Well... here we go. Obscenity in Manga trial.
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This is a slippery slope fallacy.TheNecroswanson said:
The issue here is that no real harm has yet been done. Whatever your view of drawings of children engaging in sex acts, there are no actual children being harmed, and legislation based on a potential future behaviour (when there is no causal link established) amounts to the creation of thoughtcrime.
It has to do with the nature of harm, in the real deal, someone is harmed, hurt and damaged in a physical and psychological manner. It's repellent and horrific, but a drawing is just a fantasy, it is NOT REAL, nobody is hurt. People who defend violent videogames as "just fantasy" should be familiar with the arguement.TheNecroswanson said:
Only people with a problem telling fantasy from reality are likely to take these things too far.
Sorry Khell, you lost me there. Wether or not pedophilia is genetic, a result of someones childhood, or even self created is a highly debatable topic. Fine, you feel one way about it, but that doesn't change that we don't fully understand the causes of these things. Addittionally, most people don't care about the cause.Khell_Sennet said:
I understand that the "age of consent for a minor" is an arbitrary boundary line set by society however Society has set it. To even entertain the notion of crossing that line clearly sets you in opposition to our society. It almost like a social form of treason. You can argue legal continuity till you're blue in the face but the protection of societies' young is a topic which inspires warranted yet irrational action.
Even if we knew for a fact that some people are just born pedophiles and it's not their fault, it still doesn't erase the danger they pose. Hell, if we could isolate the genetic cause and be 100% certain of somone being a pedophile via genetics, I wouldn't even mind executing them just to keep society safe. I say that, knowing full well the illegality and inherent problems with that idea (slipper slope Nazi comparisons are not necessary). I just make the statement to convey how angry people are over child molestation.
I agree, the intention should be the protection of real children however I don't mind if of few legal pedophiles get swept up in the backlash.
LOL, joker. bonus points for not giving a crap about what people would say to that.Decoy Doctorpus said:
I think, that shotacon and lolicon are pretty damned horrible, because i am just not in the mindset for that kind of thing, but i do think 20 years is steep. They could argue that it is a safe medium where no one gets hurt, people have probably seen rape porn and never had a thought of doing such a thing.
If he was drawing and marketing it, perhaps I might think years (but not that many) is appropriate, MIGHT, because at the end of the day I read violent manga and have hardly had a violent afterthought, I even grew up watching fucked up anime and manga like devilman and such, and I am still rather docile.
To say that he might go out and 'kevin bacon' some children due to reading lolicon H-manga is like saying someone who beats off to porn constantly is likely to go and rape, and I know plenty of people who beat off to porn constantly and they aren't bad people who would even consider such a thing.
I think it's just excess censorship, and probably stopped something that they are implying might have happened, to happen.
P.S. I am an anime and manga freak but my position on hentai is neutral, neither for nor against. I am however, not against that kind of manga but i do think it is just disgusting.
Jesus Christ, so many judgmental against this particular form of fetishism. I'm not a partaker myself but I fail to see the difference between something like this and getting your rocks off by looking a women with breasts that are so unnaturally large they drag on the ground. (Yes that is a type of porn, my old roommate in college was waaaay into it) Honestly, we are all in to weird sexual things. Maybe you'll disagree with me if you are reading this thread at age 14 (as many of you are) and don't have any "weird" interests yet. Honestly, the only reason child porn is inherently wrong is because children are harmed or doing things they don't understand, etc. Child abuse IS wrong. Very wrong. I will add, however, that animation has nothing to do with child abuse. And before you say "letting people look at animated minors doing sexual things increases the chance of people abusing children in real life" let me just say that there are worlds of bondage/rape porn out there but no one seems to mind. Isn't that causing rape? Aren't video games causing violence? Seriously people...stop being judgmental and just STFU.
There's really not much I could do besides restate what everyone else has been saying, so I won't. Just imagine I did.
Good points, though.
Good points, though.
Yes, people do mind entertainment that features rape. And ending your arguement with a STFU doesn't really elevate your point to that upper trata of intelligence.KarmicToast said:
If you had a kid, and you knew that a male babysitter was heavily into pedophile manga would you let him babysit your kid? This isn't a baited question, I am just curious as to how far you'd follow your rhetoric.
In all honesty, though I'm not a fan of CP in any way, shape or form (one of the primary reasons I left 4chan, in fact), it's still a static piece of art as opposed to an actual child. I understand where the law is coming from on this, but they seem to forget that this sort of thing gives them a safe and (marginally) less disturbing outlet.
This is a quote that I think is very appropriate given the circumstances:
"What you were about to do was evil. Are you the judge of the world? Will you condemn me in the absence of wrongdoing merely because you do not approve of me? That way lies the depraved pleasure of controlling others for your own satisfaction." -Christopher Paolini
"What you were about to do was evil. Are you the judge of the world? Will you condemn me in the absence of wrongdoing merely because you do not approve of me? That way lies the depraved pleasure of controlling others for your own satisfaction." -Christopher Paolini
This is a pretty touchy subject. I will express my opinions on the matter.
Child Pornography by our North American laws consists of any video or image consisting of anyone who is under the age of 18 depicted in a sexual manner. I'm actually against this. I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should be filmed performing sexual acts, even if it is consensual. But this law seems to stretch onto the realm of child modeling and thus hilarity ensues.
On a not so related note, I am against someone doing jail time for dating someone who is under 18. We have 50 year old men dating 18 year olds. There's nothing wrong with that. Of course there's the argument that younger people are easily impressionable but by the time people hit the age of 13 they understand what Sex is and are old enough to make some decisions on their own.
Child modeling is another issue. Where do we draw the line when it comes to photographs or videos that can contain some sexually suggestive poses? I mean if they start criminalizing it how far would they go? Next thing you know you could go to jail for possessing a Sears catalog that has some kids in stylish clothing depicted in it. Most child models know what they are doing, and they are payed for it. There are exceptions, and it's the exceptions that are fueling society into criminalizing it. In my opinion child modeling should be a legal, yet heavily regulated medium.
The real point of my post is I'm basically wondering how far can we go before we can say we're effectively regulating someone's personal taste (or distaste) for something? These are people who aren't really harming anyone.
This issue is not unlike the gaming issue where video game supposedly cause violence. Some people assume that if someone beats off to Hentai depicting children makes them a child rapist. Fact is the vastest majority of these people probably wouldn't fathom harming a anyone, let alone a child. I'll even say that the majority of the people who beat off to lolicon Hentai are not really sexually attracted to children. They are simply more aroused by it due to the "Taboo" factor that is involved.
So because someone who enjoys lolicon hentai goes to jail for it, doesn't that mean that anyone who role-plays a child in sexual intercourse should also go to jail for it?
To me this is a touchy subject that have good arguments on both sides. In terms of lolicon hentai, though I really don't think there's anything wrong with it.
Before any of you start to argue, ask yourself one question:
Do you think violent videogames cause people to become violent? If not, then what makes you think purchasing child pornography causes people to become child molesters?
This isn't a subject you can say yes to one thing, yet say no to the other. Both child molesting and any act of violence are morally wrong.
Child Pornography by our North American laws consists of any video or image consisting of anyone who is under the age of 18 depicted in a sexual manner. I'm actually against this. I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should be filmed performing sexual acts, even if it is consensual. But this law seems to stretch onto the realm of child modeling and thus hilarity ensues.
On a not so related note, I am against someone doing jail time for dating someone who is under 18. We have 50 year old men dating 18 year olds. There's nothing wrong with that. Of course there's the argument that younger people are easily impressionable but by the time people hit the age of 13 they understand what Sex is and are old enough to make some decisions on their own.
Child modeling is another issue. Where do we draw the line when it comes to photographs or videos that can contain some sexually suggestive poses? I mean if they start criminalizing it how far would they go? Next thing you know you could go to jail for possessing a Sears catalog that has some kids in stylish clothing depicted in it. Most child models know what they are doing, and they are payed for it. There are exceptions, and it's the exceptions that are fueling society into criminalizing it. In my opinion child modeling should be a legal, yet heavily regulated medium.
The real point of my post is I'm basically wondering how far can we go before we can say we're effectively regulating someone's personal taste (or distaste) for something? These are people who aren't really harming anyone.
This issue is not unlike the gaming issue where video game supposedly cause violence. Some people assume that if someone beats off to Hentai depicting children makes them a child rapist. Fact is the vastest majority of these people probably wouldn't fathom harming a anyone, let alone a child. I'll even say that the majority of the people who beat off to lolicon Hentai are not really sexually attracted to children. They are simply more aroused by it due to the "Taboo" factor that is involved.
So because someone who enjoys lolicon hentai goes to jail for it, doesn't that mean that anyone who role-plays a child in sexual intercourse should also go to jail for it?
To me this is a touchy subject that have good arguments on both sides. In terms of lolicon hentai, though I really don't think there's anything wrong with it.
Summed up my entire post in one sentence, thank you, sir!
Before any of you start to argue, ask yourself one question:
Do you think violent videogames cause people to become violent? If not, then what makes you think purchasing child pornography causes people to become child molesters?
This isn't a subject you can say yes to one thing, yet say no to the other. Both child molesting and any act of violence are morally wrong.
Well, 60 years ago you could say the same thing about homosexuals, yet such statements would now make you "ignorant".TheNecroswanson said:
I'm for no censorship on this stuff. If there are people (and there ARE people... if that) who like that, good for them. If they want to see that stuff, they should have the right to. Me not liking X should have no effect on whether you can or cannot buy it.
EDIT: Maybe not 'good for them'... on second thought... that's not the best phrase.
If there are people who like that, they shouldn't be prohibited from buying it. They should be discouraged, but not prohibited.
And I also think that hentai is just plain fucking nasty.
EDIT: Maybe not 'good for them'... on second thought... that's not the best phrase.
If there are people who like that, they shouldn't be prohibited from buying it. They should be discouraged, but not prohibited.
And I also think that hentai is just plain fucking nasty.
We're a puppet state. Before WW2 it was Britain, now it's America, but we're leaning toward China since you guys hit a recession.Decoy Doctorpus said:
EDIT: Assuming that you're American.
While I find this kind of Hentai sick and twisted, I don't understand why it should be banned. As another guy has said: It's a drawing.
That's exactly the attitude that's needed to maintain democracy. The moment we start taking "preventative measures" we place ourselves on a very slippery, very dark road. I'm talking black-ice-and-sleet-at-night-on-a-mountain-road slippery and dark.SuperFriendBFG said:
