Wait, Why the Hell is That Considered "Legendary?"

[Matt_LRR]

Oh yeah, that quote. Yes yes, they may have inspired a few crappy bands to become famous but I'd think that's more of record companies looking for more bands in that area and that style rather than being truly influential to the masses.

Comments like that make this an impossible discussion to actually have. Hell, I don't like the white stripes, and I think Jack White is a tool, but I can see how their work has influenced the industry despite personal distate for them or for the genre.

Simply brushing that aside by saying "sure they may have influnenced people, but they influenced crappy people so I reject your claim" pakes this whole discussion pointless.

-m

You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying those bands suck, therefore you're wrong, (I just kinda threw in my own personal opinion on those bands for...well whatever reason) I'm saying that the White Stripes were popular at the time which lead to record companies going out and finding bands that sounded similar because that's what people wanted to listen to.

It's the same when you get any popular band. Look how many boy bands popped up in the 90s due to the success of one. Does that make them influential? Maybe. Does that make them legendary? Hell no. Just because they're popular in one place at one time doesn't make them a legend.

Think of how many bands in the similar style of the Rolling Stones came out at the time of their success yet went nowhere. The same can be applied to any successful band.

But there's a difference between inspiring a bunch of copycat bands, and being instrumental in the definition of a genrre, or changing the face of modern music.

Take Nirvana. On the one hand, they were a band that got popular in a given scene and spawned a bunch of copycat bands because their label followed a larger trend within the industry.

On the other hand, Nirvana was at the core of the grunge movement of the 90's, They were innovative and fresh, and they changed the face of rock music, by mainstreaming the alternative scene. Band after band tried to be the next nirvana - and while grunge is now dead, many current bands still trace their origins to nirvana.

I can't remember who, but the lead singer of one band I listen to (who aren't even really alt-rock) attribuite their entire career to the first time they listened to "Nevermind".

The white stripes have had a similar effect on music today. Perhaps not quite as profound - but they have played with sound and genre, developed rock music in a way that has helped to shape what we're listening to right now - That's more than simply spawning a few knockoff bands.

-m

 

[Julianking93]

But there's a difference between inspiring a bunch of copycat bands, and being instrumental in the definition of a genrre, or changing the face of modern music.

Take Nirvana. On the one hand, they were a band that got popular in a given scene and spawned a bunch of copycat bands because their label followed a larger trend within the industry.

On the other hand, Nirvana was at the core of the grunge movement of the 90's, They were innovative and fresh, and they changed the face of rock music, by mainstreaming the alternative scene. Band after band tried to be the next nirvana - and while grunge is now dead, many current bands still trace their origins to nirvana.

I can't remember who, but the lead singer of one band I listen to (who aren't even really alt-rock) attribuite their entire career to the first time they listened to "Nevermind".

The white stripes have had a similar effect on music today. Perhaps not quite as profound - but they have played with sound and genre, developed rock music in a way that has helped to shape what we're listening to right now - That's more than simply spawning a few knockoff bands.

-m

Yes, this is true. There is a difference between being just popular to copycat from and being truly genre shaping and I wouldn't consider the White Stripes to do so. They made that type of genre popular again which in turn lead to bands who already had a similar sound becoming popular as well in an attempt to cash in on the success of that particular genre.

Nirvana was the biggest and arguably the best grunge band for the time because their sound was really what shaped the way people look at, not only that genre but that entire decade of music and they managed to do so in a very short career of about 5 years. While they began in 87, they didn't really become famous until about 90.

Sure there were bands before them that I can say did a similar sound better (one of which was the Pixies whom Cobain states is one of his biggest influences) but that doesn't change the fact that Nirvana managed to really shape an entire decade.

I honestly can't say that Jack White has done the same. While he may be inspiring to one particular small group of people, that doesn't change the way music is made or even listened to. Hell even though so many people I know love them to an insane degree, they're still not some band that every single person even knows about much less loves.

So what I'm really getting at is that I've yet to notice any band or anyone be truly inspired by the supposed "Detroit Rock Scene" as described before (even though those bands aren't even from Detroit) but rather just spawned a few bands that have a style in the same vain of the most popular band of the time.

 

[Matt_LRR]

But there's a difference between inspiring a bunch of copycat bands, and being instrumental in the definition of a genrre, or changing the face of modern music.

Take Nirvana. On the one hand, they were a band that got popular in a given scene and spawned a bunch of copycat bands because their label followed a larger trend within the industry.

On the other hand, Nirvana was at the core of the grunge movement of the 90's, They were innovative and fresh, and they changed the face of rock music, by mainstreaming the alternative scene. Band after band tried to be the next nirvana - and while grunge is now dead, many current bands still trace their origins to nirvana.

I can't remember who, but the lead singer of one band I listen to (who aren't even really alt-rock) attribuite their entire career to the first time they listened to "Nevermind".

The white stripes have had a similar effect on music today. Perhaps not quite as profound - but they have played with sound and genre, developed rock music in a way that has helped to shape what we're listening to right now - That's more than simply spawning a few knockoff bands.

-m

Yes, this is true. There is a difference between being just popular to copycat from and being truly genre shaping and I wouldn't consider the White Stripes to do so. They made that type of genre popular again which in turn lead to bands who already had a similar sound becoming popular as well in an attempt to cash in on the success of that particular genre.

Nirvana was the biggest and arguably the best grunge band for the time because their sound was really what shaped the way people look at, not only that genre but that entire decade of music and they managed to do so in a very short career of about 5 years. While they began in 87, they didn't really become famous until about 90.

Sure there were bands before them that I can say did a similar sound better (one of which was the Pixies whom Cobain states is one of his biggest influences) but that doesn't change the fact that Nirvana managed to really shape an entire decade.

I honestly can't say that Jack White has done the same. While he may be inspiring to one particular small group of people, that doesn't change the way music is made or even listened to. Hell even though so many people I know love them to an insane degree, they're still not some band that every single person even knows about much less loves.

So what I'm really getting at is that I've yet to notice any band or anyone be truly inspired by the supposed "Detroit Rock Scene" as described before (even though those bands aren't even from Detroit) but rather just spawned a few bands that have a style in the same vain of the most popular band of the time.

But the fact that the question can be argued is enough to prove the point.

Why are the white stripes considered "legendary"? because many people consider them to have had deep influence on the face of music today. Maybe you disagree, but that's why.

-m

 

[Xojins]

Perhaps. I think Avatar is considered legendary by some mostly for its astounding visuals; so it is legendary as far as use of animation and graphics technology, but not because of the plot or acting.

Anyway, the two things that stand out in my mind are when I heard Use Somebody by Kings of Leon won the song of the year from somewhere, and when I heard The Hurt Locker won movie of the year. I don't really dislike either of those, but they weren't the best of the year by any means.

 

[Kinguendo]

The Detroit garage scene EXPLODED into popular culture because of Jack White. Without him you wouldn't have The Strokes, the Black Keys, The Hives, Franz Ferdinand, etc--the list goes on. Listen to the album Elephant from front to back and tell me it doesn't change your freaking life.

I have and it didnt... what now? Oh, nothing... yeah, thats what I thought. Nothing has changed and it wont because of the white stripes' music unless they get involved in politics and then it still wont be because of their music.

EDIT: Do you know what changed my life more? The first time I heard metal, the first time I heard Enter Sandman from the S&M album, etc. Those instances changed my life... the first time I heard The White Stripes I was flicking through some music channels and wasnt impressed enough to stop and find out who it was.

 

[Souplex]

The best example I can think of on this subject is Half Life 2. The most average shooter ever made.
It's the story of a power-armored non-character as he saves the free world with two fistfulls of lead shot out of generic weapons at generically evil aliens while assisted by a shoehorned in love interest and a minority sidekick who happen to be the same person.

Do you ever get tired of sounding like a broken record and repeating this same mantra in every single thread which affords you the opportunity?

Let's have a hypothetical here:
Someone makes a thread for favorite cuts of beef. I'd post ribeye because it's the best.
A week later someone repeats that thread, or makes something incredibly similar in nature. Unless the cuts of beef have started to change their awesome levels of awesome, or a new cut of beef was discovered between threads ribeye still applies.
Similarly, Half Life 2 did not stop being the most average, overrated piece of average to ever disgrace humanity through it's popularity, and as such remains the appropriate choice.
It's not that Half Life 2 is bad, it's merely average. It just has the worst quality/profit N' popularity ratio this side of WoWcrack.
So no; I do not. I'll stop when people realize Valve is full of hacks. Since that won't happen any time soon I guess I'm stuck repeating myself.
Now I want a ribeye steak.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Half-Life 2.
Specifically, Gordon Freeman's character. I'm rather tired of people telling me how awesome he is, or how great his character is.

He is...well. He's just a puppet for the player to project into. That's why he's the only sentient being in the entire game who is incapable of speaking.
This means that outside of what people TELL YOU, Gordon Freeman is utterly devoid of character.
He has no interests. He has no opinions. He has no fears.
He's an MIT physicist who doesn't do what he was trained to do.

Why is he so great again?

 

[SonicKoala]

The best example I can think of on this subject is Half Life 2. The most average shooter ever made.
It's the story of a power-armored non-character as he saves the free world with two fistfulls of lead shot out of generic weapons at generically evil aliens while assisted by a shoehorned in love interest and a minority sidekick who happen to be the same person.

Do you ever get tired of sounding like a broken record and repeating this same mantra in every single thread which affords you the opportunity?

Let's have a hypothetical here:
Someone makes a thread for favorite cuts of beef. I'd post ribeye because it's the best.
A week later someone repeats that thread, or makes something incredibly similar in nature. Unless the cuts of beef have started to change their awesome levels of awesome, or a new cut of beef was discovered between threads ribeye still applies.
Similarly, Half Life 2 did not stop being the most average, overrated piece of average to ever disgrace humanity through it's popularity, and as such remains the appropriate choice.
It's not that Half Life 2 is bad, it's merely average. It just has the worst quality/profit N' popularity ratio this side of WoWcrack.
So no; I do not. I'll stop when people realize Valve is full of hacks. Since that won't happen any time soon I guess I'm stuck repeating myself.
Now I want a ribeye steak.

I see your point - I suppose I could follow up my original question with something along the lines of "what is, ultimately, the point?", but then that would just evolve into a larger discussion of "what is the point of ever sharing one's opinion on anything", so I won't go there. Maybe it's because I just happen to stumble upon threads where Half-Life 2 could potentially be brought up, but I'd just seen you bring up that point so many times that I just had to ask.

And now I want a ribeye, as well. Damn you.

 

[PhunkyPhazon]

Ah yes, Avatar rings true with me as well. It's far from being a bad movie, but its hardly the instant classic some people paint it out to be.

And I'm probably going to get flamed for this one, but I'll also have to say Portal. Or more rather the humor of Portal. Maybe it's just because I had heard all the jokes referenced out of context a trillion times before I played the game, but I really don't find the game to be all that funny. And while I could say the gameplay is overrated, that's really due to my distaste for puzzle games. The game may not really be my cup of tea, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize that it's well made.

 

[Nigh Invulnerable]

Pro tip: the extent to which you enjoy something has no bearing whatsoever on how influential, boundary pushing, or innovative it was.

Things become "legendary" because they advance an art form, not because they are necessarily "good" form a pop-culure point of view.

ex: Ulysses is practically unreadable to the general population, but that doesn't mean it isn't an all-time great piece of literature.

-m

Yes, I understand that and I'm not forcing my opinion upon anyone. I know the difference between things that are "good" in my own personal opinion and things that truly change and are influential for their time.

Take what I said about Avatar before. I didn't like it but I can tell how truly groundbreaking it is due to its use of effects and 3D. It will influence many to do the same.

However, calling everything someone likes "legendary" or "ground breaking" just because a lot of people like it does not make it so.

This is why I use the White Stripes as my example. I know many people who like/love them. I myself love their music and am a big fan of Jack White but to say he's a "musical genius" or a "visionary for the musical world" is just out right ridiculous.

That stuff is popular. Not legendary. They never revolutionized anything, they never changed the face of music. That's people's personal opinion. It's no different than the obsession with Twilight right now. Do really think that will change anything? No. Will Justin Bieber change the face of music? Of course not! It's people's personal opinion in the heat of the moment getting in the way of true judgment.

Umm... previously in this very thread people have described how the white stripes are largely responsible for the explosion of an entire subgenre of music into the mainstream.

You're talking about aband that became big and high-profile because of it's contribution to the musical scene, its innovation, and it's role in the development of the face of modern music.

Avatar is almost certainly going to be hugely influential to the industry at large, and pushed the bleeding edge of filmmaking technology beyond what anyone has ever done before.

These are things that are popular, yes, but their popularity is not a case of people elevating them undeservedly.

basically, you chose really bad examples.

-m

I would argue that being the poster band for "garage rock" (or however we're labeling the White Stripes) is hardly "legendary". Sure, they brought a surge of interest in the style back into the mainstream, but does Jack White write or play anything that's really groundbreaking? I'd say not. Don't get me wrong though, he's a talented guitarist and all, but I don't find his style all that appealing.

 

[Starke]

People are like drugged monkeys and are very easily entertained by random coloured lights.

Well, that certainly explains the state of American TV the last time I looked at it.

 

[Starke]

Ah yes, Avatar rings true with me as well. It's far from being a bad movie, but its hardly the instant classic some people paint it out to be.

And I'm probably going to get flamed for this one, but I'll also have to say Portal. Or more rather the humor of Portal. Maybe it's just because I had heard all the jokes referenced out of context a trillion times before I played the game, but I really don't find the game to be all that funny. And while I could say the gameplay is overrated, that's really due to my distaste for puzzle games. The game may not really be my cup of tea, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize that it's well made.

If it makes you feel better, I'll back you up on Portal. It might be ground breaking in the sheer number of memes it produced, but otherwise, there wasn't a lot there. The humor was nothing new. The gameplay was a refined spin on Prey that failed to be quite as imaginative (if that's possible). I'm not saying it's bad, or that Prey was a better game (its not) but that it just wasn't really anything spectacularly new.

Apologies for the double post.

 

[Chrinik]

Thats completely unfair, most metal guitar players play better while drunk, If you can manage to find one who can play while drunk and on fire, then they'll be declared the best guitar player in the world by default, no matter how bad they play.

Well I have to say that this actually happened...I was at the small garage style gig of my friends, and it involved some high volume alcoholic beverages...really high...like, above 60Vol%...
And he spilled some on his trousers and I didn´t notice, so I lit up a smoke and flailed around with my zippo and his pants caught on fire.
He literally didn´t notice for the next 30 or so seconds until he became completely engulfed...and then the guy with an extiguisher I called for came and put him out.
So yes, I know a metal guitarist who can play while on fire.
It was a fun night and the blokes at the hospital where nice...gave me some painkillers.

 

[Mcupobob]

Or even The Catcher in the Rye, which is considered to be the greatest piece of literature of the last 100 years, yet when I read it, I was annoyed, bored and just outright pissed off that it is held so highly amongst literate types. Can someone explain to me why these things are so heavily praised?

So my question, Escapist, is do you ever feel the same way about heavily praised movies, games, music or even books?

Again with the Cather and Rye argument. You can't honestly say that a book that has been critically acclaimed for over 50 years be bad? Just because you didn't understand it. Holden is a charater who almost everyone could relate too. Whether you're a lost induvidual b.s'ing through every social interaction despite how fake and painfull it feels. Wether you're a hopeless romantic looking for any kind of love and connection, wether you lost a sibling or can only relate to a close sibling,or wether you can't connect to your parents in any meaning full way. Holden is just so very human and thats what makes the book special . Now here's another twist on things thats just what I got from it, you can almost pull anything out of it and find some meaning to it to fit your life.

Now about the White Stripes, their music is different and is shaking up mainstream a bit. I'm no real fan of their music, but I stuck a few songs on my Ipod because their music is signature, and even I can tell it when one of their songs is playing(I'm not a music buff and alot of stuff sounds samey to me, but thats just opinion). Now, I don't think they will be changing up the music scence in anyway but for now they're pretty good compared to most recent stuff i've heard.

 

[Pipotchi]

I totally agree about the white stripes. Some of their songs have a good groove and are super catchy, but amazing, they are not.

I think the same about alot of popular music though, sorry I can't think of anything right now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz4dVof3mTc this is "Little Acorns" off of "Elephant." I know people who's lives this song saved.

So? That just makes it a song that saved someone. Doesnt make it a legendary song, or even a good song it means nothing except to the person it saved I suppose. Also the fact that the White Stripes let to the explosion of the Detriot garage Scene also means bugger all.

The facts of it are that most Rock bands from the last 20 years are merely rehashing what Pink Floyd and Led Zeppilin and others did in the 60's and 70's. Some good some bad but nothing original

 

[oliveira8]

Or someone may say that the Beatles aren't good in their opinion, but you can't for a second deny that they changed the music industry and heavily influenced practically everyone after them.

I can.

The Beatles in my opinion didn't change a bloody thing.
It's just what people whom liked them want to think because they're pulling them up on high horses.
Just like Elvis and Michael Jacksson.

They may be good, they may be influencial to other artists.
But they didn't change a damn thing. Saying that they did, is in my mind, thinking about them too highly.

I think you have ZERO knowledge of music history and the industry. If you had any, you probably wouldn't say that.

The Beatles didn't change nothing right? Yeah let's ignore how they changed how music was recorded, that they revolutionized what an album was (and is) and basically changed how people connected and felt about music. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

I recommend you spend some days learning who The Beatles really were. You might learn something.

 

[John47]

a

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

For example; I personally didn't like the movie Avatar. Yet, while I didn't enjoy it as much as a lot of people, I can easily say that it indeed is a good movie considering the astounding use of 3D and the amazing special effects.

It is "legendary" because it was filmed in a fashion that had never been done before. Because many of the CG effects actually achieved the holy grail of not looking like a CG effect. It wasn't because of the story or setting or acting or direction - all of these were competent and servicable enough. It is little more than technological artistry that makes the movie notable.