Well I won't be buying the new Tomb Raider...

[kidd25]

Like I always said, if people want to be offended they will find a way to be offended.

This quote, these words puts together to make perfect sense. excuse me sir, but I think the universe aligned and smack me in the face. I Love this quote. it's in my top three now.

 

[FFHAuthor]

Uh, if the latest Duke Nukem game revealed that a near-rape experience was why the Duke became who he is, you'd be able to hear the jimmies rustling from miles away.

You might hear me screaming 'who the hell decided to make this thing have a story?'...

 

[anthony87]

There's more whining and pointless drama here than in high school. The game looks fun, so I'll be buying it. Is that so hard to understand?

It....it looks fun???? HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT?!? If you want "fun" then why don't you go play Call of Shooters 5 or watch the Transformers movies?!? This place is for people who take things seriously!!!

......Is what I would say if I were someone like the OP to does in fact take everything waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too fucking seriously. Remember the good old days when we just played games for fun? Why the hell do so many people have to go and over-analyse and find issue with every little thing?

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

.

.

No, I'd prefer the definitive staple for female characters becoming badasses to not be attempted rape.

I'd really like it if you could provide a list of female characters who became good-guy badasses as a result of rape or attempted rape. Not females who have rape in their backstory, not females who became deranged psychos because of rape. Women who went from scared college girls to Lara Croft style badasses as a result of rape or attempted rape.

Then I'll provide my list of good guy badass females who do not have rape anywhere in their backstory. We'll see whose list is longer, then talk about the meaning of 'the definitive staple.'

most of the steps America takes when remaking British classics are in the wrong direction.

.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Gearhead mk2]

Dear moral guardians,

There are more important things in life than turning over every single rock looking for a reason to shout "THIS MAY BE INTERPTITED AS POLITICALY INCORRECT". If you really have reason to belive that someone is slipping messages against a certain group into their work, such as the deliberate misinformation and xenophobia in Call of Juarez: The Cartel, then see if there are like-minded people outside of the fundies. If a decent number of you feel the same way, file a complaint, but if not, campaign about things that have more real-world consequences. Like free health care, gun control and the widening pay gap.

Thannk you for reading,
Gearhead mk2

 

[josemlopes]

How to be called sexist in the videogame industry:

1. Have a female character in your videogame.

THE END

Fucking this. No matter what you do, people will always find a way to complain.

Remember Brink? People called it sexist because it didnt had female characters.

And they wonder why we despise feminists (and some other types of people that label themselfs and fight for a cause that doesnt actually needs to be fought) so much, they just make things worse.

Gaming will get there eventually, and from the looks of this Tomb Raider it looks like an example of a situation being treated with some care.

 

[squid5580]

A lot of people seem to misunserstand the problem here. It's not reducing the size of her funbags that's the problem. It's that Rosenburg said that the player isn't supposed to identify with Lara, he's supposed to "take care of her", which is basically saying that weak defenseless women need to be protected by men (because ONLY men play videogames, amirite?) and can't take care of themselves. That's the offensive part. If the game is designed for the player to pity Lara and "help" her through her journey instead of identifying with her and being Lara Croft and living her life, then Crystal Dynamics can go fuck themselves.

Thank you for being one of the few who's actually seeing the point. I know I didn't put it well in my original post, but I was pretty angry initially. This sums up exactly what I took issue with.

I think you guys might be taking the word "immersion" a bit too literally. You will never be Laura. You will always be a person sitting comfortably with a controller or mouse in hand guiding Laura (or any other character in any other virtual world). The most any game can offer you in terms of immersion is for you to care. To spark an emotion within you. To empathize with the character you are controlling with your choice of controller or M/KB. To care about them and their fate. And that is what he said you will do.

 

[CaptOfSerenity]

A couple of hours ago a friend of mine directed me toward this article in Kotaku.

http://kotaku.com/5917400/youll-want-to-protect-the-new-less-curvy-lara-croft

I've been following the recent controversy over the Hitman trailer, the one that inexplicably featured bondage nuns getting seven shades of holy water beaten out of them by 47. In my opinion, this description of Lara Croft is even more offensive to women than that.

In the Hitman trailer, overly sexualised women were being beaten up because we're supposed to want to kill them. They are, after all, attempting to murder the game's protagonist, moody anti-hero that he is. In a certain context it makes sense, and it's clearly the glamorisation of violence against scantily clad women that offends, rather than the fact that 47 kills women at all. If they hadn't been wearing fetish gear (or habits) and hadn't been dispatched in super slo-mo then there might have been less negative reaction. You know, if they'd been dressed like hardcore assassins rather than strippers...

To address this quickly. I don't think that there is particularly anything wrong with that trailer. It isn't presented in a hateful manner; you're not rooting for 47 to kill those assassins because they're women, you are rooting for him because they are the antagonists and he is the protagonist. Now, to address their style: We live in a world where our media has a lot of freedom to explore ideas. One of the things that we choose to explore often is our sexuality. Human sexuality isn't always clear-cut, God approved missionary sex. People have ALL sorts of fetishes and often times, in exploring those in media, we get a story that better resonates with the audience and at the same time, allows us to better understand ourselves. Now take the Femme Fatale. This isn't the first time that someone has said that there is something sexy about deadly, beautiful women. It's a trope you see all the time. Look at James Bond. I think that it's fine for movies and games and other media to explore concepts like this as long as they're not done in a hateful manner as I said.

Isn't this description of the "new" Lara Croft much more offensive to female gamers in particular, and women in general? It manages to imply that large breasts make a woman less human for starters. It also makes a point that gamers (who are ideally supposed to be projecting onto the characters they are playing) will want to "protect" her, because she's "more vulnerable." Yes, you make a woman more realistic by ensuring she's less sexually empowered and needs a lot more looking after by the (presumably target male demographic) gamers that play her. *sarcasm*

No, it doesn't say that having large breasts makes a woman less human. It is saying that the old Laura was a sexualized caricature; NOT a person. She was sexualized to point where you could not believe she was a person because no real person looked the way she did. She did not feel human because no human being looks the way she looked. There was absolutely nothing "sexually empowering" about the original Laura. Now she looks like a person rather than a doll.

As for the "Protecting her" thing, I'm sure I'm going to be addressing this a lot, but the main point is this. This Laura Croft is not the Laura Croft from the rest of the games. She is not a "hero" at the start of the game. She's a young adult who from what can be surmised by the trailers is not at the start of the game particularly skilled in any of the endeavors she is undertaking. She's just a normal person thrust into a extraordinary situation. In that context, wanting to "Protect your character" makes SENSE, because the character is incapable of mounting a serious offense. What is important here is that this is a gender neutral concept. I'm male, but if you stuck me in a scenario like this, I would need just as much "protection" because I have no survival skills or combat skills myself and would just as easily die as this game's Laura.

Is it just me that's a little disgusted by this? Fair enough, original Lara was a caricature, sexualised to the point of hilarity, and completely unsuitable as an aspirational model of womanhood. But she was at least able to look after herself. She was a bit of a badass, no denying, and that was something she had going for her. Men may have been more focused on her breasts, but the fact that she had an attitude was inescapable, albeit an attitude that occasionally spilled over into parody. In some ways original Lara was much more honest than this new, "realistic" Lara. After all, the protagonist in most games, male of female, is a ridiculously badass, fit, attractive, muscular specimen of humanity, who is perfect in almost every way. I know these aren't things we realistically aspire to, as I'm sure most gamers out there do. To believe that you could be exactly like these people, indeed to want to be exactly like these people, is clearly delusional behaviour. But at least they usually have some admirable personality traits, be it confidence, determination, etc... Original Lara was no different. Her body shape was literally impossible to achieve, but at least she wasn't just a pair of breasts bouncing above a hot-pants clad arse.

To aspire to be new Lara would be the pinnacle of insanity. Here is a young woman who is portrayed as being totally helpless and vulnerable. Yes, she learns to fend for herself. Yes, by the end of the game we can assume she'll be strong and independent with a badass attitude. But what does it take for her to achieve this? This wilting violet of a girl has to be subjected to more hideous torture and brutality than any of us are ever likely to experience. The implication of this is that the only way for a woman to develop an attitude and be able to look after herself is for her to undergo unspeakable hardship. And of course to have the big male ego of the gamer caring for her at every step.

This is amusing to me. You consider the old Laura to be more realistic, when everything about her was exaggerated and the new Laura to be less realistic because she's like a normal person? What I'm even more surprised by is that you are so attached to the old Laura simply because she has an attitude? Do you have any idea how trite and played-out the "Hot woman with an attitude" character is? You are so offended by this idea of what you see as a Laura that needs a male gamer to look after her, but have no problem with marginalizing complaints of exploiting female sexuality by tacking on a cheap attitude to a character?

To address what I view as your chief complaint, which is new Laura not being a "badass," consider this: If you haven't figured it out, this new Tomb Raider is a type of "Hero's Journey" story. In these types of stories, the hero always starts out as a young and unskilled normal person who is forced on an adventure and over the course of the adventure, develops into the hero. That is exactly what this game is. You say that the new Laura isn't inspirational because at the start of the story she has no worthwhile qualities or that her worthwhile qualities will be a result of subjecting her to torture.

Let me pose this question: In what way is the new Laura's story different from Frodo's from Lord of the Rings? Besides her being a woman. Both start out their stories without any knowledge or skill. They're both thrust unwillingly into a dangerous situation. They both have to adventure and overcome extreme obstacles to survive. They both are subject to torture and beatings and violence. They both grow throughout their journey. At the end of both of their adventures they have become self-dependent and heroic.

There is absolutely no difference thematically and yet while people consider Frodo to be very heroic, you are dismissive and disdainful of Laura.

The fact that this hardship has to be rape as opposed to anything else is truly despicable.

This is something that doesn't get talked about enough, so I'm going to separate it out, because it's very important and doesn't quite fit with the above discussion. Rape is something that is largely a uniquely female danger in our society (I know that it happens to men and children, but lets stay on topic here). It's difficult to discuss rape because of it's taboo nature and worrying about offending others or hurting women who have been raped. But at the same time, I think we hurt our society because we don't talk about rape. We are so afraid of talking about it that I think we marginalize it sometimes.

Now here is my problem. I believe that the way you are presenting this game, it almost sounds like you believe that the game will be Laura being tortured non-stop until someone attempts to rape her, in which case she will suddenly be transformed and finally fight back. I don't really see that as being the case from what I have seen of the game. Now, I'm sure there is likely going to be some sort of scene where Laura manages to kill her attacker, and it may even be the first person she kills, but I do not believe that they are going to use the attempted rape in the game as some sort of transitive moment for her. I think there is importance in covering this topic. Like I said, I'm male and well, quite frankly I don't ever really worry about being raped. It's just not something that realistically is going to happen to me. But if I was female, it's an entirely different story. That's something that's very scary to think about: that simply by being a different gender, the odds of me being the victim of a crime go up astronomically.

I will have to see how this is done inevitably, but I have hope that the subject matter will be presented tastefully (because if it isn't there will be hell to pay for the developers in the news media).

Why couldn't we have a Lara we could try to identify with? I see no fundamental difference between one that men only play because they want to ogle her tits and one men only want to play because they feel the need to take care of the poor little girl. Both models of femininity are equally sexist in my opinion. And rape, seriously?

Am I just overreacting? Or is it a valid point? What do you all think?

I think you are seriously overreacting for the reasons described. This isn't some sort of "White Knight" simulator. The developers are using an INCREDIBLY old story formula that starts out with a weak protagonist developing into a strong hero. Laura isn't being portrayed as some weak little girl you need to take care of because all women are weak and need to be taken care of. She's being portrayed as weak because at the start she IS weak and the plot demands that she BE weak at the beginning so you can see how strong she becomes at the end.

Alright, everyone, go home. Stop it. This person just gave the perfect explanation that I copied because you should totally read it.

 

[Spitfire]

Ok, let's break your post down to the basics.

Game features protagonist who faces immense hardships, game expects the player to sympathize with and guide the protagonist rather than play AS the protagonist, therefore game is being sexist.
Why does that make it sexist? Oh, because the protagonist is female. Wait, who's being sexist here again?

I hope you can now see how ridiculous what you said really is.

 

[MammothBlade]

From what I've heard, this is the sort of change that might make me want to play Tomb Raider. The new Lara Croft looks like a generally more interesting character. Not just a sex symbol who can fire guns akimbo.

The original Tomb Raider games never appealed. This one might just be different.

 

[Flight]

I was looking forward to the game, until we learned that it's all about "protecting" Lara and "wanting to help" her. Forget that. There are ways for female characters to develop spines and the like without the writers resorting to things like attempted rape. Rape is an extremely sensitive issue and shouldn't just be used for things like adding drama and cheap thrills. While I'm fine with the main character being vulnerable (this is a young and inexperienced Lara Croft, so it's only to be expected), this crosses a line for me.

 

[anthony87]

I was looking forward to the game, until we learned that it's all about "protecting" Lara and "wanting to help" her. Forget that. There are ways for female characters to develop spines and the like without the writers resorting to things like attempted rape. Rape is an extremely sensitive issue and shouldn't just be used for things like adding drama and cheap thrills. While I'm fine with the main character being vulnerable (this is a young and inexperienced Lara Croft, so it's only to be expected), this crosses a line for me.

Please tell me where you see any raping occur in that video.

 

[Flight]

Please tell me where you see any raping occur in that video.

What they're putting in the video doesn't matter as much as what the executive producer is saying. I've seen several interviews from him on this matter, and they all say the same thing. Of course they're not going to put that on display on the previews, it would practically be shooting themselves int he foot.

 

[SpectacularWebHead]

A couple of hours ago a friend of mine directed me toward this article in Kotaku.

http://kotaku.com/5917400/youll-want-to-protect-the-new-less-curvy-lara-croft

I've been following the recent controversy over the Hitman trailer, the one that inexplicably featured bondage nuns getting seven shades of holy water beaten out of them by 47. In my opinion, this description of Lara Croft is even more offensive to women than that.

In the Hitman trailer, overly sexualised women were being beaten up because we're supposed to want to kill them. They are, after all, attempting to murder the game's protagonist, moody anti-hero that he is. In a certain context it makes sense, and it's clearly the glamorisation of violence against scantily clad women that offends, rather than the fact that 47 kills women at all. If they hadn't been wearing fetish gear (or habits) and hadn't been dispatched in super slo-mo then there might have been less negative reaction. You know, if they'd been dressed like hardcore assassins rather than strippers...

Isn't this description of the "new" Lara Croft much more offensive to female gamers in particular, and women in general? It manages to imply that large breasts make a woman less human for starters. It also makes a point that gamers (who are ideally supposed to be projecting onto the characters they are playing) will want to "protect" her, because she's "more vulnerable." Yes, you make a woman more realistic by ensuring she's less sexually empowered and needs a lot more looking after by the (presumably target male demographic) gamers that play her. *sarcasm*

Is it just me that's a little disgusted by this? Fair enough, original Lara was a caricature, sexualised to the point of hilarity, and completely unsuitable as an aspirational model of womanhood. But she was at least able to look after herself. She was a bit of a badass, no denying, and that was something she had going for her. Men may have been more focused on her breasts, but the fact that she had an attitude was inescapable, albeit an attitude that occasionally spilled over into parody. In some ways original Lara was much more honest than this new, "realistic" Lara. After all, the protagonist in most games, male of female, is a ridiculously badass, fit, attractive, muscular specimen of humanity, who is perfect in almost every way. I know these aren't things we realistically aspire to, as I'm sure most gamers out there do. To believe that you could be exactly like these people, indeed to want to be exactly like these people, is clearly delusional behaviour. But at least they usually have some admirable personality traits, be it confidence, determination, etc... Original Lara was no different. Her body shape was literally impossible to achieve, but at least she wasn't just a pair of breasts bouncing above a hot-pants clad arse.

To aspire to be new Lara would be the pinnacle of insanity. Here is a young woman who is portrayed as being totally helpless and vulnerable. Yes, she learns to fend for herself. Yes, by the end of the game we can assume she'll be strong and independent with a badass attitude. But what does it take for her to achieve this? This wilting violet of a girl has to be subjected to more hideous torture and brutality than any of us are ever likely to experience. The implication of this is that the only way for a woman to develop an attitude and be able to look after herself is for her to undergo unspeakable hardship. And of course to have the big male ego of the gamer caring for her at every step. The fact that this hardship has to be rape as opposed to anything else is truly despicable.

Why couldn't we have a Lara we could try to identify with? I see no fundamental difference between one that men only play because they want to ogle her tits and one men only want to play because they feel the need to take care of the poor little girl. Both models of femininity are equally sexist in my opinion. And rape, seriously?

Am I just overreacting? Or is it a valid point? What do you all think?

No you aren't. You're absolutely right. This is...Horrible, quite frankly. It's totally ridiculous, and exactly the wrong turn the series should take.

so you'd prefer gaming to keep its wheels spinning a few more generations before we can tackle meaningful subject matters and real character growth.

No, I'd prefer the definitive staple for female characters becoming badasses to not be attempted rape.

really staple? so something happening is a staple, by that logic nathan drake is a crazed gunman, Except he's not he just shoots people sometime. People aren't completely defined by what has happened to them, it can just help shape people. Yeah its a little squicky and uncomfortable, but that means its challenging us to feel something more than dumb ass adrenaline rushes.

Its a tough journey, and tbh its a subject matter which isn't dealt with maturely enough or often enough in any media, so on those basis alone its a story worth telling, letalone it making room for some actual characterisation.

And people wonder why gaming is considered an immature hobby when people are shaken from their comfort zones a little bit they throw their hands up and have a hissy.

This thread is an embarrassment.

(Nathan Drake IS a crazed gunman)

What's really embaressing is that your concerns aren't actually being adressed to the guy who started this forum.

I have said this once, I will say it again.

I AM NOT A SECRETARY. I AM NOT RELAYING INFORMATION TO THE OP. COMPLAIN TO HIM OR HER, I AM JUST AGREEING WITH THEM.

Why am I getting more responses from you people than the person who started this thread? Since when did I become popular?

 

[SpectacularWebHead]

I haven't read any of those articles, and I don't intend to. All I know is that once again, Rape is being used as a device to add shock factor to a female character in a game that really didn't need that kind of thing in it. There is no justification for showing such an act in this way. If rape is going to be put in a videogame (Or any media), It needs to be done in a way that actually adresses it in a tasteful, sensitive way, as opposed to the advertising device that it's being currently used as.

Also, why am I getting all these messages?

Because you're spouting outrage without trying to inform yourself on what you're actually angry about?

Nice double-standard that these writers need to be attentive and informed before they cover this topic; yet all you should need to decry them as misogynists and slander their project is second-hand half-truths from tabloid-grade journalism.

Look, Oh yea of the many articles, my problem is the way they are handling this. The fact that they have made a point of putting this Section into their statements is a mishandling. The fact we know that it's going to happen is the problem. If it had been a shocking twist in the game THEN it may have been more acceptable and easy to justify as a plot device. But they are using Rape as a marketing tool. Do you realise how much publicity they've gotten over this debacle? It's intentional, they mentioned it in their statement Specifically to get this kind of re-action, and therein lies the problem.

My opinions on them being mysoginst comes from the "Lara needs protecting" statement, swiftly followed by the whole rape thing. Anyone (You seem intelligent, You must have seen this) can spot the connection.

Lara is a woman. Someone will try to rape her. Lara needs protection from the Nasty men that you, the male demographic of our audience (Because that's all thats left, I don't know a single girl gamer who's still going to buy this). Thus mysoginism.

There you go, My opinions in a conscise manner. I fully realise that My interpretation of this is not going to be the same as everyones, but can I point out, I'm not the OP's secretary.

 

[anthony87]

Please tell me where you see any raping occur in that video.

What they're putting in the video doesn't matter as much as what the executive producer is saying. I've seen several interviews from him on this matter, and they all say the same thing. Of course they're not going to put that on display on the previews, it would practically be shooting themselves int he foot.

No...that video does matter because the video contains the big bad "rape scene" that people are getting all up in arms about. See that bit where the dude touches her ass and kisses her neck? That's it. That then leads to a struggle and she kills a person for the first time and we as the player get to see how she deals with something like that.

 

[Flight]

No...that video does matter because the video contains the big bad "rape scene" that people are getting all up in arms about. See that bit where the dude touches her ass and kisses her neck? That's it. That then leads to a struggle and she kills a person for the first time and we as the player get to see how she deals with something like that.

For one thing, I said it doesn't matter as much as what one of the creators is saying. I'm not going to be interested in a game that's unappealing to me. And yes, I've seen it. It's still unacceptable, and there are better ways to add drama and inspire spines in female characters that don't involve rape and/or molestation. It's not okay. Furthermore, your arguments aren't helping your case in the least; I'm still not going to be interested in this game.

 

[SajuukKhar]

For one thing, I said it doesn't mate as much as what one of the creators is saying. I'm not going to be interested in a game that's unappealing to me. And yes, I've seen it. It's still unacceptable, and there are better ways to add drama and inspire spines in female characters that don't involve rape and/or molestation. It's not okay. Furthermore, your arguments aren't helping your case in the least; I'm still not going to be interested in this game.

Because realistic situations in games that add character depth aren't ok?

Everyone needs to be a invulnerable uber-tank sper-soliders that is basically a gun with legs?

This one really one, 10 second incident, in an entire game about things making lara a badass, it isn't like this is THE thing, its one in a series of things.

 

[Flight]

Everyone needs to be a invulnerable uber-tank sper-soliders that is basically a gun with elgs?

There's a difference between "realistic situations" and "look what we did to add drama! Oh, and do you know Lara Croft is female?" which is what the interviews are coming off as. And the "invulnerable uber tank" is hardly what I'm saying - note that I pointed out vulnerability in someone as young and inexperienced as Lara is in the reboot is only to be expected.. Resorting to ridiculous, unfounded extremes isn't helping your argument, either.

 

[anthony87]

For one thing, I said it doesn't mate as much as what one of the creators is saying. I'm not going to be interested in a game that's unappealing to me. And yes, I've seen it. It's still unacceptable, and there are better ways to add drama and inspire spines in female characters that don't involve rape and/or molestation. It's not okay. Furthermore, your arguments aren't helping your case in the least; I'm still not going to be interested in this game.

Because realistic situations in games that add character depth aren't ok?

Everyone needs to be a invulnerable uber-tank sper-soliders that is basically a gun with elgs?

I know right? God forbid the makers try and define a character!

It seriously boggles my mind. You've got people saying that games aren't taken seriously, they're immature etc. Then when you have a game that tries to be realistic/serious people start saying "Nope. Nope. Can't do that. Too serious a subject".