War crimes: A quick hypothetical

[Toy Master Typhus]

Mor

What would be the point in having morals if you can ignore them when someone else does?
It's not like since a murder was once committed we should prance about murdering eachother, is it?

YES WE DO!. We hear about it all the time in the news when a person finds their boyfriends/girlfriend/spouse cheating and murder them. We see it in war when a soldier suffers enough stress they commit atrocities. Whether you help an old lady across the street or shoot up an elementary school on their first day you are still human and no amount of good deeds or sick crimes will make you better or worse.

Morals are about as important as titles and only have as much worth as the individual believes in them: You may call yourself a king and feel like a king but if you have no land or people to follow you you are no king.

 

[Ryotknife]

What would be the point in having morals if you can ignore them when someone else does?
It's not like since a murder was once committed we should prance about murdering eachother, is it?
No that's right, we've got prisons for those people.
Likeways, a couple of aliens who have no manners should not be able to convince us to lose ours.

what is the point of morals/honor/civility if it causes billions of people to be slaughtered needlessly?

there is a time and a place for those kinds of things, at least where countries are involved. That doesnt mean we should be immoral jerks all the time, throwing out morals should be as a last resort. If the decision is between acting morally or saving many lives, im sorry lives should win out. You can always re-evalute your morals or try to change yourself afterwards, but you cant bring back the dead.

It is the same thing as a person defending themselves and killing an attacker (even though killing is immoral), or a starving family stealing food.

 

[emmettr3]

Honestly, we'd need to try every dirty trick in the book to survive an alien invasion.
The military would know this, and given the chaos and bloodshed of a full-scale alien attack, there'd be nothing to stop them from breaking every rule they needed to. You wouldn't WANT to stop them from breaking every rule they needed to.
If they can find a way to make the Geneva conventions not apply to terrorists/insurgents/Cambodians/HAMAS/bad guy of the week, they can sure as heck make them inapplicable to freaking aliens.

 

[Thaluikhain]

errrrrr, I can't imagine them adhering to the Geneva convention, so I'd say no.

The same could have been said about Japan in WWII, should we have tortured Japaneese POWs?

Countries that sign the Geneva Convention must adhere to its rules. If a country isn't a part of said convention, but another is, the latter cannot break the laws against the former.

Er, as I understand it, the Geneva protocols only protects people who abide by it.

So, if your opponent doesn't, you don't have to abide by the Geneva protocols in regards to them, specifically. You still have to carry your arms openly, wear uniforms and stuff, because that's not against anyone in particular.

Now, it's important to remember that people who aren't protected by the Geneva protocols aren't "fair game", just those set of rules don't apply. They then fall under the other laws of the various countries involved.

So, in my country torturing prisoners is illegal, not because it's banned by the Geneva protocols, but because it's banned by my government anyway.

...

However, this leads to some legal oddities. It's not legal to use tear gas in military operations (though interpretations vary), it is legal to use them in various countries by, say, police forces, who are also allowed to use hollow point bullets.

There'd be a lot of careful looking at or amending the wording of various rules.

...

As an aside, this is something I personally am interested in, as it is important in regards to various sci-fi stuff.

 

[FalloutJack]

If an alien species that was at a similar technological level to us invaded, except this species has no concept of morality, and therefore believes that ANYTHING is permitted in a war, should we still hold to the Geneva convention and avoid enacting war crimes upon them?

Sadly, while the Vatican acknowledges alien beings as god's creations too, the Geneva Convention would stipulate that its policies do not currently cover extra-terrestrial forms of life. In short, there is no lawful protection for non-human intelligent life at this time.

 

[Thaluikhain]

If an alien species that was at a similar technological level to us invaded, except this species has no concept of morality, and therefore believes that ANYTHING is permitted in a war, should we still hold to the Geneva convention and avoid enacting war crimes upon them?

Sadly, while the Vatican acknowledges alien beings as god's creations too, the Geneva Convention would stipulate that its policies do not currently cover extra-terrestrial forms of life.

Er, where does it say that? The Geneva Conventions tend to use terms like "combatant", which could cover aliens.

 

[Froggy Slayer]

First off, how the hell did they get here if they are at our level?

As for rights, since they aren't recognizing civilians I say fuck em. Capet bomb their asses with napalm and chemical weapons.

Similar technological level. They have FTL transport craft and some fancy stuff, but nothing that they can use to just steamroller Earth.

 

[exessmirror]

i think nerve gas and nukes are fair game as long as they kill immediately. i dont get why they cant use teargas in military operation or even hollow point bullets.

 

[SckizoBoy]

What would be the point in having morals if you can ignore them when someone else does?
It's not like since a murder was once committed we should prance about murdering eachother, is it?
No that's right, we've got prisons for those people.
Likeways, a couple of aliens who have no manners should not be able to convince us to lose ours.

You're thinking of it too much as a human vs human-like scenario.

An alien race who has absolutely no compunction about wiping us off the face of the earth clearly does not adhere to the morals that make us human. Just as they would surely wonder 'why aren't these idiots busting their hump to kill us? a strange war they wage, unlike us civilised denizens' or words to that effect. Without an in depth sociological and psychological study/profile of the enemy at hand, understanding their morals is reduced to the simple fact that: they are willing to destroy us and spare no expense in doing so.

Therefore... no holds barred, everything's fair. The aliens view us as animals to be culled and don't look as though they're going to change their opinion any time soon... *shrug*

 

[wintercoat]

"Well, the entire human race was wiped out, but at least we stuck to our morals!"

Yeah, no, gas the fuckers.

 

[Elementary - Dear Watson]

To be honest, we could probably take them using conventional means... There are legal ways of disabling tech which are quick and easy...

Then again:

• 
  If they came here they are surpassing our technologies
  If they are on this planet then they can only have laser guided/direct fire weapons, as they will not have access to our satelites
  They have to some how land and establish bases/cover before being shelled to kingdom come
  This would probably be a scenario where the world would take part... USA, China and Russia teamed up.... Ouch!
  Militias and terrorists don't adhere to the Geneva and Hague conventions anyway!

 

[launchpadmcqwak]

I don't think we should suddenly get away from our own morals just because our enemy has none.
I mean just because you're fighting monsters doesn't mean you have to become worse than them.

Yes Sir...YO DOOKAY, BRING UP THE CHEMICAL NUKE NAPALM DEATH BOMBS!

 

[launchpadmcqwak]

I don't think we should suddenly get away from our own morals just because our enemy has none.
I mean just because you're fighting monsters doesn't mean you have to become worse than them.

Yes Sir...YO DOOKAY, BRING UP THE CHEMICAL NUKE NAPALM DEATH BOMBS!

DAMNIT THE QUOTE BUTTON HAS MOVED TO THE TOP OF THE NAME, my bad i was quoting someone else Brudda

 

[Froggy Slayer]

Some extra info; these aliens aren't trying to exterminate us, they instead want to break our spirit. They are desperate; their home planet is extremely overpopulated and invading ours and replacing us (except for a few downtrodden dregs, kept as a warning to any species stupid enough to mess with them) is their only hope for survival. They are therefore unwilling to use the most destructive WMD's such as nukes, as they want the planet to be relatively pristine. Before you say anything, the transport vessels have good point defence, so we cannot just know them out of the sky. They are also willing to use much nerve gas.

 

[Starik20X6]

anal probes

"Why does everyone always assume that? What am I doing, harvesting farts? How much can I learn from an ass?!" - Paul

While I think some of the rules might need to be bent/broken, I'd rather not go out of my way to be a bastard to them. You know, don't torture them or anything.

Honestly, I'd be more interested in figuring out how they got here while at a similar tech-level to us.

 

[Moth_Monk]

First of all, why would we be at war with them?

Secondly, if they have the technology to get here then humans would have as much hope beating them as an ant does beating me.

 

[Froggy Slayer]

First of all, why would we be at war with them?

Secondly, if they have the technology to get here then humans would have as much hope beating them as an ant does beating me.

I'm assuming that they're only about 100 years ahead of us, and that the FTL discovery was by chance. They're at war with us because their planet is overpopulated, and they're similar enough to us biologically that our planet is suitable for habitation, if not for all the FILTHY humans.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

Yeah, otherwise we end up having a feud with them and having to war with them for years. Look at all the times people have committed war crimes on Earth, gotten away with it and had a horrific relationship with them for years.

 

[Grant Stackhouse]

Some extra info; these aliens aren't trying to exterminate us, they instead want to break our spirit. They are desperate; their home planet is extremely overpopulated and invading ours and replacing us (except for a few downtrodden dregs, kept as a warning to any species stupid enough to mess with them) is their only hope for survival. They are therefore unwilling to use the most destructive WMD's such as nukes, as they want the planet to be relatively pristine. Before you say anything, the transport vessels have good point defence, so we cannot just know them out of the sky. They are also willing to use much nerve gas.

Crap, so now we not only stand the chance of being wiped out, but we also face the humiliation of being defeated by a society too stupid to control their own population and properly manage their own resources? Humanity could be forced to hand over the earth to creatures who will likely use it up and perpetuate their own desperation? Kill them all.

As far as human vs human warfare goes, I really don't understand the belief that civilians should be spared from slaughter. Victory comes from the complete depopulation of the enemy country. Anything less just gives them the chance to regain their strength and try again later. Just look at Rome and Carthage. If I recall correctly, they went to war three times. At the end of the third war, Rome starved the people of Carthage within their own walls, then kicked down the doors and burned every last citizen of Carthage, living or dead, in a great pile in the middle of the city. Carthage never attacked Rome again, because nobody was left alive to call themselves Carthaginian.

 

[Froggy Slayer]

Yeah, otherwise we end up having a feud with them and having to war with them for years. Look at all the times people have committed war crimes on Earth, gotten away with it and had a horrific relationship with them for years.

These aliens don't care about how we act to them. They want our planet and will not stop until they have it.