also Destiny, publishers are probably taking notes that out of that list only one of them allowed a female player character in singleplayer

As for the term SJW, I think there's absolutely a usage for the term, if someone actively campaigns to end a thousand years of justice rights by asking courts to turn rape cases into one where the defendant has to prove innocence instead of the accuser having to prove guilt, then you're a SJW along with a whole other plethora of degrading terms, if someone is simply asking for more female player characters I don't think a person is a SJW, but I think many have to realize they can't mandate publishers to create a 50/50 gender split

 

[V da Mighty Taco]

Sorry Vault, but I'm gonna have to call you out on this one. Your entire OP is just straight-up condescending, focusing way more on making fun of and ridiculing the people you are protesting rather than actively trying to make this discussion all-around less toxic. Now, I'm not denying that these people exist, but what you are doing here really isn't any better than what you're condemning. We need to create less hostility in these debates, not add to it, and posts like yours are only going to make things worse.

Also, Eminem is awesome.

 

[San Martin]

hmmm...do you suppose this could count as a "what about the menz?"

You joke, but WHAT ABOUT THE MEN? You can be as smug as you like, but the fact is that men are now oppressed thanks to feminism.

As a man, I'll probably never be able to get a job because of gender quotas; if I break up with my girlfriend then I'll have to pay her alimony forever EVEN THOUGH WE DON'T HAVE CHILDREN; and nowadays, what with feminazis changing the law and controlling the government, if I got with a female at a party by plying her with excessive quantities of alcohol until she can barely walk, which is the normal way of hooking up, then apparently I'd be a rapist!

So shut up "Vault101": you feminists don't know how much you've fucked men over.

OT: I liked your post. We should be friends. Wanna go to a Prince concert with me? On the moon.

 

[13e thr33]

This argument seems to go no where in my head at least.

- = assertion
. = effect

Opinion one:
-More female representation in games without harming story or creating token characters.
.Then nothing can be forced or changed directly, it must happen naturally and the argument is void.

Opinion two:
-More female representation no matter the cost.
.Gaming industry will suffer.

But to stay on track, why do people on one side of the fence need a guide to arguing? That's extremely jaded and biased, although you are human so that's understandable.

Aiming a "play fair" guide at one side only invites hate to your doorstep, and even if it is just one side causing a ruckus, does this in anyway seem like the way to calm them down?

Your just posting out of passion which is not a good thing.

 

[wulf3n]

the Nazis did exactly what they said they stood for. They just did a bunch of other bad stuff too which we all took issue with.

I believe that was the point Carnex was trying to make.

 

[Trunkage]

hmmm...do you suppose this could count as a "what about the menz?"

You joke, but WHAT ABOUT THE MEN? You can be as smug as you like, but the fact is that men are now oppressed thanks to feminism.

As a man, I'll probably never be able to get a job because of gender quotas; if I break up with my girlfriend then I'll have to pay her alimony forever EVEN THOUGH WE DON'T HAVE CHILDREN; and nowadays, what with feminazis changing the law and controlling the government, if I got with a female at a party by plying her with excessive quantities of alcohol until she can barely walk, which is the normal way of hooking up, then apparently I'd be a rapist!

So shut up "Vault101": you feminists don't know how much you've fucked men over.

OT: I liked your post. We should be friends. Wanna go to a Prince concert with me? On the moon.

Clearly the solution here is just date a man. The law won't recognise you then

 

[Cronenberg1]

hmmm...do you suppose this could count as a "what about the menz?"

You joke, but WHAT ABOUT THE MEN? You can be as smug as you like, but the fact is that men are now oppressed thanks to feminism.

As a man, I'll probably never be able to get a job because of gender quotas; if I break up with my girlfriend then I'll have to pay her alimony forever EVEN THOUGH WE DON'T HAVE CHILDREN; and nowadays, what with feminazis changing the law and controlling the government, if I got with a female at a party by plying her with excessive quantities of alcohol until she can barely walk, which is the normal way of hooking up, then apparently I'd be a rapist!

So shut up "Vault101": you feminists don't know how much you've fucked men over.

OT: I liked your post. We should be friends. Wanna go to a Prince concert with me? On the moon.

Damn that was good. I couldn't even tell you were joking until the alcohol bit. 10/10 I legitimately thought you were an asshole for a second.

 

[Vault101]

I think it's simply publishers wanting to see if there's a market, people need to be willing to drop money towards products they think there should be more of, as of now the largest products out there are Call of Duty, Halo, GTA V, and now likely also Destiny, publishers are probably taking notes that out of that list only one of them allowed a female player character in singleplayer

this is still kind of a circle logic thing..the publishers greenlit those projects in the first place

I don't think its a conspiracy, that would imply its a secret, publishers aren't as willing to "risk" a property with a female lead due to market concerns...now weather or not those concerns are vailid...a slightly different thing

I'll say this though I feel like games were more diverse in the past than they are now, I think because financially theres more rising on them than ever

 

[SNCommand]

I'll say this though I feel like games were more diverse in the past than they are now, I think because financially theres more rising on them than ever

I wouldn't say that, there was a time when the only widely acclaimed female main character in games was Samus, it's no 50/50 split in representation, but I do think the variety you can choose in this day and age is quite good, it especially helps that you can customize your character to your liking in RPGs, just a few minutes ago I was playing as a female bounty hunter in Old Republic, and I can't wait for Dragon Age Inqusition to release so that I can play as a female Qunari Rift Mage, gonna be awesome to play as a 7 feet tall and horned mage

 

[Thaluikhain]

You joke, but WHAT ABOUT THE MEN? You can be as smug as you like, but the fact is that men are now oppressed thanks to feminism.

As a man, I'll probably never be able to get a job because of gender quotas; if I break up with my girlfriend then I'll have to pay her alimony forever EVEN THOUGH WE DON'T HAVE CHILDREN; and nowadays, what with feminazis changing the law and controlling the government, if I got with a female at a party by plying her with excessive quantities of alcohol until she can barely walk, which is the normal way of hooking up, then apparently I'd be a rapist!

...

Yeah, I really believed you there for a bit.

 

[Zhukov]

hmmm...do you suppose this could count as a "what about the menz?"

You joke, but WHAT ABOUT THE MEN? You can be as smug as you like, but the fact is that men are now oppressed thanks to feminism.

As a man, I'll probably never be able to get a job because of gender quotas; if I break up with my girlfriend then I'll have to pay her alimony forever EVEN THOUGH WE DON'T HAVE CHILDREN; and nowadays, what with feminazis changing the law and controlling the government, if I got with a female at a party by plying her with excessive quantities of alcohol until she can barely walk, which is the normal way of hooking up, then apparently I'd be a rapist!

So shut up "Vault101": you feminists don't know how much you've fucked men over.

OT: I liked your post. We should be friends. Wanna go to a Prince concert with me? On the moon.

+1 for the thought-you-were-being-serious-for-a-second-there list.

That OT note saved me from saying something embarrassing.

 

[zen5887]

Sorry Vault, but I'm gonna have to call you out on this one. Your entire OP is just straight-up condescending, focusing way more on making fun of and ridiculing the people you are protesting rather than actively trying to make this discussion all-around less toxic.

Good.

In the end, neither side is going to listen to one another so all there is left to do is be as condescending as possible. At least that way we might get a laugh out of it.

Great post, Vault. I would love a subscription to your magazine.

 

[Ramsey]

I'm somewhat utilitarian in philosophy so I like to look at what benefits the most people. So, when I look at feminist arguments, I'm always a bit baffled.

For example, there's a lot of talk about a Spiderwoman cover which in context isn't sexist at all, especially relative to the comic industry. I mean, if you're going to argue about sexism in comics, can't you find a better target?

To get more on the subject, when I hear people complaining about sexism in videogames, I wonder why they don't spend their time discussing racism which is far worse an issue in videogames.

For example the following three links:

http://www.polygon.com/2014/3/22/5536966/study-suggests-playing-as-a-black-character-can-reinforce-racist

http://www.shoutoutuk.org/2014/06/13/the-consequences-of-anti-arab-attitudes-in-western-video-games/

http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2014/02/24/missing-polygons-asians-race-and-video-games/

Each show issues that seem much more harmful then sexism. While the attitudes towards women might lead to getting less money, being treated as weaker and other negative things the consequences of the racist trends seem more severe. They can lead to unemployment, police harassment, violent beatings and many other negative effects.

Somehow I can't help but think that games that feature women with big breasts and slutty attitudes isn't as bad as "black people are drugs dealers and Arabs are terrorists"

It leads me to the depressing conclusion that people spend so much time talking about sexism not because it would bring the most good, but rather it would bring the most good to them (because most are female). If someone would could explain why women in skimpy outfits is more harmful than telling people that certain ethnicities are "the other" and are therefore the enemies I would be most obliged.

tl;dr: Curious why the emphasis is on feminism while racism seems much worse.

 

[Thaluikhain]

tl;dr: Curious why the emphasis is on feminism while racism seems much worse.

"Why talk about X when Y is more important"?

Something being a problem doesn't invalidate the existence of other problems you believe to be less. Caring about one issue does not prevent people from caring about another.

(And, the implication that sexism isn't a serious issue or cause serious problems...yeah, no)

 

[Vault101]

Sorry Vault, but I'm gonna have to call you out on this one. Your entire OP is just straight-up condescending, focusing way more on making fun of and ridiculing the people you are protesting rather than actively trying to make this discussion all-around less toxic. Now, I'm not denying that these people exist, but what you are doing here really isn't any better than what you're condemning. We need to create less hostility in these debates, not add to it, and posts like yours are only going to make things worse.

on the contrary...I think removing the pointless Bullshit from this whole affair would at least safe us our time..if not our sanity

 

[Zhukov]

tl;dr: Curious why the emphasis is on feminism while racism seems much worse.

There's a term for that. "Appeal to a greater problem" or something.

Or to put it another way:

Someone walks up to you, spits in your face and then walks away.
You call after them, "Hey, fuckwit, what the hell was that about?" A reasonable response in the circumstances.
They turn and reply, "Geez man, don't you know that there are homeless people dying of hypothermia every winter? And all you care about is some saliva on your face? Get some perspective and focus on what matters!"

The existence of a greater problem does not diminish a lesser problem. Especially if the two are unrelated. Also, caring about a lesser problem does not automatically mean that one does not care about a greater problem.

Lastly, people tend to be more concerned with that which is in their face and relevant to their own lives than that which is not. For example, most people would get more distressed over, say, losing their job than over the fact that hundreds of people are dying of ebola right now.

 

[Jack Action]

"Agree with me or shut up" is a horrible idea for conversation, but it's great for creating an echo chamber. One could argue that the OP only says "stfu unless you've got something valid to talk about", but let's face it, people on the internet have a habit of dismissing anything they don't agree with as "not a valid argument, you're just upset because reasons". Aka "agree with me or shut up".

The assumption on anyone's part that they're right in doing this, especially for moral reasons, is both arrogant and dangerous.