"We're Making It Accessible to a Wider Audience."

[Kahunaburger]

Skyrim's level scaling system is so much more fun.

Level scaling and fun should never be mentioned in the same sentence.

These modern 'rpg' gamers will never cease to amaze me.

Why we can't have nice things. [http://www.xbox360forum.com/xbox-forum/threads/114253-how-to-i-kill-a-FRIGGEN-DEATHCLAW]

"okay guise so i went to this town, everyone in the town said don't go north, you will be eaten by deathclaw, i went north, i was eat by deathclaw. game is too hard. wat do?"

EDIT: Found a better link. My favorite part is his four Call of Duty pins.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Why we can't have nice things. [http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/959558-/56973052]

"okay guise so i went to this town, everyone in the town said don't go north, you will be eaten by deathclaw, i went north, i was eat by deathclaw. game is too hard. wat do?"

Gotta love old-school like game design

"lets not make content that the player can actually play as they get there, lets railraod them down a narrow corridor by placing higher level enemies on all sides of the road we don't want them to go down so they have to backtrack later on in the game to see the things they missed when we could have just let them go there in the first place"

Gotta love arbitrary content denial.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Gotta love old-school like game design

"lets not make content that the player can actually play as they get there, lets railraod them down a narrow corridor by placing higher level enemies on all sides of the road we don't want them to go down so they have to backtrack later on in the game to see the things they missed when we could have just let them go there in the first place"

I don't know about you, but I like games that reward knowing when to fight and when not to fight. I get that it sort of interferes with some people's power fantasies when some enemies need to be evaded or avoided, but I personally enjoy a game that will occasionally throw these "oh, shit, there's no way I can take that thing" moments at you.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I don't know about you, but I like games that reward knowing when to fight and when not to fight. I get that it sort of interferes with some people's power fantasies when some enemies need to be evaded or avoided, but I personally enjoy a game that will occasionally throw these "oh, shit, there's no way I can take that thing" moments at you.

I don't mind that either. In fact I enjoy that quite often, and I do think the level scaling system in Skyrim, which does on occasion put enemies several level higher then you at the end of dungeons, needs to do so more frequently.

However I do mind devs blocking off giant tracts on either side of the main road for the entire bottom half of he games map for no reason besides to railroad and not give you any hint or indication your not supposed to go there.

Minus the Sloan deathclaw warning, there was never anyone who warned my of the nest of giant radscorpions to the one side of the road, or the crater with 3 Feral Ghoul Reavers that are there from the start of the game

 

[SajuukKhar]

Level scaling is the lazy way to try and balance the game. It's one of the most retarded and unsatisfying mechanics ever put into RPGs.

What the hell is the damn point to even playing or building a character up if everything is on your level ?

I've been playing RPGs since the early 80's and it makes me cringe when i hear the words level scaling.

Sounds like you give up easily if your not able to roll over everything easily and then blame the game for railroading you in a certain direction. Gimmie a fuckin break.

Except level scaling in Skyim doesn't make everything your level, it adds a mix of things that are below, at, and above your level, which most being at your level.

 

[Mr. Eff_v1legacy]

When I saw this thread I couldn't suppress a smirk.

Heh. Captcha: heated debate

when I heard Capcom say that with the new Resi Evil they're branching out to the CoD fanbase

Ugh. I knew the series was losing alot of its horror elements and this was their goal, it's still depressing to hear it said from them. I love Resident Evil, and horror in general, so it's very distressing to hear it from a series like RE. Silent Hill is a recent casualty, and I dread the day an on rails Fatal Frame a la Pokemon Snap is made.
On the other hand, I have barely played any RPGs (Fallout 3 and I'm running through Dragon Age: Origins) but in the case of Bioware, I can see where alot of the disappointment is coming from.

Captcha: thinking cap

 

[Sangnz]

Knee jerk reaction to that statement for me is normally "great another game is being dumbed down"

I honestly don't mind UI streamlining and improving ease of use but in the never ending stream of game franchises being made accessible to wider audiences has become synonomus with PC games being dragged to the console market and quite honestly suffering because of it.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I don't know about you, but I like games that reward knowing when to fight and when not to fight. I get that it sort of interferes with some people's power fantasies when some enemies need to be evaded or avoided, but I personally enjoy a game that will occasionally throw these "oh, shit, there's no way I can take that thing" moments at you.

I don't mind that either. I enjoy that quite often, and I do think the level scaling in skyrim, which does on occasion put enemies several level higher then you at the end of dungeons, to do so more frequently.

I do mind however devs blocking off giant tracts on either side of the main road for the entire bottom half of he games map for no reason.

Where else would you recommend they put the big predators that canonically are part of the Fallout ecosystem? Should they just not exist until the player reaches the level arbitrarily determined to be high enough to take them?

Part of the Fallout experience is being in a world where there are actually dangerous things out there. It's a bad idea to hike through deathclaw country, it's a bad idea to hang out near intense radiation, and it's a bad idea to show up at an area controlled by one of the factions and start shooting. (Until you're very powerful and heavily armed.) It's okay for things like these to exist in Fallout games.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Where else would you recommend they put the big predators that canonically are part of the Fallout ecosystem? Should they just not exist until the player reaches the level arbitrarily determined to be high enough to take them?

Part of the Fallout experience is being in a world where there are actually dangerous things out there. It's a bad idea to hike through deathclaw country, it's a bad idea to hang out near intense radiation, and it's a bad idea to show up at an area controlled by one of the factions and start shooting. (Until you're very powerful and heavily armed.) It's okay for things like these to exist in Fallout games.

There is a difference between putting stronger monsters in the world and then placing them on both sides of low leveled area of a pre-determined path.

If they are going to railroad us like they did in New Vegas the high levle monsters should be in thier own little pockets around the world not
-deathclaws/cazadors directly north of the starting area
-Feral Ghoul Revers 5 feet to the west of Primm
-6 or so Giant radscorpions slightly north north-east of the mojave outpost

All low level areas.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Where else would you recommend they put the big predators that canonically are part of the Fallout ecosystem? Should they just not exist until the player reaches the level arbitrarily determined to be high enough to take them?

Part of the Fallout experience is being in a world where there are actually dangerous things out there. It's a bad idea to hike through deathclaw country, it's a bad idea to hang out near intense radiation, and it's a bad idea to show up at an area controlled by one of the factions and start shooting. (Until you're very powerful and heavily armed.) It's okay for things like these to exist in Fallout games.

There is a difference between putting stronger monsters in the world and then placing them on both sides of low leveled area of a pre-determined path.

If they are going to railroad us like they did in New Vegas the high levle monsters should be in thier own little pockets around the world not
-deathclaws/cazadors directly north of the starting area
-Feral Ghoul Revers 5 feet to the west of Primm
-6 or so Giant radscorpions slightly north north-east of the mojave outpost

All low level areas.

See, I liked that bit at the beginning. You're going from town to town and surveying each section of road with your binoculars to figure out whether you can kill or go around the creatures/bandits/etc ahead of you, or whether you should go a different way. Staying alive depends on thinking ahead and listening to advice from other survivors. In other words, the game mechanics make you feel like a survivor in a dangerous nuclear wasteland.

 

[lemiel14n3]

Depends, is the press statement coming from EA? because then I assume they're going to rip a series apart and turn it into dreck designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Either by not giving the development team enough time to finish the game, turning it into a confused, nonsensical mess, or by making a mandatory stupid ending.

Bitter? Me?

 

[SajuukKhar]

See, I liked that bit at the beginning. You're going from town to town and surveying each section of road with your binoculars to figure out whether you can kill or go around the creatures/bandits/etc ahead of you, or whether you should go a different way. Staying alive depends on thinking ahead and listening to advice from other survivors. In other words, the game mechanics make you feel like a survivor in a dangerous nuclear wasteland.

Unfortunate that no one tells you about 95% of the dangerous areas, besides the Sloan-Deathclaw example I don't really remember anyone telling me about any of the giant rad-scorpion infested areas, or the places with all the feral ghoul revers.

I guess NCR guys warning me of the fiends at vault 3 counts but those are practically low level bandits and not much of a real threat.

I wouldn't have minded it HAD they done that, in fact that would have solved almost all the problems I had with them doing it, but most of the time there was no forewarning, no way to tell if over the next hill the devs decided to randomly place 5-6 giant radscorps or super mutants because they wanted to railroad you somewhere else.

New Vegas, for the most part, consisted of throwing darts on the map and saying guess ill try here.

Hell they did have signs saying DOT DO THIS WAY DEATHCLAWS or more general DON'T GO THIS WAY signs north of Goodsprings were the cazadors are and that was cool.

if they had the time to put those up it makes sense that someone would have bother with a "Feral Ghoul Reavers" this way sign next to primm or so on.
.
.
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Beyond that Fallout hasn't been about a scary unpredictable nuclear wasteland since the first 1. It has been about the rebuilding of civilization. It is kinda silly that the NCR has been able to go out all this way yet cant put up one or two signs here or there.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Unfortunate that no one tells you about 95% of the dangerous areas, besides the Sloan-Deathclaw example I don't really remember anyone telling me about any of the giant rad-scorpion infested areas, or the places with all the feral ghoul revers.

I guess NCR guys warning me of the fiends at vault 3 counts but those are practically low level bandits and not much of a real threat.

I wouldn't have minded it HAD they done that, in fact that would have solved almost all the problems I had with them doing it, but most of the time there was no forewarning, no way to tell if over the next hill the devs decided to randomly place 5-6 giant radscorps or super mutants because they wanted to railroad you somewhere else.

That's why the binoculars are one of the best early-game items. Forewarned is forearmed. You get a good viewpoint, look around, see a radioactive scorpion the size of a Volkswagen, and think to yourself: "hm. Maybe I shouldn't go that way."

In other words, Obsidian balanced the game around the assumption that the player would think ahead and use a little common sense. I like that in a developer.

Beyond that Fallout hasn't been about a scary unpredictable nuclear wasteland since the first 1. It has been about the rebuilding of civilization.

It can't be a game about the rebuilding of civilization in a scary unpredictable nuclear wasteland?

 

[Redweaver]

In most cases it means "we're dumbing it down because there are a lot more dumb people in the world and we want more money"

Just look at new Hitman.

Pretty much this. It's simple numbers.

At least half the world is average.
And half of what's left is below average.

So it basically only sucks for the above average and they don't care about a tiddling minority.

 

[Netrigan]

See, I liked that bit at the beginning. You're going from town to town and surveying each section of road with your binoculars to figure out whether you can kill or go around the creatures/bandits/etc ahead of you, or whether you should go a different way. Staying alive depends on thinking ahead and listening to advice from other survivors. In other words, the game mechanics make you feel like a survivor in a dangerous nuclear wasteland.

Unfortunate that no one tells you about 95% of the dangerous areas, besides the Sloan-Deathclaw example I don't really remember anyone telling me about any of the giant rad-scorpion infested areas, or the places with all the feral ghoul revers.

I guess NCR guys warning me of the fiends at vault 3 counts but those are practically low level bandits and not much of a real threat.

I wouldn't have minded it HAD they done that, in fact that would have solved almost all the problems I had with them doing it, but most of the time there was no forewarning, no way to tell if over the next hill the devs decided to randomly place 5-6 giant radscorps or super mutants because they wanted to railroad you somewhere else.

New Vegas, for the most part, consisted of throwing darts on the map and saying guess ill try here.

Hell they did have signs saying DOT DO THIS WAY DEATHCLAWS or more general DON'T GO THIS WAY signs north of Goodsprings were the cazadors are and that was cool.

if they had the time to put those up it makes sense that someone would have bother with a "Feral Ghoul Reavers" this way sign next to primm or so on.
.
.
.
Beyond that Fallout hasn't been about a scary unpredictable nuclear wasteland since the first 1. It has been about the rebuilding of civilization. It is kinda silly that the NCR has been able to go out all this way yet cant put up one or two signs here or there.

Seems like that's the sort of thing you could include on maps. Just put some sort of shading effect on the area and a description "Here Be Monsters". Borderlands did something similar having level rankings for different parts of the map so you didn't accidentally wander into a region beyond your skill level.

I like having a basic level scaling so you can visit most areas in whatever order you wish and be certain of a reasonably challenging encounter... but I really did like that New Vegas had a few No Go Areas to mix things up. Sometimes it was fun to wander into such areas just to see how you measured up.

 

[SajuukKhar]

That's why the binoculars are one of the best early-game items. Forewarned is forearmed. You get a good viewpoint, look around, see a radioactive scorpion the size of a Volkswagen, and think to yourself: "hm. Maybe I shouldn't go that way."

In other words, Obsidian balanced the game around the assumption that the player would think ahead and use a little common sense. I like that in a developer.

Would have been nice had I not needed a mod to get the binoculars to actually zoom in on things and not just place a silly overlay on the screen.

It can't be a game about the rebuilding of civilization in a scary unpredictable nuclear wasteland?

Considering that said civilizations have been steam rolling out the wildlands to make them safe, as is commented on by many people in the game, it isnt unreasonable that they would throw up a sign or two in the places with the really dangerous monsters you shouldn't go near.

Seems like that's the sort of thing you could include on maps. Just put some sort of shading effect on the area and a description "Here Be Monsters". Borderlands did something similar having level rankings for different parts of the map so you didn't accidentally wander into a region beyond your skill level.

I like having a basic level scaling so you can visit most areas in whatever order you wish and be certain of a reasonably challenging encounter... but I really did like that New Vegas had a few No Go Areas to mix things up. Sometimes it was fun to wander into such areas just to see how you measured up.

I liked several of New vegas's no-go areas

That Cazador canyon that starts near Jacobs town and goes around red-rock canyon, or that Deathclaw hive on the east side of the map were you could find the power armor, or The Devil's Throat crater on the North-East part of the map full of centaurs and a super mutant or two.

I liked them because they weren't arbitrarily placed near low level main path areas in some unneeded attempt to punish player for going there before the devs wanted them too with no way for the player to know that because there was no warning of any kind.

 

[Kahunaburger]

That's why the binoculars are one of the best early-game items. Forewarned is forearmed. You get a good viewpoint, look around, see a radioactive scorpion the size of a Volkswagen, and think to yourself: "hm. Maybe I shouldn't go that way."

In other words, Obsidian balanced the game around the assumption that the player would think ahead and use a little common sense. I like that in a developer.

Would have been nice had I not needed a mod to get the binoculars to actually zoom in on things and not just place a silly overlay on the screen.

The first thing I do when I install a game that went through Bethesda QA is to slap the community patch on it. Saves time and aggravation. If you don't have the binocs or are playing the game on a console, your eyes get the job done, too.

It can't be a game about the rebuilding of civilization in a scary unpredictable nuclear wasteland?

Considering that said civilizations have been steam rolling out the wildlands to make them safe, as is commented on by many people in the game, it isnt unreasonable that they would throw up a sign or two in the places with the really dangerous monsters you shouldn't go near.

Don't people tell you to stay on the road? If there was a reason not to go up a particular road, you're generally forewarned. I also now have an image of an NCR sign brigade. "Putting signs all over the Mojave for the benefit of people who are used to level scaling almost makes you wish for nuclear winter."

 

[SajuukKhar]

The first thing I do when I install a game that went through Bethesda QA is to slap the community patch on it. Saves time and aggravation. If you don't have the binocs or are playing the game on a console, your eyes get the job done, too.

To bad the community patch didn't come out till after I had beaten the entire base game.

Don't people tell you to stay on the road? If there was a reason not to go up a particular road, you're generally forewarned. I also now have an image of an NCR sign brigade. "Putting signs all over the Mojave for the benefit of people who are used to level scaling almost makes you wish for nuclear winter."

I don't want them everywhere, just in places that make sense like place one next to Primm that says WARNING THERE'S FERAL GHOUL REVERS LIKE 10 FEET WEST OF THE CITY DON'T GO THERE.

Also if you stick only to the road you aren't going to be doing much of any of the exploring the game touts itself as having.

If they wanted to make the game linear they should have made it linear. Don't make an open world game and then force a liner path on top of it, that is just plain shitty game design.