Warhammer 40k Imperial Guard vs Space Marines

[v3n0mat3]

Space Marines. As mentioned before, the Imperial Guard really have no means of defending themselves in an all-out assault vs the Space Marines. They simply are superior all the way down to their genes. And having space ship support brings the Space Marines at a, simply put, unfair disadvantage.

*EDIT*

Numbers keep popping up as an advantage to the IG. Ok, fine. They have that advantage. Is that REALLY an advantage? The technological superiority, the sheer power, strength, and, lets face it, awesomeness of the SM against insurmountable odds really makes me lean towards them. The IG can be epic at times, but, at that point where it would be IG v SM, the Empire of Man would turn their backs on the IG. Loyalty without question to the Emperor and all that.

*EDIT v2.0*

I realize that my avatar is a Necron, and Necron use... well, numbers to their advantage. My judgement still stands.

 

[Agayek]

The Ork snipers would win, of course. Always bet on the Ork snipers.

My first reaction:


My second reaction:

"Oh wait, you weren't actually serious"

/self-troll

 

[Thunderous Cacophony]

..you don't call on the Green Beret to say siege a town.

No, you call them to assassinate the mayor and blow up the supply depot. By constant use of disruption and irregular warfare an elite group could run circles around a big bloated army. The Space Marines would never just stand there and let themselves be overwhelmed. Titans and a trillion men are all well and good, but what happens when the transport ships are sabotaged, the plans intercepted, the lines of communication cut? The compact nature of the Space Marines is an asset against against a force as cumbersome as the I.G..

Those actions won't ever win you a war on their own though, at the end of the day you need to be able to take and hold territory lest you be forever at risk of becoming enveloped.

It all comes back to territory in the end. As kickass they would be on a tactical level, even in conquering entire systems, the Space Marines just don't have the numbers. I'm not even talking about a war of attrition; general consensus seems to be that there are about a million Space Marines. There just aren't enough of them to attack everywhere they would need to.

Let's assume that every system where the Marines are deployed or have a base joins with them, and the rest of the Imperium is IG (since they have regiments in basically every system), and that whoever is there gains control of the starships, factories, etc., and everywhere they are both deployed becomes a battleground. The Marines could cripple vast amounts of the IG-controlled Imperium, but there would still be entire subsectors that are behind the lines and producing the basic war materiel the IG needs: tanks, lasguns and warm bodies to operate them. The Marines could try and move from subsector to subsector, but given the travel times they would arrive in a new place and destroy it only to find that the where they just left has rebuilt.

Meanwhile, the Guard commanders know that there are very few places in the galaxy that are capable of supplying the Marines with new recruits and their specialized equipment. One million Marines could tie down BILLIONS of Imperial Guardsmen, and they would still be outflanked and have their (relatively) few supply bases destroyed.

Honestly, the only way that I could the Marines winning is if they went full Horus Hersey: spent decades building up troops and alliances, fomenting rebellion in loyalist areas, then launching a sneak attack against Terra and crucial bases like Cadia. They would doom themselves when Chaos forces ran rampant, then the Necrons showed up to reap souls, then the Orcs got pissy they weren't invited and hit hit everything they could reach, then the Tau showed up to conquer what's left, and then the Tyranids ate everything. Man, the whole universe is fucked six ways to Sunday.

 

[Malty Milk Whistle]

OK.
Space marines do NOT pilot ships.
They get bondsmen/serfs to do that for them.
You need roughly a thousand men to crew one of the lightest spacecraft, so assuming that the entire chapter decides to pilot this thing (If they even know how) as soon as they land, they either severely damage their capability(as someone would have to guard the ship) or leave it deserted for a few chimera's worth of guardsmen to sneak abord and blow the shit outa it.
So overall, guard.
But there's still to many unknown variables, such as the Adeptus Mechanicus and the titan legions.

Also, If this is all set on one huge Megaworld, and it's all on that, then Space Marine chapters like the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and other "RRRAAAAGH RUN AT THEM WITH SWORDS!" chapters will die like wheat, whereas any chapter that uses Hit'n Run tactics (Hint: There's only one or two) will last a bit longer, but will still die in the end.

Imagine you have a fist sized chunk of marble.
And now imagine you have a cliff of chalk.
No matter what, the small chunk of marble will be shattered first.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

So my buddy and I were debating who would win in a all out war. Who would win in a galactic war all the Imperial Guard or all of the Space Marines?

Depends on which version of each you're using.

If the forces involved are as depicted by Our Spiritual Liege, then the Space Marines would win easily, with absolutely no fatalities, since the single casualty would be interred in a Dreadnaught.

If we're using the Caiaphas Cain or Gaunt's Ghosts novels as base however (read: something moderately "realistic"), then it'd likely go to the Guard.

Believe it or not, the Imperial Guard is the single most effective military force in the 40k galaxy. Each individual guardsman is kinda pathetic in the grand scheme of things, but there's trillions upon trillions of them, with the logistical infrastructure to match. They can and will kill anything and everything in the galaxy in a straight 1v1 fight, over a long enough period of time.

Well they essentially are(minus any augmentations) but do a vastly specialised and different job. While the Marines are just a general kill shit and the SoB can be this too they tend to be a lot more used against Chaos.

Yes and no. The Sisters of Battle were originally conceived as the Ecclesiarchy's answer to a restriction that banned them from employing "men at arms". The short version is that one of the High Lords of Terra dicked over the entire Imperium and nobody wanted to see it happen again, so they banned the Ecclesiarchy from having a military force. They got around the ban by hiring women instead.

As part of being a member of the Ecclesiarchy (read: The Church), the Adepta Sororitas primary function is to suppress/find/destroy heretics. As a consequence, they almost exclusively are used against Chaos worshipers. They rarely, if ever, intentionally see battle against any of the Xenos.

They're also a lot less effective than Spehss Mehreenz, due to the lack of augmentations. They get power armor of a similar level, but that's about it.

Well that is what I meant by essentially but yes that is exactly what they are.

 

[Iwata]

In a full-blown war against the Imperium, the Astartes wouldn't stand a chance, They no longer have the power they had before the Heresy, which is kinda the point of the whole thing. On average, there are a thousand chapters of a thousand marines each. This, of course, varies a lot as chapters are founded or destroyed, but on average, a million marines, with no support from anyone else and relying only on their limited supply and support chains, will get trounced by the Imperium's war machine.

The Imperium has billions of men, and billions more to call on reserve, whereas marines take decades to replace losses. The Imperial fleet will make short work of any Astartes fleet, which is basicaly just a way to get from point A to point B, and really small in size. Not to mention the Imperium can also use other agencies like the Inquisition, Assassins, Titan Legions, etc.

So, yeah. Being super human and all is pretty nifty, but you can't fight a whole galaxy.

P.S.- I've played Blood Angels since 2nd ed., so I have no bias here.

 

[Steeltrap]

The war would be the IG and the navy vs all the Space Marines. The other parties in the Imperium are up for grabs for whoever can claim or persuade them to join their side.

 

[TimeLord]

..you don't call on the Green Beret to say siege a town.

No, you call them to assassinate the mayor and blow up the supply depot. By constant use of disruption and irregular warfare an elite group could run circles around a big bloated army. The Space Marines would never just stand there and let themselves be overwhelmed. Titans and a trillion men are all well and good, but what happens when the transport ships are sabotaged, the plans intercepted, the lines of communication cut? The compact nature of the Space Marines is an asset against against a force as cumbersome as the I.G..

The Space Marines are too arrogant to use -camouflage-. Actual guerrilla warfare is "beneath" them.

Incorrect. See the Raven Guard and especially the Alpha Legion pre-Heresy.

 

[warrcry13]

Space Marines would win. See, the only reason space marines are weak in anyway, is because they are so spread out. If you were to get all of the Space Marines in one location, they would win every war against any race or force. They have the best gear, arguably the most powerful weapons, and the most conviction. After the first 30 minutes of combat, the entirety of the Imperial Guard army would be running away while screaming for their mothers.

You have completely forgot about the Death Korps of Krieg haven't you? No way would the Space Break their morale.....It's impossible. Even Necrons can't make Death Korps break.

Don't forget Cadians either. THey are used to fighting much worse than space marines. You also have the Catachans. That's just to name a few. Then you got Baneblades, armor companies and other mechanized vehicles.

 

[TimeLord]

..you don't call on the Green Beret to say siege a town.

No, you call them to assassinate the mayor and blow up the supply depot. By constant use of disruption and irregular warfare an elite group could run circles around a big bloated army. The Space Marines would never just stand there and let themselves be overwhelmed. Titans and a trillion men are all well and good, but what happens when the transport ships are sabotaged, the plans intercepted, the lines of communication cut? The compact nature of the Space Marines is an asset against against a force as cumbersome as the I.G..

Those actions won't ever win you a war on their own though, at the end of the day you need to be able to take and hold territory lest you be forever at risk of becoming enveloped.

Also it should be noted that only a single Space Marine chapter, Raven Guard, fights like how you mention. Unconventional tactics and guerrilla warfare are viewed as beneath most space marines, some like the Black Templars don't even have scouts.

I'd contest that the Alpha Legion, especially pre-Heresy, would count too. They excelled at covert ops and all the sneaky stuff that got Roboute Guilliman looking down his nose at them. It's too bad Alpharius and Omegon weren't on the opposite side of the Galaxy with Corax and Curze as they would have gotten along famously with the Raven Guard and Night Lords. Instead they were stuck with the staunch Imperial Fists and Ultramarines.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

The Space Marines conquered the galaxy once, they only needed the Imperial Army to hold it for them. The Space Marines could conquer the galaxy twice, but then who would hold it for them after they've killed all of the Imperial Guard?

 

[warrcry13]

Imperial guard would win hands down no questuions I don't fucking care how kick ass the space marines are. Step one. Surround and planatary bombard into oblivion every space marin planet, space station and fortress. Mop up survivors.

You can;'t beat that, The mary sue fanboys can shut up about how awesome the marines are. I don't give a fuck how great the Space Wolves are, a imperial fleet destroys Fenris completely. How awesome would the Ultramarines be if Maccragge gets cyclonic bombarded for a few weeks. None of the space marine chapters have strong fleets. All the fleets are the Imperial navy (which would fall under the guard as Imperium forces. Ditto for the Sister of Battle, the Adeptus mechanuicus and the Inquisiton.... On and the Navigators. You know the ones who drive the fucking ships? I think they'd fall under the Imperial Guard as well.

The space marines are powerful beyond belief but they can't stand up to something as vast as the Imperium.

Now if you wanna start saying the IG don't get the navy and all that, changes things. But the general dividing line in the fluff is Space marines and everything else.

(Granted the Gray Knights, and the Adeptus Custodes (sp) the Emperor's guards are kinda on the fence)

Step #1: Remember that the Imperial Navy is not apart of the Imperial Guard.

Step #2: Remember that the Navis Nobilite are not apart of the Imperial Guard.

Step #3: Remember that the Adeptus Mechanicus is not apart of the Imperial Guard.

Step #4: Remember that the fight is between the Space Marines and the Imperial GUARD and not the rest of the forces of the Imperium.

This is what makes the entire concept sketchy at best. Who supplies these forces? Where do the other forces of the Imperium stand on this? What's going on with all the xenos and heretics while this is all going down? What time period is this all taking place in!? Too many variables not accounted for.

Well when we take that into considertion the fight would never happen. Mainly because no one can travel the warp without a Navigator not even the Space Marines. They have no way of sending messages without an Astropath either.

How weird captcha is common law

 

[fish iron4]

Clone Troopers would kick both their asses.

This made me laugh, have you even seen the slightest bit of 40k?

 

[kouriichi]

Space Marines would win. See, the only reason space marines are weak in anyway, is because they are so spread out. If you were to get all of the Space Marines in one location, they would win every war against any race or force. They have the best gear, arguably the most powerful weapons, and the most conviction. After the first 30 minutes of combat, the entirety of the Imperial Guard army would be running away while screaming for their mothers.

You have completely forgot about the Death Korps of Krieg haven't you? No way would the Space Break their morale.....It's impossible. Even Necrons can't make Death Korps break.

Don't forget Cadians either. THey are used to fighting much worse than space marines. You also have the Catachans. That's just to name a few. Then you got Baneblades, armor companies and other mechanized vehicles.

No, i know they exist. Its just that, you have their Space Marine counterparts that are equally as scary. The Black Templar who are more fanatical then any other legion, and fight only in melee combat, and then the Salamanders, who specialize in flame weaponry and have mastercrafted everything, then theres the Blood Angels who can cannot stop from getting close range, going into a blood lust and chain swording everything within 3 miles into a fine paste.

In the end, Space Marines are the most devastating army out there, tech wise, armor wise, and conviction wise. Every Space Marine will fight to the death. A large portion of the IG would throw their weapons to the ground and beg for the emperors mercy at the mere sight of an angry space marine. I mean, we can go by Lore, or by Board rules. Board rules, yes the IG would probably win just be overwhelming numbers, and sheer luck of the dice. But lore wise, it would be in the Space Marines favor every fight. The sight of everyone you served with exploding into red mist because of bolter rounds is enough to break the will of most IG soldiers.

It would be one of the better match ups in my opinion, but i think the Spehss Mahreenz would win. Their weapons are just..... to devastating in comparison. Even vehicle wise, the Space Marines are roughly equal. Were talking about moving lascannons with a chunk of steel and heavy bolters attached to them.

But then again, your talking to a Nurgle fan who thinks both armies would be crushed by Papa Nurgles Sweet embrace <3

 

[fish iron4]

Well in Dawn of War 1 the imperial guardsman get demoralised so easily they would just get roflstomped by the Space Marines who can just rally and get their morale back.

Uhm this is 40k lore, the games have it entirely wrong, as many computers cant handle a million guardsmen all at once.

 

[HellsingerAngel]

Well when we take that into considertion the fight would never happen. Mainly because no one can travel the warp without a Navigator not even the Space Marines. They have no way of sending messages without an Astropath either.

How weird captcha is common law

Librarians are able to pilot a vessel in a pinch, just not as well as a navigator.

 

[Smeatza]

While the imperial guard are impressive in the fact they're only human I think they're generally being over-estimated.
Still as far as I can tell there arn't any estimates for total number of space marines so whether you can say the SM would be sufficiently outnumbered I don't know.
If I try to include any of the other forces things get messy.

It's all heresey in my eyes anyway. All Imperial Guardsmen and Space Marines alike should be fighting on the side of the god-emperor, beloved by all.

 

[DirtyJunkieScum]

Incorrect. See the Raven Guard and especially the Alpha Legion pre-Heresy.

Hey! Don't forget the Reasonable Marines!

 

[Hiname]

Two full pages and no one has yet posted this? Oh geez.

But, let's behonest here...
Yes, the Imperials are many, many, MAAAAANY times more then the Mariens. (Do we count the Sisters of Battle here, too?)
So what? The Space Marines have the Inquisition fleet.

"Oh look, another imperial planet revolts. Well sucks to be them, lets NUKE IT OUT OF ORBIT AND THE WHOLE DAMN SYSTEM WITH IT."
Numbers mean nothing if your enemy can exterminate an entire sector.