Well... here we go. Obscenity in Manga trial.

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The Wooster

King Snap
Jul 15, 2008
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While I'm a huge manga fan and I've read more than my fair share of horrific hentai I'm perfectly willing to admit that not only is a large portion of the medium complete dross there's quite a few elements that don't appeal even to hardcore sexual deviants such as myself.
Now it seems manga containing those elements has finally fallen into the hands of someone with a badge and, rather than just bitching about it on the Internet like I would have done, they're trying to put, Christopher Handley of Iowa, the guy who bought it, away for twenty goddamn years.
Carl Horn, manga editor for Dark Horse Comics waxes lyrical about the subject here [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2008-12-11/christopher-handley/carl-horn]. He makes a few good points but he stays away from addressing the specifics of the case (perhaps because of a legal obligation to do so) instead choosing just to ratchet up the outrage to eleven. Following a few of the links in the article I still couldn't find exactly which manga Mr Handley is supposed to have ordered. In fact, now that I think about it, Mr Horn doesn't as much avoid the subject as much as swerve around it at high speed.

Some of these manga contain images that are supposedly, according to the prosecutor, "obscene." But we'll put aside what kind of images they are claimed to be for the moment, because that isn't being decided anywhere but in this court case. And although we can debate it, there's no practical point in doing so here, because debating their content on ANN won't, and can't affect the outcome.
However a few links on I found the law brought into question was the following.

section 504 of the PROTECT Act to prohibit distribution or possession of "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture
, or painting," that

(1)(A) depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and

(B) is obscene; or

(2)(A) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and

(B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;

Ah... child pornography.

While the Mr Handley's lawyers managed to get the second and third parts of that law ruled unconstitutional this still gives us an idea of why Mr Handley is facing this predicament.

I appreciate the idea that if we let other people decide what is 'obscene' rather than choosing for ourselves we're starting down a slippery slope and I'm generally against censorship in all of it's forms. It's childporn. Yes, I appreciate no actual children were harmed in the creation of a manga and that allowing people to deem a collection of lines and scribbles 'obscene' could destroy art as we know it. On the other hand it's child porn.

I'm honestly unsure where I stand on this. I've read books and seen movies that handle child abuse in a very graphic manner and I wouldn't call myself a criminal for owning them. (For example I've seen far too many movies where Kevin Bacon molests children. Worrying) On the other hand, sexual attention towards children is, in my opinion, morally wrong and while I appreciate the pragmatist's argument that while people are (ugh) using media with that kind of content they're not actually out doing the deed I still think reinforcing that behavior or normalizing it by producing products designed to cater to people with these kind of urges is an equally slippery slope to that of excess censorship.

I can't help think that for all their shrieking about censorship and fascism the manga community is very hesitant to address the issue directly. Even the term used, Loli, Lolicon and it's variants have always been a sugar coated way of refering to pornography that depicts minors, sometimes horendously young minors, engaging in sexual activity.

One thing I can agree on though is that 20 year is insane. My girlfriend pointed out that people get less for actually raping someone. Madness.

ANN member Vashfanatic is a bastion of common sense in a sea of idiocy. While everyone around him is shrieking about freedom of speech he says the following.

There are two equally bad ideas at work here coming from both sides of the issue. The first is that if you read something with violence, rape, etc. you're more likely to go out and actually do it. If that were the case, given the kind of violent material I read and watch, I'd have a large body count to my name. Sometimes this stuff is the escape valve you need for inappropriate feelings.

The other flaw is that somehow depiction of children being raped is perfectly all right so long as it's just illustrations. While I don't think that Mr. Horn is likely to go out and be a child predator simply as a result of reading it, there's an issue here of what he's using it for. Is it for the storyline? Or is he whacking off? To me, that's what defined porn, not "obscenity."

The problem, of course, is that the government can't determine what he's using it for, whether it effects his views on children, or any of the complex inner workings of the human mind. Hence fairly legislating the issue is nigh impossible. Obscenity and pornography laws are notoriously vague, functioning on the "I know it when I see it" principle (and perhaps most of us do know when we see it, but it makes for bad law). At the same time, more specific rules about depiction of genitalia and pubic hair (as they have in Japan) can be just as ridiculous as artists find loopholes to get around them.
 

Johnn Johnston

New member
May 4, 2008
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I fail to see how a drawing is child porn. It is, as Shakespeare put it, 'fucking wrong', but no actual kiddies are involved.
 

Nimbus

Token Irish Guy
Oct 22, 2008
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Meh. I live by a "whatever floats your boat" philosophy. So long as no child was harmed in the making of the hentai, I see no reason he shouldn't be allowed to do whatever he wants with it, legally speaking. Seriously, the government should not be allowed to decide what is "right".
 

Sennz0r

New member
May 25, 2008
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Well a lot of hentai is indeed sickening to the core. How people can watch tentacles fornicate is beyond me.

However everyone has the right to like what they like. I mean there's also furries, right?

...just don't try to pull me into those things.
 

Balgus

New member
Jul 15, 2008
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so... if i draw a slightly smaller stick figure sucking off a taller stick figure i will get 20 years if i distribute it, and not just me anyone who buys it?

it's a work of fiction, ill admit that if it has only a sexual purpose then he should get a slap on the wrist (its a feking cartoon not real pictures).
 

sheic99

New member
Oct 15, 2008
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Hankage said:
sheic99 said:
How old is the child that is in question?
...and can we see some pictures?

Just so we can judge for ourselvres.




(You're not falling for this, are you?)
I was just asking because if the child in question is over 16, they have a better case.
 

NewClassic_v1legacy

Bringer of Words
Jul 30, 2008
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Well, is this about the philosophy, or the law?

By law, Mr. Handley is guilty, and should be punished.
By common sense, 20 years is an unnecessarily long amount, and should not be held in any professional corrections institution for any such period of time. If anything, I'm surprised this is even going to court at all. Considering it's such a gray area of the law, they should just refine the law to be more clear, and give Mr. Handley a slap on the wrist.

By philosophy, child pornography is icky, regardless of meat world, art world, or digital world. Regardless of that, though, I'd still say both lawyers are so busy trying to slap the other to death with the letter of the law, they're forgetting the intent.

If I were Judge Judy and Executioner, I would place Mr. Handley on probation for a couple of months, or make him serve, oh, 20 hours of community service. Anything else just seems overly elaborate and silly.
 

Grampy_bone

New member
Mar 12, 2008
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While I agree that japanese manga porn lies well into Squick territory, prosecuting someone for looking at naughty drawings sets a bad precedent. 'Moral Guardian' types don't need any more ammunition in their Censorship Quests than they already have.
 

Beowulf DW

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Jul 12, 2008
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The specifics of the case need to be known. Are we talking about a few risky scenes? Or an entire series filled with 12-year-olds being raped? We can't start effective discussion about this until we know where the battle-lines have drawn.

And why does one guy take the fall for it? Why not the artist? Or the publisher? Or the distributer? Or the censors who let it get by them? If you're able to buy something through ordinary means, you have the right to assume that it's legal.
 

PedroSteckecilo

Mexican Fugitive
Feb 7, 2008
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I say let the Functional Pedophiles have their Drawn smut, it's not hurting anybody and neither are they.

Some sexual fetishes are incurable psychological conditions, similar to Homosexuality, it's not a disease, it's a part of their psyche. If they're not actively looking to harm people by either the consumption of the exploitative and harmful real stuff, or you know, actively engaging in said horrific activities, then some of them are being judged and persecuted for something they can't control.

This is America though, it's not like they care about anything like that...