I really have been trying to avoid contributing further to this thread, because honestly I hate talking about politics. Not because I dislike intelligent discourse but because it often degenerates into an opportunity for people to display monumental levels of egotism and arrogance, and seldom if EVER results in anyone changing their opinion or point of view. It is the EXACT equivalent to the "Xbox vs. PS3" arguments, to which there is no real winner, because no matter what "facts" you think should decisively end the conservation, it NEVER really does. I could sit here and list point by point every single reason that personally identifies me with a given political ideology or another and no matter how logical or sound my philosophy is, there will be someone who will reject them outright and feel superior to me simply because they THINK they are the most knowledgeable or intelligent.
However, I would feel remiss if I let this go without at least doing the courtesy of responding, especially given the tone of arrogance you used, which is a severe pet peeve for me, as stated in the above preamble.
Cheeze_Pavilion said:
HyenaThePirate said:
TO be quite honest, none of us are here are as educated as we would like others to believe we are on political subjects.
I disagree.
Ok, you disagree. That does not mean that I am incorrect. If there is a professor or qualified expert on Politics present, by all means, please step forward and provide evidence of such expertise via a copy of your diploma, any published works, or resume of your work experience as a politician.
To be honest, reading a copy of Atlus Shrugged and watching Real Time with Bill Maher does not an "expert" make.
Cheeze_Pavilion said:
This is why I avoid these conversations because they always boil down to people fighting stubbornly over points that they heard someone far more informed than they ever could be say on some talk show somewhere.
They do? Many of my posts point to original sources--in this topic alone I pointed out how President Clinton used the phrase 'Welfare to Work' after Richard Nixon used the phrase 'Workfare, not Welfare' as both of them sought to reform welfare in a more conservative direction as a reason to support my contention that what we call the 'left' these days is really the 'center leaning left' and the 'right' is really the 'far right'.
That makes you an expert? I can quote all MANNER of things I've read on internet forums and in books. I could sit here all day and type out every line I considered "wise" from a Bill O'reilly book, but that doesn't mean I'd be some sort of super-Conservative forum hero. It just means I regurgitated what I read or heard elsewhere, and from my experience 90% of the people in forums on the internet employ that very tactic. The way things are going, I think about 10 actual people on the internet actually KNOW what they are talking about, and then every other 'internet expert' simply spreads that knowledge around claiming it as their own.
Not to say that that is you, of course, this isn't a personal attack. It is simply me stating that at the end of the day, only the READER can be the judge of who they want to believe knows whats REAL and who is blowing smoke up everyone's ass for "internet rep"
Cheeze_Pavilion said:
Essentially, politics is just like being a fanboy. Nobody ever changes their mind or truly tries to be open to new ideas, no one ever gives ground or concedes even in the face of sound logic.
That's exactly the kind of cynicism the Conservatives want.
Cynicism? No sir, thats called an OBSERVATION. It is also quantifiable... need proof? Read the previous 3 pages, or take a stroll over to youtube and read ANY section of comments under an Obama or Glenn Beck video.
Cheeze_Pavilion said:
Why? Well, it leads a person to say stuff like this:
Republicans aren't bad or monsters or morons. Fox News isn't the mouthpiece of evil. Reuters, MSNBC, and AL Jazeera aren't beacons of hope, nor are they leftist progressive institutions hell-bent on forcing everyone under the banner of socialism and one world government. Glenn Beck makes good points, and Obama has good ideas. They both also say stupid things.
...where those in the center or slightly to the left get compared with people who are so ridiculous you can't even describe them as the extreme right wing: calling someone an extremist implies they have a coherent ideology while Beck is a raving lunatic.
Interestingly enough, in your excitement to earn aforementioned "internet rep" by teaching me a "lesson" for having the audacity to a.) voice my opinion and b.) defend anything associated on the "right", you seemed to have completely missed the most important part of my statement:
MY POINT. You see, all I was doing in that statement was denouncing the modern day practice of villifying anyone or anyTHING we disagree with, whether it be socially, politically, or ideologically. You'll note that as I was pointing out that Fox News isn't a network of evil shadow-men trying to destroy the world via hate speak, I also pointed out that the very institutions the RIGHT loves to rail against are not the communist third reich terrorists haters of freedom that I often hear right-wing pundits claim they are. Instead, I advocated that both sides have good AND bad ideas. Which is probably the most truthfully honest statement made in this entire thread.
Cheeze_Pavilion said:
This is why I don't align myself with any specific group, whether it be for video game consoles, or Political parties... because the problem with GROUPS is that sooner or later you become beholden to the group.. you have to "go along to get along" with the group you've aligned yourself with, and eventually have to side with them no matter what reckless stupidity they endorse.
That's fine, but there's a difference between not aligning yourself with a group because you think they have bad tendencies, and not doing so because you think all groups are the same. One is perfectly capable of not aligning one's self with any group, and yet concluding that one group is more right than another.
Except for that little niggling thing about "arrogance" and "egotism" that I mentioned earlier. You can now add "Elitist" to that as well, because that essentially is what you'd be if you stood around not aligning yourself with any group but concluding openly that one group is more right than another.
Personally, I don't believe in "groups" being "more right than another"... i believe in IDEAS being more right than another idea. Groups are dangerous because eventually, you have to "go along to get along". When that happens, you are no longer an individual. You're a sheep that is part of a flock, and you're identity becomes intertwined and represented by that group.
Want an example? Just tell anyone you like Glen beck. You'll find that you would now be considered a right wing nutjob who hates blacks, europeans, and poor people.
It's just the way it is.
Cheeze_Pavilion said:
You know why Fox News and Obama Administration are at war?
Because our society is so jaded, bored, uninspired, self-indulgent, and starved for entertainment as well as attention, that us hapless morons allow ourselves to let these issues become important and distracting.
Meanwhile, the REAL decisions that will affect us in untold ways and that govern our LIVES are being made behind closed doors in secret meetings by people who don't care as much about whether they are "left" or "right" but just that they remain in POWER.
Sources? Evidence? Proof?
What sort of evidence would you like? All you have to do is surf the internet for a while, watch about an hour of Msnbc then about an hour of fox news, Listen to Bill Maher then listen to Dennis Miller for an hour and then find a forum and say "What do you think about Obama and Rush Limbaugh?" Read the resulting forum flame war to complete your research.
Meanwhile, while everyone was talking about Rush Limbaugh's failure to buy a FOOTBALL team (an act of discrimination that I personally find reprehensible) and Obama's failure to get the Olympics in CHicago, the Senate Finance Committee quietly approved the Health Care Reform Bill that NO American Citizen has even SEEN, let alone been asked if we agree with or approve.
We, the people, have been completely cut out of a process that is supposed to be governed BY the people.
But hey, who cares right? As long as Rush Limbaugh doesn't get that football team, and as long as those Acorn videos keep showing up, no need to pay attention to what OUR government is ACTUALLY doing.
Cheeze_Pavilion said:
I understand how cool it seems to take this kind of position, but don't confuse taking a position that you arrive at not through any sort of analysis of reality but only because it allows you to feel superior to those who do with having an actual position.
There is nothing "cool" about it. It's just my own perspective. One that apparently provoked you into an attempt to feel superior by responding to it in what can ONLY be described as an elitist fashion. Your comments smack of smugness and swagger, which I easily discerned with my keen observation skills, and that is the only reason why I responded.
You can reply if you'd like, and I'm sure you will, as you will probably take this as an affront to your honor, pick up the imaginary gauntlet that you perceive to have been thrown, and retaliate in a manner designed to humiliate me while at the same time restoring your image as the "super awesome smarter than everyone guy" on the forums, garnering tons of pats on the back from people who ostensibly don't KNOW any better.
Kudos for you. But for me, this is the end of the discussion, as nothing constructive will come of it beyond this part.
