Warhammer 40k vs starwars... is there any possible way for SW to win?
- Thread starter Zeke the Freak
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40K has fucking GODS. Even if chaos does lose to SW in some totally statistical crew-up... Khorne cares not from where blood flows.
Exterminatus.CoziestPigeon said:
This happens on a near regular basis in the 40k universe, I might add.
That, and Chaos have a warship that is actually called 'Planet Killer' that does exactly what it says on the tin (now, I may be wrong about this bit, but I believe it is - or at least was - the warship of Abaddon the Despoiler).
Two comments.KXZ501 said:
I'm not sure what you consider a regular basis as far as Exterminatus is concerned.
Secondly: I really don't understand why people think Exterminatus destroys planets. The whole point of it is to Exterminate things. It kills and destroys that which the ground troops lack the ability to harm but is nowhere near planet destroying. While obviously weakened for game balance its worth bearing in mind that the Exterminatus strikes available to Daemonhunters are no larger than standard ordinance blasts or that the Planet Killer is feared specifically because it can kill planets.
Yes, Exterminatus can reduce "the surface of [a] world to drifting ash, the atmosphere seared away", but even that's been shown to fail to kill living beings.
When Kryptman ordered his galactic cordon in the face of Hive Fleet Leviathan planets were "razed to the ground", not destroyed. If its so easy to destroy a planet in the 40K universe then wouldn't that have been so much more efficient?
The death star can fire once per...i dno, 2 mins? That's more then enough time for any 40K ship to blast it back into shrapnel.
With AT-ATs, just send in a dreadnaught and the dreadnaught will smack it down. A killacan (spelling?) would probably do a better job cos it'd just cut it down to size and a Wraithlord'd just blow it to pieces.
With the Sith and Jedi, any Chaos Sourceror (spelling?) would just munch them down and a farseer would probably just look at them for a few seconds while their opponant turns into mush from 1 of countless attacks that are far more powerful then the force. Throw in a Nightbringer or the Avatar and watch the Sith or Jedi crumble.
I'm not that big on either universe, but from what I've seen from movies, games and spin-off books and comics, Star Wars would be a good opponant, but 40K would win.
Plus, leave it long enough and the Warp would take Star Wars, or the 'nids would overrun them.
With AT-ATs, just send in a dreadnaught and the dreadnaught will smack it down. A killacan (spelling?) would probably do a better job cos it'd just cut it down to size and a Wraithlord'd just blow it to pieces.
With the Sith and Jedi, any Chaos Sourceror (spelling?) would just munch them down and a farseer would probably just look at them for a few seconds while their opponant turns into mush from 1 of countless attacks that are far more powerful then the force. Throw in a Nightbringer or the Avatar and watch the Sith or Jedi crumble.
I'm not that big on either universe, but from what I've seen from movies, games and spin-off books and comics, Star Wars would be a good opponant, but 40K would win.
Plus, leave it long enough and the Warp would take Star Wars, or the 'nids would overrun them.
Wait wait wait.Cortheya said:Internet Kraken said:
NOTHING like that in star wars
EDIT: ok the image won't upload help needed....(insert AT AT image here)
Edit 2: someone said that a race could wipe out all life on a planet.. Nihilus could do that and don't say he's weak because the only reason he got killed was because the Exile was also a wound in the force very similar to Nihilus
I didn't realise we were bringing the Old Republic into this.
It's a lot more even now.
But y'know, AT-AT vs a Necron Monolith?
Wookies vs Orks?
The Empire vs the Imperium?
Funnily enough one of my favorite games is W40K DoW: Dark Crusade. Another is SW: KotOR.
Well the concepts are too differant to really work.
Star Wars has two major advantages. One they don't need to traverse the warp to get from place to place, having a true "FTL" drive. Secondly they have FTL communications that don't require insane telepathic relays that risk letting demons and such go whenever they do anything.
Warhammer 40k's imperium's lack of easy space travel and reliable communications being a major factor in the whole concept, nobody even knows how big The Imperium actually is for that reason.
Warhammer 40k has also lost a lot of it's tech, and has serious problems with manufacturing their best stuff. There ARE manufacturing planets out there, but noone knows where they all are and in one sector people might think a technology no longer exists (lost for all time) where 10 sectors away that technology is being manufactured. The two groups never coming into contact/communication with each other.
Star Wars on the other hand has a ton of manufacturing and such, and what's more can communicate and distribute their stuff.
Now yes, Jedi and such are rare enough where I don't think they would be that huge a factor (and WH 40k has a lot more really wild/special stuff like psionic inquisitors and the like on greater numbers), but WH 40k is going to get pounded logistically. I mean in comparison Star Wars would just keep coming, and coming, and could coordinate their attacks on a level that 40k just couldn't.
Star Wars could probably outnumber the Imperium's ships like forty to one and replace their losses a lot more easily. Besides I think ship-to-ship the big cruisers and such would do okay. As long as they didn't engage en-masse on the ground they would be fine. But then again Droid armies are a viable possibility and I mean even if some Space Marine takes out 50-100 of those things they can always make more, while the marine is not easily replacable.
Star Wars ground Pounders vs. Imperial Guard would probably be fairly even though.
But basically while it would never work, simply because the central concepts on space travel and how the universe works is so differant, if somehow it DID happen Star Wars wins through simple attrition if nothing else. Star Wars having a more straightforward approach to space travel, and it's differant concepts allowing it to walk all over what WH 40k would have.
Talking about victory through communications and logistics doesn't sound very exciting, but that is what it all comes down to. Wars can be easily won through such things. Not to mention the abillity to outproduce the enemy. It's not that Star Wars is a manufacturing powerhouse, it's that the Imperium is a bloody mess. The Imperium might even be able to outproduce Star Wars in absolute terms, but lacks any abillity to put it to use in a large scale conflict. However I honestly don't think the Imperium could outproduce them, given the horrible failing technologies, sheer rate of worker mortality, and the fact that few people (if anyone) understands how those machines work. Destroy a Star Wars Factory they will make another one, destroy a WH 40k factory, chances are nobody knows how to make another one, and even if someone did getting those people to one place with the right materials would be a herculean effort to say the least.
Star Wars has two major advantages. One they don't need to traverse the warp to get from place to place, having a true "FTL" drive. Secondly they have FTL communications that don't require insane telepathic relays that risk letting demons and such go whenever they do anything.
Warhammer 40k's imperium's lack of easy space travel and reliable communications being a major factor in the whole concept, nobody even knows how big The Imperium actually is for that reason.
Warhammer 40k has also lost a lot of it's tech, and has serious problems with manufacturing their best stuff. There ARE manufacturing planets out there, but noone knows where they all are and in one sector people might think a technology no longer exists (lost for all time) where 10 sectors away that technology is being manufactured. The two groups never coming into contact/communication with each other.
Star Wars on the other hand has a ton of manufacturing and such, and what's more can communicate and distribute their stuff.
Now yes, Jedi and such are rare enough where I don't think they would be that huge a factor (and WH 40k has a lot more really wild/special stuff like psionic inquisitors and the like on greater numbers), but WH 40k is going to get pounded logistically. I mean in comparison Star Wars would just keep coming, and coming, and could coordinate their attacks on a level that 40k just couldn't.
Star Wars could probably outnumber the Imperium's ships like forty to one and replace their losses a lot more easily. Besides I think ship-to-ship the big cruisers and such would do okay. As long as they didn't engage en-masse on the ground they would be fine. But then again Droid armies are a viable possibility and I mean even if some Space Marine takes out 50-100 of those things they can always make more, while the marine is not easily replacable.
Star Wars ground Pounders vs. Imperial Guard would probably be fairly even though.
But basically while it would never work, simply because the central concepts on space travel and how the universe works is so differant, if somehow it DID happen Star Wars wins through simple attrition if nothing else. Star Wars having a more straightforward approach to space travel, and it's differant concepts allowing it to walk all over what WH 40k would have.
Talking about victory through communications and logistics doesn't sound very exciting, but that is what it all comes down to. Wars can be easily won through such things. Not to mention the abillity to outproduce the enemy. It's not that Star Wars is a manufacturing powerhouse, it's that the Imperium is a bloody mess. The Imperium might even be able to outproduce Star Wars in absolute terms, but lacks any abillity to put it to use in a large scale conflict. However I honestly don't think the Imperium could outproduce them, given the horrible failing technologies, sheer rate of worker mortality, and the fact that few people (if anyone) understands how those machines work. Destroy a Star Wars Factory they will make another one, destroy a WH 40k factory, chances are nobody knows how to make another one, and even if someone did getting those people to one place with the right materials would be a herculean effort to say the least.
I'll talk mainly about ground combat, because I don't really know enough of the specifics of the space combat to debate accurately in that area. Although, I get the impression that the average Space Marine Destroyer-class (whatever that may be) could probably wipe clean a planet anyway.
Anyway, now for a step by step analysis. I'll be comparing a storm trooper and a space marine.
Base stock:
Star Wars: A clone of a fairly able warrior who has been genetically engineered and trained from birth. As clones, they would probably be able to work together as a team like no other army could.
Warhammer: Your average space marine was already a hero in their own right, before they were inducted, in a process where they are rediculously over-amped, giving them super-human speed, strength, perception, etc. Only about the stronger half of inductees even survive their training.
Armour:
Star Wars: By all evidence, the basic storm trooper armour provides almost no protection. It may suffice to keep the wearer alive from ordinance (explosions going off near them), but otherwise is of little value. Aside from looking cool. And also perhaps some sensory equipment which may help.
Warhammer: A space marine is a walking tank. Also, from what I've heard, the armour is powered and hooked directly into the brain so that it in fact increases movement speed, as well as strength, etc.
Weaponry:
Star Wars: Let us be extremely charitable and assume that if a clone trooper managed to hit a space marine in the torso or head, it would kill them. Which may be fair enough, given it seems to be enough to kill a robot - and they're made of metal. Although, probably not metal anywhere near as thick as what the space marines wear, but still, as I said, I'm being extremely charitable.
Warhammer: A bolter is essentially an automatic weapon firing 100 caliber (or possibly larger) high explosive rounds. If it hits a storm trooper - anywhere - they're going to die.
Scale:
I'm not sure, but I get the impression that the entire imperial clone army might in fact be smaller than one of the larger space marine chapters. And there are a lot of space marine chapters.
So, uh, yeah, storm troopers would get screwed over. Although, I could imagine that the average clone trooper would be noticeably better than an imperial guardsman. But then again, there are way more imperial guardsmen then there are space marines, so...
Also, as cool as Jedi are, I mean, how on earth would one use a lightsabre to block a bolter shell? Also, they're rather low on numbers...
General rant:
Technologically, one might argue that star wars may not be quite as advanced as warhammer 40k, but that they aren't as stagnant. Well, if you ignore KOTOR, which says that 4000 years ago their technology was essentially EXACTLY THE SAME. Nonetheless, I generally get the impression that the Star Wars universe is much more open to progress than the Warhammer universe. Because in the Warhammer universe, progress is generally synonymous with heresy.
So, perhaps give the Star Wars universe 10 000 years, and they might be on better footing with the Warhammer (now 50k) universe. Because in the Warhammer universe, almost nothing ever changes. You know, unless the Star Wars people decide to use that time to have another 3 major governmental collapses or whatever...
Anyway, now for a step by step analysis. I'll be comparing a storm trooper and a space marine.
Base stock:
Star Wars: A clone of a fairly able warrior who has been genetically engineered and trained from birth. As clones, they would probably be able to work together as a team like no other army could.
Warhammer: Your average space marine was already a hero in their own right, before they were inducted, in a process where they are rediculously over-amped, giving them super-human speed, strength, perception, etc. Only about the stronger half of inductees even survive their training.
Armour:
Star Wars: By all evidence, the basic storm trooper armour provides almost no protection. It may suffice to keep the wearer alive from ordinance (explosions going off near them), but otherwise is of little value. Aside from looking cool. And also perhaps some sensory equipment which may help.
Warhammer: A space marine is a walking tank. Also, from what I've heard, the armour is powered and hooked directly into the brain so that it in fact increases movement speed, as well as strength, etc.
Weaponry:
Star Wars: Let us be extremely charitable and assume that if a clone trooper managed to hit a space marine in the torso or head, it would kill them. Which may be fair enough, given it seems to be enough to kill a robot - and they're made of metal. Although, probably not metal anywhere near as thick as what the space marines wear, but still, as I said, I'm being extremely charitable.
Warhammer: A bolter is essentially an automatic weapon firing 100 caliber (or possibly larger) high explosive rounds. If it hits a storm trooper - anywhere - they're going to die.
Scale:
I'm not sure, but I get the impression that the entire imperial clone army might in fact be smaller than one of the larger space marine chapters. And there are a lot of space marine chapters.
So, uh, yeah, storm troopers would get screwed over. Although, I could imagine that the average clone trooper would be noticeably better than an imperial guardsman. But then again, there are way more imperial guardsmen then there are space marines, so...
Also, as cool as Jedi are, I mean, how on earth would one use a lightsabre to block a bolter shell? Also, they're rather low on numbers...
General rant:
Technologically, one might argue that star wars may not be quite as advanced as warhammer 40k, but that they aren't as stagnant. Well, if you ignore KOTOR, which says that 4000 years ago their technology was essentially EXACTLY THE SAME. Nonetheless, I generally get the impression that the Star Wars universe is much more open to progress than the Warhammer universe. Because in the Warhammer universe, progress is generally synonymous with heresy.
So, perhaps give the Star Wars universe 10 000 years, and they might be on better footing with the Warhammer (now 50k) universe. Because in the Warhammer universe, almost nothing ever changes. You know, unless the Star Wars people decide to use that time to have another 3 major governmental collapses or whatever...
You can't go by the EU on some things, and ignore it with others, anyway, A few points, though I admittedly don't know much about the warhammer 40K universe.loquerion said:
The Yuuzhan Vong Ravaged and destroyed a galaxy, They'd be a huge threat to anything in the 40K universe. A fleet capitol ships can reduce a planet's surface to molten slag with bombardment, And things with th scale you're talking about are bound to have weak points, Thrawn would manage to find a effective strategy.
Also, I may be wrong, but was Sadow naga able to literally destroy a sun with the force? I know later luke was ab;e to rip apart starfighters in dogfights and even damage capitol ships.
One thing I do know, Jedi and Sith masters are able to, though draining, take control of thousands of minds at once, even throttle enemy commanders hundreds of miles away in their command ships. If it happened during the Sith wars, and they banded together, they'd have thousands of jedi fighting back, With production backup from the star forge, and abilities like battle meditation, I think the SW universe would give a much harder fight than you think. Brute strength isn't everything.
If you apply 40k's narrative logic, then the Star-Wars guys are all small-timers with a laughable lack of will and an insufficient industrial base to engage the Eldar or the Tyranids or the Imperium, so they're powerless to prevent the holocaust that will rain down upon them. But that's forcing 40k's paradigm onto Star Wars.Zeke the Freak said:
If you apply Star Wars narrative logic, then the 40k guys are all faceless jack-booted morons and their numbers or access to world-devastating super weapons are irrelevant because, like the various faceless jack-booted morons in Star Wars itself, they'll be brought down by plucky heroics and personal sacrifice -- not the personal sacrifice of a brainwashed zealot but the personal sacrifice of someone who's actually devoted to a higher, truer universal good. But that's forcing SW's paradigm onto 40k.
If you apply real-world logic, both universes are loaded with layers and layers of fantasy bullshit so it's really a pissing contest between high-spirited pulp adventure and grimdark war pulp, and quoting numbers that some guy pulled out of his ass to justify why space combat happens to look like World War II dogfighting crossed with an 18th-century naval battle isn't going to change all that.
-- Alex
Yes, a very simple one. Star Wars ships don't rely on Warp travel. All you need to do is have your fleet sighted by a 40K segmentum fleet, jump to hyperspace, and watch them all try to Warp after you and open a new Eye of Terror.Zeke the Freak said:
PS: IG owns all.
I started playing 40K over a decade ago. Now 100s of models, scenery and books have taken over a room in my house.CountFenring said:
Lightsaber == C'Tan Phase sword (necron) cut thru anything inc invuerable saves.
deathstar == Space Hulk (orc, tyranid) see Armegedon space ship combat rules.
Empire of SW == Imperial Guard (vast numbers of 'low tech' cannon fodder)
power swords warships ??? first thing that come sto mind for me i think a power sword could lightsaberCountFenring said: