"Virgin shaming": I know we have a lot of "but what about men's problems?" people out there.

[The Funslinger]

And some dudes have a virgin preference? I'm honestly interested to understand that. Unless it's some sort of fetish. Is it some sort of fetish?

Probably with some people. Which does creep me out. It comes off as a second cousin to pedophilia (e.g. craving that innocent aspect) but with some people, it's more down to the "sex is sacred" thing. Which I think is silly, as I think you'll do better if you have some experience under your belt (no pun intended) as to pleasing a partner, and you need to know if you're sexually compatible. Kind of difficult if you choose to only have sex with the person you have your heart set on spending your life with.

But, each to their own...

 

[The Funslinger]

I dont want to pressure every woman nto being a fucking nun until she meets me at which point she should drop her pants faster than a guy who had taco bell for lunch, but I think a little self control (and respect) isnt always amiss.

See, I'd say that this is slut shaming. You're assuming that a girl who has lots of sex with many different men lacks self-control and self-respect. Couldn't it be that she is in control but chooses to have lots of sex? And not because she has any self-respect5 issues, but simply because she likes it?

Exactly! This is a point I've always made. "Slut" isn't EVER defined by an arbitrary amount of sex someone has. It's only defined by the reasons as to why they have sex.

 

[Phasmal]

Gods, that flashback made me remember how much I hate women.

Yeah cause we're a hive mind.
Don't be stupid.
Slut shaming and virgin shaming are done by both genders. Why?
Cause some PEOPLE suck.
Honestly, its like some people on here choose not to use their brain.

EDIT: Ok, this bugs me. For all the times I've been accused of hating men (I don't), I've never once said `I hate men` (because I don't), but apparently hating all women because some women were mean to you is perfectly acceptable?

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Well, to be honest, if you (anyone) is a virgin, then you have yet to experience an important part of life.

No shit.
I haven't gone skydiving either, but people don't tend to make fun of you for that.

You haven't gone skydiving? What a loser!

*cough*

OT: who cares? No, really-who cares if someone has slept with a lot of people or no one? Man, seriously, if someone cares that much and feels the need to point it out, if anything, THEY have the problem--the problem being nothing better to do in their lives than care about what others are doing in theirs.

Easy way to shut down a douche and move on:

"Hur hur, you're a virgin."

"Good call, Einstein. Take you long to figure it out? Oh wait, don't answer-I don't care."

-

"Hur hur, you're a slut."

"And apparently you're jealous enough to be thinking about my sex life. Sucks for you, bro."

That is all. I will leave now. Carry on!

 

[bobmus]

*Looks into thread, sees angry flame war about feminism and misogyny, backs away very slowly.*
Just remember guys, a flame war isn't like a real war - there are no winners, only casualties.

 

[LetalisK]

Slut shaming and virgin shaming are done by both genders. Why?

It's a plot by the Illuminati. Pressure the girls into keeping their legs closed for fear of social repercussions, but inspire boys to fuck as much as humanly possible. So if the boys can't have sex with the girls, what happens? They start fucking each other. That's right, the Illuminati is trying to turn our whole society gay.

 

[Ricky 49]

People still bring up Freudian psychology in 2012?

Look, guys, I don't mind bringing psychology up in an argument, but could you at least use a source that isn't 80+ years old? Freud's psychological theories are largely anachronistic today, especially when it comes to sex.

All psychology isn't Freudian.

that is not a great argument that.

yeah there has been other work on that could be just as relevant

but saying we should ignore Freud's theories because they old is like saying

"gravity pffff what tripe, Issac newton theory is over 200 years old!"

as for the virgin shaming thing the only people who really do that can charitably called juvenile. i don't take people who do this very seriously as human beings

same can be said for those who calls a woman a sluts for having lots of sex.
women, next time a man/other woman calls you a slut simply say
"i am a modern woman and i'm winning" if its a guy calling you a slut chances are he is one of thous people who aspires to be a stud and is just jealous.

just to be clear i'm not trying to encourage women to be more promiscuous what i'm saying is if you want to, you should be allowed to without being judged
so long as your not hurting yourself or others you have the right to do whatever you want in life.

 

[LetalisK]

that is not a great argument that.

yeah there has been other work on that could be just as relevant

but saying because Freud's theories because they old is like saying

"gravity pffff what tripe, Issac newton theory is over 200 years old!"

No, he's right. Scientifically speaking, Freud's theories are more like spontaneous generation than Isaac Newton's theories. After Freud's time it didn't take even psychoanalysts long to distance themselves from him. In modern psychology, Freud is regarded as the person that first popularized psychology, for both good and so much ill. Beyond that...eh. And I don't think he meant old as in "Those theories were created so long ago". I think he means it in the sense of "Those theories were discarded so long ago."

 

[Jonatron]

In fact man-boys are nothing new, they have always existed, and the purpose of all this peer pressure to try and make them have sex is society's way of saying "you don't meet the minimum standards of a human being, clean yourself up." It's not really about the sex, it's about withholding sex to force them to grow up and take better care of their body and mind, and realize more of their unexplored potential.

Took a gut wrenching crush before I learned to love my tooth brush a few years back. Now the thought of being attractive to women is the main factor in making me go to the gym.

 

[Genericjim101]

22 years old, had once been in a two year relationship. Still haven't done the deed. Sometimes shit is more complicated and regardless of one's wishes for gratification you put it aside. Doesn't matter either way to me tbh. The whole virgin requirement is a sign of male insecurity at not wanting to be compared to anyone before hand, yet many guys would go with a porn star XD. Waaaay too much emphasis all over someone getting their jollies.

 

[Kevlar Eater]

Spoiler

Yeah cause we're a hive mind.
Don't be stupid.
Slut shaming and virgin shaming are done by both genders. Why?
Cause some PEOPLE suck.
Honestly, its like some people on here choose not to use their brain.

EDIT: Ok, this bugs me. For all the times I've been accused of hating men (I don't), I've never once said `I hate men` (because I don't), but apparently hating all women because some women were mean to you is perfectly acceptable?

Have you personally been on the receiving end of virgin shaming? Stuff like this tends to warp peoples' minds into something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. And yes, I did use an error of words, but that does't mean you can call me stupid, but like I said, it was based on my personal experience. I meant to say I hate everyone, not just women (just forgot to word it correctly). And to really clarify, most people suck.

 

[the Dept of Science]

I think that "virgin" can be used in 2 different ways in society. I don't think many people judge you based merely on the fact that you haven't had sex, say, for religious reasons or any time when its merely been a concious choice. I don't think that any of these people were shamed for their virginity, they just had different goals in life.

However, a lot of the time when people use virgin as an insult, they don't mean merely "person that hasn't had sex", they mean the virgin stereotype, the socially incompetent loser, the mom-basement-dweller. While I think open mockery is bad in any context, I think its reasonable that the unhealthy lifestyle of the virgin stereotype does carry some social stigma. Virginity can be the result of some things that are undeniably negative personality traits such as bitterness towards women, poor personal hygene or manners, being boring, creepy or excessively shy etc. If they desperately long to have sex but aren't for whatever reason, then they need to sort out some area of their life.

I think that there is a good analogy with someone's career. There's a certain stigma attached to working crap job. It may not be a bad thing in itself, perhaps you are doing it to fund your college degree or get your first foot on the career ladder. However, if you are in a crap job because you simply can't get another one, maybe that's a sign that you should evolve as a person, get a qualification or apply to more places.

So, yea, don't shame a perfectly decent human who is saving themselves for marriage or is too devoted to their career to get into the dating scene, but maybe the guy who just spent £1,000 on a real doll so that he can further distance himself from the real world.

Basically, it's unfair to shame someone for virginity when it is a mere lifestyle choice, however, virginity can be a reflection of real problems in someone's life. Like all insults, if its untrue then you have no reason to be insulted by them, but if they are true, maybe you are the problem and should work on yourself.

 

[Phasmal]

Spoiler

Yeah cause we're a hive mind.
Don't be stupid.
Slut shaming and virgin shaming are done by both genders. Why?
Cause some PEOPLE suck.
Honestly, its like some people on here choose not to use their brain.

EDIT: Ok, this bugs me. For all the times I've been accused of hating men (I don't), I've never once said `I hate men` (because I don't), but apparently hating all women because some women were mean to you is perfectly acceptable?

Have you personally been on the receiving end of virgin shaming? Stuff like this tends to warp peoples' minds into something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. And yes, I did use an error of words, but that does't mean you can call me stupid, but like I said, it was based on my personal experience. I meant to say I hate everyone, not just women (just forgot to word it correctly). And to really clarify, most people suck.

Yep, and slut shaming.
That might be a bit confusing, let me clarify a bit. When I was in school it was uncool to be a virgin, so I can't count how many times I got called frigid, ugly, and others.

And when I broke up with my ex boyfriend, he decided the best way to handle it was tell everyone I was a cheating whore and ring me up at 2am every night -drunk- just to confirm this. (Also, my mother who is bipolar was going through a low phase and really didn't help but I wont hold that aginst her).

It would indeed be stupid to declare you hate women because you had bad experiences with some, but since its you've said it was an error, fair enough. Not stupid then.

 

[Hugga_Bear]

People still bring up Freudian psychology in 2012?

Look, guys, I don't mind bringing psychology up in an argument, but could you at least use a source that isn't 80+ years old? Freud's psychological theories are largely anachronistic today, especially when it comes to sex.

All psychology isn't Freudian.

that is not a great argument that.

yeah there has been other work on that could be just as relevant

but saying we should ignore Freud's theories because they old is like saying

"gravity pffff what tripe, Issac newton theory is over 200 years old!"

as for the virgin shaming thing the only people who really do that can charitably called juvenile. i don't take people who do this very seriously as human beings

same can be said for those who calls a woman a sluts for having lots of sex.
women, next time a man/other woman calls you a slut simply say
"i am a modern woman and i'm winning" if its a guy calling you a slut chances are he is one of thous people who aspires to be a stud and is just jealous.

just to be clear i'm not trying to encourage women to be more promiscuous what i'm saying is if you want to you should be allowed to without being judged
so long as your not hurting yourself or others you have the right to do whatever you want in life.

We should, however, ignore Freud's hypotheses because they are ridiculous and have been COMPLETELY rejected by any psychologist ever with more than two brain cells. Seriously there's like no evidence on the ground for Freud or dream analysis or any of that rubbish. Even at the time he was pretty well ridiculed all round. His ideas were interesting and progressive but completely, utterly and horribly wrong.

Virgin shaming is quite...odd, as is slut shaming. I don't get why people care so much about others' sex lives, why does it matter to them? If you want to fuck, fuck. If you don't, then don't.

Captcha: finger lickin good. Nice captcha, keeping it classy.

 

[Dastardly]

snip

Regarding your comments linking "love" and "sex," I think you're mistaken. In my experience, and having discussed it many times with my wife, women are far more likely to connect sex to love than men. Most of the criticism men face about how they (generally speaking) view sex is a direct result of the more general feminine view being pushed in media that targets women.

Men are more likely to compartmentalize the two. Sex is about sex, and love is about love. And when a man behaves in this way, someone who is unable to compartmentalize them assumes the man is incapable of love if he can have sex "without it."

An obvious exception to this would be young, inexperienced men (both romantically and sexually). This is because they're still working with a notion of romance and sex that is gained from, by and large, media aimed at the more general feminine view.

This is not a value judgment or a right/wrong statement. This is simply an explanation over why there is so much conflict between men and women regarding sex and love. Neither is speaking or understanding the other's "native language," and miscommunication is a given.

How this relates to the rest of your original topic:

1. Slut shaming - The majority of this is perpetrated by women, against those women who (as with many men) compartmentalize love and sex. They enjoy sex and want to have it, and they don't feel that love is a requirement. Women who hold the more "classic" view then shame her, in defense of their own sensibilities. Sex and love are intertwined, so sex without love is a social abomination, because it flies in the face of a tightly-held value system.

2. Virgin shaming - This has nothing to do with sex at all. This has to do with males wanting to establish dominance over other males. So, you pick something you're good at, or something you've done, and you make that a requirement to be a "real man." If you're good at football, that's what "real men do," and screw those basketball dorks... and if you're into basketball, well, same thing to the football morons. If you've had sex or done drugs or been in fights, ta-da -- you've got an ace-in-the-hole when it comes to that game. And it has nothing to do with sex itself.

 

[dragonswarrior]

Just out of interest, what would you consider to be slut shaming?

Because I got a lot of shit for being turned off by women who were... Well, lets call them promiscuous. I dunno guys, I just cant go into a relationship knowing the woman next to me has slept with more than 20 men, some of them at the same time. It just aint fucking sexy man. I dont want to pressure every woman into being a fucking nun until she meets me at which point she should drop her pants faster than a guy who had taco bell for lunch, but I think a little self control (and respect) isnt always amiss. Just to be clear, I dont refuse to sleep with anyone who is not a virgin like some men out there, but you know.

It's not about personal preferences though. It's about mocking or belittling others for THEIR personal preferences.

If you don't want to have sex with a promiscuous woman, hey, that's totally your choice. But it is HER choice to be promiscuous, and enjoy herself, her body, and her sex in that way. She will have to face the consequences of that choice (i.e being a turn off to some men who might have made a good relationship/greater risk of disease and/or pregnancy) but then you have to face the consequences of your choice (perhaps glossing over a woman due to her sexual habits when she might have made an awesome partner with you).

That isn't the issue. The issue is when people attack virgins for being virgins, or sex loving people for being sex loving people. If you aren't actively hurting someone else, there is nothing wrong with what you are doing.

EDIT: In response to your later comment about how Lilith is attacking porn/being a hypocrite, whatever. Porn, and sex work in general, is frequently filled with women who were sexually abused early in their life, and have huge psychological issues. While one should respect their choice to go into whatever profession they choose, generally a number of women choose to go into this profession because they are wounded. Not ALL women, but a lot of them yes. So... It makes for a really complicated issue. Because in general the porno and sex work industries do nothing to help the women recover, and in general only make their conditions worse. So yea, I can understand saying "Sex is good but sex work is bad" and not being a hypocrite about it.

Awesome Snips

So... I'm starting to think you are awesome. Just throwing that out there.

 

[Ricky 49]

No, he's right. Scientifically speaking, Freud's theories are more like spontaneous generation than Isaac Newton's theories. After Freud's time it didn't take even psychoanalysts long to distance themselves from him. In modern psychology, Freud is regarded as the person that first popularized psychology, for both good and so much ill. Beyond that...eh. And I don't think he meant old as in "Those theories were created so long ago". I think he means it in the sense of "Those theories were discarded so long ago."

i'm still not convinced by this

they are still teaching Freudian theory at degree level and has significantly influenced a lot of modern research and philosophy so i would hardly call his theory disregarded. and as far as psychology is concerned Freud writes nothing on the topic. Freud created psychoanalysis a different theory, it could be argued the modern psychology came from Freudian psychoanalysis. the split between the two theories happen at around 1907 when Carl Jung considered one of the founders of modern psychology, split off from Freud's group to make his own theory. i think there are few other founders of modern psychology that came from Freud's crew to make their own theories.

Why so many split of from Freud's collective?
answer: Freud was a jerk, doesn't mean his theory's were wrong though

anyway this is way off topic.

on topic

ummm... on topic errr... oh i got it! what would Freud say on this matter would probably be

on
men/woman who think women should stay pure. "women you are gonna go crazy trying to do that"
on
men/woman thinking men being a stud is great. "*sarcastic clap* well done men for giving into your animal sides. yay for civilized man and all that. you gonna start smashing everything up and live in cave as well Mr manly man?"

as i said he was a colossal jerk and that was kinda a parody of him. but the point he was trying to get across in his theory in basic terms is that in society you need balance your animal needs with societal values. both telling women to refrain from having sex and encouraging men to have as much as possible damages both men and women mentally.

ignore natural needs to much and you go crazy. i.e neurotic
ignore societal values too much you may also become crazy/also you kinda suck as a person

 

[Digitaldreamer7]

Virgin shaming doesn't really happen when you are older. It turns into baggage later on in life. A man/woman's lack of sexual experience and development is actually a negative thing the older they get. I for one wouldn't be with a woman who was a virgin simply because as a 30 year old man, I expect a woman of around the same age to have experienced sexuality and grown in that aspect. I'm not saying she's gotta have a bunch of dudes under he belt, I just expect her to have some sort of healthy view on sex and have had a sexual relationship at one time in her life.