Vault101's guide to gender debates

[San Martin]

hmmm...do you suppose this could count as a "what about the menz?"

You joke, but WHAT ABOUT THE MEN? You can be as smug as you like, but the fact is that men are now oppressed thanks to feminism.

As a man, I'll probably never be able to get a job because of gender quotas; if I break up with my girlfriend then I'll have to pay her alimony forever EVEN THOUGH WE DON'T HAVE CHILDREN; and nowadays, what with feminazis changing the law and controlling the government, if I got with a female at a party by plying her with excessive quantities of alcohol until she can barely walk, which is the normal way of hooking up, then apparently I'd be a rapist!

So shut up "Vault101": you feminists don't know how much you've fucked men over.

OT: I liked your post. We should be friends. Wanna go to a Prince concert with me? On the moon.

Way to completely miss the point of those problems you just stated. When a teenager can be raped by an older woman then forced to pay child support for the child of his rapist he had no idea he fathered until years later, there is without a doubt a huge gender bias in that area.

Actually, I agree: a case like the one you mentioned would be a terrible perversion of justice.

Where I suspect that we differ is that, whereas I am sure that most feminists would agree with you too, and would also like to see institutional change, you probably believe that feminists are actively working to perpetuate sexist family law.

Sorry if I put words in your mouth.

 

[Jack Action]

well its a little more complex than that its more about being honest

going back to my Eminem example if I honestly thought the guys schtick was purely an act and not the result of a troubled background then I would say so...but I honestly don't, I don't think I could give him the benefit of the doubt if I wanted to

some people (being rabid fans) would becomew hostile if you in anyway acused Eminem of being sexist

and if you asked me say a couple of years ago I would have defended Mass Effect to the death

I'm not saying I'm completly objective or perfect or whatever (only Jim is perfect) and I'll admit this whole gender thing IS my one rage button, I'm just saying people jump on the defensive when theres really no need

That's kind of the problem though. Who gets to decide if there is or not really a need?

I get where you're coming from, and being tired of threads about sexism. I've been lurking long enough to know there's one every few weeks, and they all look exactly the same, descend into a flamewar by page 3, and end up locked by 10, with a few bans thrown around for good measure.

But you can't (or rather shouldn't, you can if most of the population agrees with you, or you own the website) control conversations by deciding that certain opinions shouldn't be expressed because you disagree with them or don't like the people who express them.

Oh, and GabeN is our Lord and Savior, Jim is a false idol.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Spoiler: oh stop it you!

[img/]http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/galv5Il.gif[/img]

This resulted in a man-giggle.

I hope you're pleased with yourself.

 

[shrekfan246]

I'll say this though I feel like games were more diverse in the past than they are now, I think because financially theres more rising on them than ever

I wouldn't say that, there was a time when the only widely acclaimed female main character in games was Samus, it's no 50/50 split in representation, but I do think the variety you can choose in this day and age is quite good, it especially helps that you can customize your character to your liking in RPGs, just a few minutes ago I was playing as a female bounty hunter in Old Republic, and I can't wait for Dragon Age Inqusition to release so that I can play as a female Qunari Rift Mage, gonna be awesome to play as a 7 feet tall and horned mage

I won't speak for what Vault actually meant, but "diversity" doesn't necessarily mean "male/female".

Ten to twenty years ago, we had games like Crash Bandicoot, Spyro the Dragon, Banjo-Kazooie, Diddy Kong Racing, Jak & Daxter, games based on the Looney Tunes, Donkey Kong, Sly Cooper, Sonic the Hedgehog, Gex, Frogger, Ecco the Dolphin, Sam & Max, Yoshi's Story, Worms, Primal Rage, Star Fox, MediEvil, Grim Fandango, Earthworm Jim, Giants: Citizen Kabuto, Star Wars Episode I Racer, Klonoa, Conker's Bad Fur Day, Super Monkey Ball, Rachet & Clank, Katamari Damacy...

And while sure, some of those franchises are still around today, most of them aren't getting the sort of treatment they deserve.

And, that list is completely ignoring the rather large volume of other games where you were playing a human who happened to not be a grizzled middle-aged male. Of which we still admittedly get quite a few, yes, but in the past few years it's been a little bit more difficult to see the forest through all the scruffy gritty white faces and brown hair.

 

[zen5887]

Anyway, there's no denying that men suffer a fair amount of their own inequalities compared to women and that a good portion of feminists don't particularly care and may even outright oppose trying to fix them (at least in the case of NOW and alimony/child custody).

Let's not forget that just because something might not fall under the umbrella of "a feminist issue" doesn't mean that it's something that a feminist would just ignore.

For example, the high rates of male suicide and depression may not be a feminist issue (I mean, I think it is but that's not really what we're talking about here), but that doesn't mean people who identify as feminists ignore or disregard it. It might not be right at the top of their "things to talk about" list, but if you brought it up with someone, and assuming they were a balanced human being, they aren't doing to dismiss it.

A completely inappropriate analogy would be if somebody was talking to be about corruption or cheating in high level sports. I don't care about sports at all but if I heard that a championship team was found cheated, I'd think it was pretty fucked up.

Yeah there are inequalities that men suffer (much fewer than women but again that isn't really what we're talking about...), but I absolutely disagree that feminists don't particualarly care.

 

[JimB]

Predominant aggressor policies
Domestic violence/abuse lies used to propagate Domestic Abuse shelter BS gender policies
Dear Colleague Letter

May I ask what your point here is, carnex? Are you arguing that feminism is a bad thing and women do not deserve equal protection and equal opportunities under the law because of these things, or are you arguing that feminism as a label is bad while accepting that the things feminism stands for are good, or what?

 

[JimB]

You mean labels like "misogynist," "basement-dweller," "nerd," "sexist," and so on? Labels which are not only accepted but actively promoted by the leading lights in the gaming SJW movement.

So apparently labels which denigrate men are okay, but labels which denigrate women, transsexuals, gay people and shitty journalists are not.

None of the words you said are applied exclusively to men. Women can be misogynists; see also the women who argue in favor of burqas or the women who called Rihanna a lying **** who deserved to get beat by Chris Brown. Women can be basement-dwellers; see also the crazy cat lady. Women can be nerds; see also Felicia Day for a famous example. Women can be sexist; see also the female anchors on Fox and Friends as they dismiss Senator Gillibrand's complaints about her treatment at the hands of her male coworkers.

It's really fucking tiresome dealing with the ignorant SJW ravings of those virgins who think getting laid involves sacrificing your manhood by prostrating yourself before the imaginary altar of women's collective ego.

That you think this movement is about putting penises in vaginas says a lot more about you and your motivations than it does the motivations of anyone involved. No one fears theft like a thief.

Wait, you get to choose when you have a baby? I sure as shit don't. In fact, when it comes to children, I get absolutely no fucking choice at all.

The very moment you are subjected to the same physical, social, and financial stresses of carrying a growing baby inside your body that a woman is subjected to, I will feel some sympathy. Until then, I cannot find it in me to pity you. This kind of complaint is nothing more than a desire to claim equal privileges in a situation in which you do not play an equal role or bear equal responsibilities. It is insupportable.

 

[Thaluikhain]

but there's no denying that there's a good amount that are perfectly willing to turn a blind eye towards such things and even dismiss them as nothing but a "but men too" thing when they're perfectly relevant to such a discussion.

The former is obviously wrong, but I can definitely understand the latter.

Any discussion about women's issues will have people coming in to say "what about the menz?". Unfortunately, someone trying to bring up a relevant point about men to the conversation is likely to be confused with those.

 

[zen5887]

And I agree with you there. I was actually trying to get that across with my comment when I only referred to a "good portion" rather than just a simple "all of them" or "the majority". I would never say all feminists don't care about issues affecting men, but there's no denying that there's a good amount that are perfectly willing to turn a blind eye towards such things and even dismiss them as nothing but a "but men too" thing when they're perfectly relevant to such a discussion.

What's a "good amount" though? Above 50%? 60%? 80%? Where are these numbers coming from?

Feminists seem to be, as the backhanded title implies, more intuned or sensitive to social justice issues. Like, I feel like a feminist, at least a 3rd wave feminist, is going to be more in tune with issues like race and homophobia and class issues and mental health. Have a look at the Ferguson incident for example, I'm confident that a lot of people who were making noise about the injustices would consider themselves feminists. We have a racial issue involving a man, yet it seems from where I'm sitting, people who happen to consider themselves feminists are getting really upset about this (if I can be snide for a moment, I haven't heard anything from the mens rights camp about this.. I guess they'd have to stop moaning about women for a second and actually deal with the rights of men).

It's the same with mental health, it's the same with class, it's the same with lgbt rights. Like I said, they might not be specifically feminist issues, but as a balanced human who is in tune with social justice, they are still worth discussing. And, from my viewpoint (boo anecdotal evidence) it is discussed by way way way way way way way more feminists than it is dismissed by feminists.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

Predominant aggressor policies
Domestic violence/abuse lies used to propagate Domestic Abuse shelter BS gender policies
Dear Colleague Letter

May I ask what your point here is, carnex? Are you arguing that feminism is a bad thing and women do not deserve equal protection and equal opportunities under the law because of these things, or are you arguing that feminism as a label is bad while accepting that the things feminism stands for are good, or what?

#

I think he's pointing out that issues that primarily affect women tend to be feminist's focus, whereas those that affect men are largely ignored, despite feminist's claims to want equality for men and women.

Anyway, I'm backing out of this thread before it erupts...

 

[AkaDad]

As I was reading this, it was like you were LITERALLY reaching out of my monitor and slapping my face.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'm surprised you didn't get more into "dictating how women feel on the issue," which I suppose falls under your first volley of dismissive examples.

implying that peoples experiences affect the weight of their opinions is stickyer ground than I'd care to tread...

I would think that men specifically attempting to tell women what women wanted would be fairly on topic and would ostensibly be uncontroversial.

 

[carnex]

Predominant aggressor policies
Domestic violence/abuse lies used to propagate Domestic Abuse shelter BS gender policies
Dear Colleague Letter

May I ask what your point here is, carnex? Are you arguing that feminism is a bad thing and women do not deserve equal protection and equal opportunities under the law because of these things, or are you arguing that feminism as a label is bad while accepting that the things feminism stands for are good, or what?

You made two connected statements implying that one comes from another. Those two statements are not interconnected in such a way. Please don't give my words meaning you want to see in them. Context was clear, people asked me why I don't see feminism as movement for equality, I presented them with 3, arguably 4 cases that came as result of strong political influence of feminist movement that puts one gender in highly favorable position to other. That is exactly contrary to equality.

Not to state my position in relevance to this in somewhat rough bulletpoints

- I believe that all human beings deserve equal rights and equal treatment under the law regardless to gender, race, sex and any other mental or physical classification that can be applied.

- I equally believe that people deserve equal treatment by their fellow humans up to the point where they themselves commit transgression against another person's rights. Even then justice is not in the hand of individual or group but organized judicial system. All the individual should do is stop associating, collaborating and giving common courtesies for reasons of protection of one's self, others important to given person and their property.

- I'm opposed to feminism as a movement as it is clearly not for equality based on policies implemented in laws and rules of various institutions that were implemented under their influence as well as constant propagation of skewed, misinterpreted of clearly false data.

- I commend feminism as movement for work they have don up to a point but I condemn it for quite a few actions that came to fruition in western world in last two to three decades.

- I do not deal with people based on labels, acting like that proved seriously dumb. I treat every human being as person regardless of labels that person gave to itself or others forced upon them.

- For me there are no sacred cows. Every thing is to be explored, analyzed and classified until one can extrapolate decently accurate opinion. Even movements we support with all our heart and judicial systems that we rely on for protection.

There, I hope that is clear enough. If you, by some chance, ran into my numerous posts in last few weeks, you would be able to see some more of my opinions and stances but in this case, these are most relevant ones.

 

[CymbaIine]

Might be a generalization on my part, but I couldn't help but think when you said "these examples of preference towards women over men makes me support feminism more" you were coming from a similar point to how some people who actually believe in the "patriarchy" will actually blame men for creating any inadequacies they have with women. If that's not the case of course, I apologize, but I'm not quite sure what you would be trying to imply with that statement otherwise.

I was implying that that ridiculous ranting ("you can legally kill my child", what the fuckity fuck?) is why we need feminism.

Anyway, there's no denying that men suffer a fair amount of their own inequalities compared to women and that a good portion of feminists don't particularly care and may even outright oppose trying to fix them (at least in the case of NOW and alimony/child custody).

The difference between the problems men disproportionately face and the ones women disproportionately face is that the ones men face tend to be linked to race, class and religion rather than gender. I am a feminist and just because I advocate feminism and recognise it's value doesn't mean I don't also advocate other causes. My only children are male, I care very much about the problems they will face.

As for child custody in the US I really couldn't comment as I not aware of the problems you speak about. It is worth noting though that this issue comes up far more than incarceration, low life expectancy, murder and addiction despite the fact that all of those are things that men suffer more than women. I suspect (well to be honest I am sure) this is because that unlike the problems I listed custody and alimony are the only ones that women are supposedly benefiting, and that right there is the problem with MRA.

 

[CymbaIine]

hey you two!

It's like you opened a can of kerosene and poured it alllll over the fire.

 

[sageoftruth]

I haven't finished reading yet. I just want to say, I don't care what you wrote there. I just love the way you wrote it.