Well Square, you finally did it... you killed Final Fantasy (A Rant)

[hermes]

1: Square Enix announces a new Final Fantasy game, stating that they listened to fans and are finally going to get it right.
2: Fans complain about the game being the worst ever before release and the cause they finally destroyed the franchise. Defenders of the previous game start appearing because "it wasn't so bad after all".
3: Square Enix releases the game and people hates it. "Its not a true final fantasy", and "now I am done with the series" a plenty.
4: Goto 1.

Seriously, you have the right to your opinion, but I have seen this cycle repeat itself so many times (ever since 6), I can't take any "now its really over" statement seriously.

 

[DerangedHobo]

I hate to break it to you but final fantasy has always been full of douche bag emo shits, I mean seriously, any game post FF7. It's probably just nostalgia that is making you remember the FF series as 'good'. JRPGs are god awful.

 

[RJ 17]

so I really don't care what you have to say about my opinion in the first place. It's mine, and you're not going to change it.

2nd Edit: I apologize, apparently I was a bit hasty in reading over your post and didn't see that the last bit was directed at the OP in particular.

Re edit 2: It's all cool. Just saying fantasy does not instantly mean tolkien-esque depictions and settings, I think that specific sub-genre of fantasy is called "high fantasy"? Can anyone confirm that? I mean I get that you like and enjoy that specific setting, that's totally fine, but I just don't get how you can deride it for "not being fantasy" when fantasy is not inherently sword'n'knight. This isn't even an opinion thing, SE can be rightfully critisised for a LOT of things but "not being fantasy" really shouldn't be up there. :/

To be fair, you're entirely right, I was pretty vague with my definition of "fantasy". You're also right in that what I was talking about is considered "high fantasy". My point was that I didn't like how the series shifted away from high fantasy to more...I dunno..."whimsical" fantasy, for lack of a better term at the moment.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

Wait what? No more turn based combat? Well they just lost my vote . Man games are becoming more and more casual every day . And i don't mean casual in the casual vs hardcore sense , i mean it in the litteral sense , they games are now being geared towards people that only place games once in a while for an hour or two . Not people that actually has it as a hobby.

Uh... dude.. you do know that there are a large variety of gamers who just don't like traditional FF-Style combat? There are plenty of more action-y genres that "hobbiest" gamers play. Even the new hack 'n slash style gameplay has had previous titles that have had large followings (Kingdom Hearts, Devil May Cry)

 

[Foolery]

snip!

Question. What are your feelings on XII? Combat, gambits, and other junk aside that is. You posted quite a bit about the old-school FF games. But from my perspective, I thought Ivalice had a decent mix of knights, magic, swords, etc along with some of the sci-fi futuristic aesthetics that started in VI, VII, and VIII. Even the dialogue is a bit ye olde English. And an almost Shakespearean plot to go with it. Just curious.

 

[Deshin]

To be fair, you're entirely right, I was pretty vague with my definition of "fantasy". You're also right in that what I was talking about is considered "high fantasy". My point was that I didn't like how the series shifted away from high fantasy to more...I dunno..."whimsical" fantasy, for lack of a better term at the moment.

I know what you mean. If I had to haphazard a guess at it I'd say a lot of early console RPGs of the 80's were trying to mimic Dungeons & Dragons. Not to mention due to the graphical fidelity at the time they could only do so much with 8-bit sprites and making intricate details was impossible so they stuck to what people were immediately familiar with. Guy in a robe, guy in armor and a helmet, castle with a few pixels as towers, etc. I think once the proliferation of consoles really hit in the 90s and Squaresoft had properly come into its own as a company they felt liberated artistically to deviate from the norm and go down a more stylised path.

 

[RJ 17]

snip!

Question. What are your feelings on XII? Combat, gambits, and other junk aside that is. You posted quite a bit about the old-school FF games. But from my perspective, I thought Ivalice had a decent mix of knights, magic, swords, etc along with some of the sci-fi futuristic aesthetics that started in VI, VII, and VIII. Just curious.

Sadly, as I said in my post (which I'm glad you actually found interesting enough to read ), I gave up on the series after FFX. Haven't played another FF game since then, so I really can't offer any thoughts on XI through whatever number we're up to now (XV, apparently )

As for Ivalice, all the sci-fi tech stuff was based on ancient history in the world. It is said that airships used to fill the sky in Ivalice, but now they don't. It's like they went through a regression, getting back more towards a more medieval timeframe with architecture, weaponry, and character design. I believe the most advanced technology in the game is the guns, and besides the basic model and it's upgrade, all the rest of the guns actually shoot magic (and are frickin' badass ). There's also the optional robot dude you can pick up, but he was a relic from the past age.

 

[RJ 17]

To be fair, you're entirely right, I was pretty vague with my definition of "fantasy". You're also right in that what I was talking about is considered "high fantasy". My point was that I didn't like how the series shifted away from high fantasy to more...I dunno..."whimsical" fantasy, for lack of a better term at the moment.

I know what you mean. If I had to haphazard a guess at it I'd say a lot of early console RPGs of the 80's were trying to mimic Dungeons & Dragons. Not to mention due to the graphical fidelity at the time they could only do so much with 8-bit sprites and making intricate details was impossible so they stuck to what people were immediately familiar with. Guy in a robe, guy in armor and a helmet, castle with a few pixels as towers, etc. I think once the proliferation of consoles really hit in the 90s and Squaresoft had properly come into its own as a company they felt liberated artistically to deviate from the norm and go down a more stylised path.

And that's entirely in the realm of possibility and actually a pretty likely situation. But I'm an old fuddy-duddy, as I said in my original post in this topic I can relate to what the OP was feeling in that SE seems to be going through another change from the FF games that he grew up with, just as it went from a change from the FF games that I grew up with. I'm VERY nostalgic about the old school FF games, particularly 4 and 6. As such, like with all change, not everyone is going to like it.

But beyond just an aesthetics point, the setting design is actually a hint of what I felt was closer to the core of my problem: it seemed like they were trying way too hard to dazzle gamers with their remarkable sets (and to be perfectly honest, I give credit where it's due: SE is DAMN good at making breathtaking scenery and CGI cutscenes) that it seemed to detract away from the story. I thought 7's story was ok, 8 made me facepalm at the end, 9 - though it did get back closer to the classical appearance of the old school games (hell, Vivi is straight-up a black mage out of the first FF) - was just too boring for me, that's why I couldn't get past the first disc, and 10 was just tricky to follow and - like with 8 - made me facepalm at the ending. I mean really? The main boss - the very GOD of this world - is a giant floating tick that casts Re-Raise on your party and only attacks through gravity magic, thus making it impossible for him to finish you off once you get down to 1hp and, in fact, lets you speed things up since you'll be limit-breaking ever turn? A lot of people try to say that fighting all your summons and then fighting Jehtc (or however it's spelled) is supposed to be the REAL main boss, but to me a main boss is the final boss...by definition: the last boss in the game. And on that note Yevon came up SEVERELY lacking in my book.

But I seem to be getting side-tracked here. In my opinion - and I obviously can't speak for any FF games beyond 10 - the stories have been suffering as a result of the graphics and settings getting better with technology. To me, I've gotta agree with Yahtzee: "SE seems to be saying "Damnit people, can't you see we just want to make CGI movies?!" "

 

[Deshin]

10 was just tricky to follow and - like with 8 - made me facepalm at the ending. I mean really? The main boss - the very GOD of this world - is a giant floating tick that casts Re-Raise on your party and only attacks through gravity magic, thus making it impossible for him to finish you off once you get down to 1hp and, in fact, lets you speed things up since you'll be limit-breaking ever turn? A lot of people try to say that fighting all your summons and then fighting Jehtc (or however it's spelled) is supposed to be the REAL main boss, but to me a main boss is the final boss...by definition: the last boss in the game. And on that note Yevon came up SEVERELY lacking in my book.

But I seem to be getting side-tracked here. In my opinion - and I obviously can't speak for any FF games beyond 10 - the stories have been suffering as a result of the graphics and settings getting better with technology. To me, I've gotta agree with Yahtzee: "SE seems to be saying "Damnit people, can't you see we just want to make CGI movies?!" "

I've always believed that in the last 8 years or so SE has wanted to create "Advent Children - the game." They want all the wall-kicking, over-the-top melee combat, and the mystical to point of non-sensical stuff flying everywhere and they think "Now what can we do to make that into a game?" I think that was XIII's biggest problem, they wanted to go "ok let's make advent children" and went "well if we give too much control to the player they'll just make it look ugly" so they made movement in combat AI controlled and attacks seamlessly chain together at the cost of making the game more or less "press A over and over to win." Ok sure the last part of the game if you want to kill all the extra bosses you need to paradigm shift the hell out of your group to not end up a smear on the grasslands but the damage had been done by then.

As for FFX, I know it gets a lot of flak but I'm tempted to be lenient on it because I *think* I get the message they were trying to convey. After all the hardships, Sins, wars fought in his name, etc, Yu Yevon ends up being nothing but a helpless parasite. The fight was *meant* to be a mockery because... idk they meant for the player to acknowledge he was a joke all along and that in itself is the message? That after all their trials and tribulations the group realised "THIS is Yu Yevon? This is not God. He's a worm." Sort of like Fable 2's ending tbh.

Sometimes the biggest of the baddest being a joke can send a message that you couldn't otherwise do if he was actually powerful and dominating. But of course it's a FF game and we demand our final-boss but I finished the game and thought "If Yu Yevon was actually stupid powerful he'd be worthy of veneration. Seeing the master pulling the strings, the voice behind the curtain, and he's nothing more than a parasite cowering behind his own machinations. He couldn't kill me, he could never kill me, he wasn't worth being called God." sent more of a message to me than throwing down in a clash of titans. Same as in FFVII, you have the huge battle with Sephiroth but then the "final" battle of the game is just Sephiroth and Cloud face to face and Cloud has a full limit bar, 100% counter, and Sephiroth has a magical based physical attack that can only do 90% of your HP max damage. It's a rigged fight, it's unloseable, it's the fullstop at the end of the great battle.

Or maybe not, who knows?

 

[RJ 17]

Snip.

Oh I definitely got the message behind Yevon being an absolute push-over. But I'm glad you brought up FF7's final confrontation against Sephiroth. To me, that was actually part of the ending itself. God, it's been YEARS since I've played that game and seen the ending, but as I recall Cloud knows Sephiroth is still down there, so he jumps down to finish him off. It's a cutscene without being a cutscene, for lack of a better way to put it. Because that's what everyone was waiting to see: a 1 v 1 with Cloud vs "Human" Sephiroth. So you hop down, unleash an omnislash to look all badass, then get right back out of there and cue the actual ending movie. If they had done it like that: a 1 v 1 with Tidus fighting Yevon because that's the only way he can get back to his own time/existence/dimension/whatever (like I said, I had trouble following the story and I only played through the game once) then I wouldn't have had a problem with it at all. Just let Tidus go up there, stab the damn thing, and go home.

But with Yevon, you just gotta sit there beating his ass for about 10 minutes, then it goes to the ending. The fact that they designed him to be a big floating tick really drives home the point that indeed he is nothing more than a parasite on the world. But Lavos from Chrono Trigger was a world-parasite and HE actually got a true final boss fight. Granted I'm now officially bringing in a new series to the equation, but it's still made by SE so I think it counts!

 

[Sean Steele]

Here's a panorama of characters from the most recent trailer (that picture you're using is quite old)

Spoiler

As you can see, there are two girls, and when viewing the characters from the front they don't look so "brotastic" to me.

Whats Ezio doing there :3

 

[Roxas1359]

snip!

Question. What are your feelings on XII? Combat, gambits, and other junk aside that is. You posted quite a bit about the old-school FF games. But from my perspective, I thought Ivalice had a decent mix of knights, magic, swords, etc along with some of the sci-fi futuristic aesthetics that started in VI, VII, and VIII. Just curious.

Sadly, as I said in my post (which I'm glad you actually found interesting enough to read ), I gave up on the series after FFX. Haven't played another FF game since then, so I really can't offer any thoughts on XI through whatever number we're up to now (XV, apparently )

As for Ivalice, all the sci-fi tech stuff was based on ancient history in the world. It is said that airships used to fill the sky in Ivalice, but now they don't. It's like they went through a regression, getting back more towards a more medieval timeframe with architecture, weaponry, and character design. I believe the most advanced technology in the game is the guns, and besides the basic model and it's upgrade, all the rest of the guns actually shoot magic (and are frickin' badass ). There's also the optional robot dude you can pick up, but he was a relic from the past age.

Yeah that's the Omega MK XII who was made to try and combat Yiazmat as some people speculate when you read the story about it in the Journal when completing the Urutan Yensa enteries. He's actually the prototype of all the Mimics that you see in XII which I found to be cool, getting to that boss is a pain in the ass though. Still, I personally loved XII and it's my favorite FF game so I'm obviously a black sheep in this thread.

snip!

Question. What are your feelings on XII? Combat, gambits, and other junk aside that is. You posted quite a bit about the old-school FF games. But from my perspective, I thought Ivalice had a decent mix of knights, magic, swords, etc along with some of the sci-fi futuristic aesthetics that started in VI, VII, and VIII. Even the dialogue is a bit ye olde English. And an almost Shakespearean plot to go with it. Just curious.

Interesting thing is that the International version of XII actaully added in Job Classes like the White Mage, Red Mage, Knight, Thief, etc, but since the International versions were never localized outside of Japan not many people have played them. The International fixed a lot of gameplay issues that people complained about.

OT: Personally I think XV looks pretty good. I mean I've played every single numbered FF game, only ones I don't own are 1 and 2, and my favorite one is XII with IX being second and VI being 3rd.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'll put up my flame shield because seems liking XII in this thread is not a good thing.
*puts up flame shield*

 

[Something Amyss]

Spoiler

Are you sure that's not a shot from Saints Row 4?

 

[endtherapture]

It's not so much that they KILLED Final Fantasy, it's that they're making a new type of game using the old FF name. Which I think is a shame. I mean, I am not against what I've seen of this game... I just wish that they were making a good old turn based/ATB FF RPG, while ALSO making this.

Well they were doing that, the game used to be called Final Fantasy 13 Versus.

 

[elvor0]

Yes, a game that has been in development hell for over half a decade and has extremely limited announced features is the death of a long-standing franchise because of a completely meaningless thing that may not even actually be true, because we don't have enough information to know yet.

Or, and here's some truly radical thinking, you could wait until more information about the game is actually released and maybe even wait until the game is released before you declare that it's "RUINED FOREVER".

To be clear, it's not that I disagree with your sentiment. I disagree with the way you've phrased it and how utterly intolerable it makes your opinion come across. Have you seen the other Final Fantasy games? Particularly XIII, really, but past the very first few they've pretty much always been the "J-Pop brigade broing it up", even with the female characters. And I'd rather no female characters than a retreading of Lightning or Vanille, personally.

Not saying ruined forever, but certainly ruined for me... unless things REALLY change as it gets closer to release.

My point is that you should be less reactionary when there's still a lot of time left until the game is released. Wait for more information, then you can say that you're not interested in it because of reasons. Right now, we don't know if there's going to be female playable characters or not, so saying that the game is ruined for you because you're assuming there won't be any is just silly.

Also... I kinda liked Lightning... I know a lot of people didn't but I thought she was pretty awesome, Fang too... actually the only character in that game I really didn't like was Hope...

For better or worse, Lightning could've easily been male without any functional difference in her character. While that's not a bad thing in itself, since most video game writers fail at making 'female' characters in the first place and it's commendable to have a female character that isn't defined as "is female", the writing for her hasn't been strong enough to keep her from being otherwise flat and generic, with the only outstanding characteristic thus becoming the fact that she is a she. More specifically, there's a reason people say she's basically a female version of Kingdom Hearts-era Cloud Strife.

Lightning actually intrigued me right up until the point where she got all nihilistic about how small she was in the universe and deciding that to the Edilons they were essentially pets, which is fine as her character arc was about rediscovering herself as a person rather than a tool, and the breakdown was a good turn for the character, but she never recovered from it, she just...ceased to exist, barely said anything past that point and was just sort of there. Her character arc seemed to just stop.

Though her being kingdom hearts could is almost hilarious when you think about, given the obvious parallel between her and cloud at the beginning (mission on the train, ex-SOLDIER, black guy with guns, etc), but it reaches new levels considering there's a picture floating around with her and clouds face next to each other, split down the middle. They have the same face. Like, it is literally the same face model cloud has in advent children.

The characters actually kept me going in FF13(that and spite at not wanting to be beaten by it) as I wanted to find out about them and follow their stories,(Not the plot, god no, the plot was a clusterfuck of awful and certainly not the gameplay or world, and if I ever hear Leona fucking Lewis again, it'll be an eternity too soon) yet it was like they just forgot to write the second half of anyones arc, they all have their crisis of faith then just stop.

As for FFX, I know it gets a lot of flak but I'm tempted to be lenient on it because I *think* I get the message they were trying to convey. After all the hardships, Sins, wars fought in his name, etc, Yu Yevon ends up being nothing but a helpless parasite. The fight was *meant* to be a mockery because... idk they meant for the player to acknowledge he was a joke all along and that in itself is the message? That after all their trials and tribulations the group realised "THIS is Yu Yevon? This is not God. He's a worm." Sort of like Fable 2's ending tbh.

I'll agree with that, Yu'yevon and the aeons were an interactive cut scene, they weren't supposed to be thought of as bosses, Jecht was the final boss, because that was the point, Yu'yevon wasn't a god. Not even close. Everyone in the world just thought that because well...how else are they supposed to perceive things? It is (or was) a technologically advanced world, but the people themselves are still thinking and acting like we did in the shift from the dark ages to the renaissance. The church holds all the power, and because nothing else has ever worked, the only hope they had to cling on to was the temples and summoners. Sin arose out of the machinama wars and wiped out most of the planet on pure instinct, with the soul instruction to destroy any city that got too big or relied too much on machina; the only way people could react to it was to think it was some divine punishment.

 

[JakeNubbin]

"Games nowadayyz are getting soo far away from narritive driven storieezz"

Dude calm down, just get the Final Fantasy 7 re-relase on steam, you might be happier in life. And if that doesn't work i guess you could just try to pluck your head from your bum although that might take awhile.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

And why is the cast of FF15 looking like a douchtastic boyband coupled with a bunch of old dudes with oddly trendy j-pop hairstyles? It's not even the hairstyles, it's not the look of the characters... it's the fact that you seem to be "broing" up the series in the worst possible way...

Isn't that because FF15 is actually just FF vs13? VS13 always had a sort of Boy Band look to it. That's one reason I was never particularly excited about it.

If you're pissed off at SquareEnix about something, why not be pissed at them for FF14? That is the money-pit that has delayed all their other IPs. FF14 is the reason we have no Kingdom Hearts 3.

SquareEnix should have just stuck with FF11 as the only FF MMO. If they'd put a 1/10th of the money into updating FF 11 as they put into screwing up FF14, they'd have built good will and kept player membership up in that game. Instead, they killed their successful FF11, wasted money on the (financial) failure that is FF14, and delayed all the single player games that their fans actually care about.

I blame Enix. Square Soft wasn't this stupid before the merger.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Spoiler

Are you sure that's not a shot from Saints Row 4?

Ha!

Actually, my response to that image was "wait, you mean that one on the left isn't female?!"

But that's par for the course with Final Fantasy character design. I remember being excited about the "female main character" in FF9 that turned out to be male.

 

[hazabaza1]

Any character with a mullet is automatically disqualified from being called well-designed in any way.

Spoiler: *Ahem*

But yeah OP kinda seems whiny tbh. Not everything's been announced, it's not grey and modern, and some of the characters don't even look ridiculously fucking stupid! Shock horror! They could use some of the creativity from earlier games but I'm looking forward to it.