What about the queer female gamers?

[ryuutchi]

And you never wish you could read anything with a gay protagonist? Or watch a movie with a gay protagonist? It's not about being a target audience (well, maybe a little) except insofar as everyone should be a target audience.

Hell, I mean, someone mentioned a few pages back that it's sort of insulting to white, straight guys that the market assumes they can't identify with anyone but another white straight guy. Why isn't there more representation? Not only is it good for gay gamers to see characters they/we identify with, but it's good for everyone to have characters of more than one basic type.

Nah dude, read my post. I'm saying that games with gay protagonists would be cool. But I don't think that a game should be designed to cater to a gay audience. That's just fucking patronising, not to mention insulting.

But nobody said they should. Just that representation would be nice.

 

[theultimateend]

As glad as I am that the Escapist's topic this month focused on gays in the gaming community, I found it both interesting and a little depressing that "gays in gaming" apparently means "gay men in gaming". And beyond that, the focus on non-gender-normative male characters seems a little odd for the topic-- non-gender-normative men aren't necessarily gay (and I found Robert Yang's focus on "I'm not making you do girly things when you're being gay" a little off-putting because not only does it derogate gay men who like feminine activities, it derogates straight men, and women of all sexual orientations who do enjoy those activities.)

General critique over, what about the gay women? We're not represented either, except insofar as some guys want to watch two women make out (for the men's pleasure, natch, conventionally attractive women only, please). When do we get long-winded articles about the lack of representation?

I'm a huge fan of homosexuality, while being heterosexual, I completely understand the reasoning and the likely biological mechanics.

Also on a much less intricate and more blunt level I think lesbians are awesome.

So I don't think a thread, at least written by me, would be controversial enough to blow anyone who isn't against homosexuality away.

 

[JanatUrlich]

But nobody said they should. Just that representation would be nice.

Those articles said they would. Are we not still talking about the articles?

Well I'm just fucking lost now XD

 

[Archemetis]

The Western Societies Straight people who're comfortable with their sexuality were also conspicuously absent from the spectrum of discussion this month, Do you see me asking why?
No.

This issue was based on a generalised portion, and if I'm honest it's hard to think of a lesbian protagonist/antagonist from a game on the spot. Homosexuality when directed towards males is widely consdered more a "hot topic" in today's society, and beyond that, when I hear the term "Gay" or "Homosexual" I direct towards both genders...

Just because there are more male examples of homosexual characters in gaming doesn't mean the female side are completely forgotten.

 

[ryuutchi]

But nobody said they should. Just that representation would be nice.

Those articles said they would. Are we not still talking about the articles?

Well I'm just fucking lost now XD

Which article said that there should be games specifically for gay men? They all sounded to me like they were talking about the lack of representation, and how that affects the gay gamer, not that a gay character should be created only for gay gamers.

The Western Societies Straight people who're comfortable with their sexuality were also conspicuously absent from the spectrum of discussion this month, Do you see me asking why?
No.

Would you like to know why? That's because they're conspicuously apparent every OTHER week. Please note Robert Yang's comment that The Escapist editors asked him to remove all references to his preference for men in his OKCupid article. Straight people are normal and readily apparent at all other times.

 

[JanatUrlich]

Which article said that there should be games specifically for gay men? They all sounded to me like they were talking about the lack of representation, and how that affects the gay gamer, not that a gay character should be created only for gay gamers.

Pretty much all of the articles were arguing for more games geared towards gay gamers. You can say what you want, but that's the way I, and I'm sure many others, interpreted them. It's cool if you wanna defend the articles or whatever, we're each entitled to our own opinion. I just wanted to state that I found many of the points made to be patronising and ridiculous. I believe that characters should be left as intended originally by Japanese developers but I also believe that making characters gay for no reason other than to please gay gamers would end up feeling contrived and pointless. Unless it furthers the plot in some way or something.

 

[Undeadpool]

One of my gay friend bemoaned the lack of homosexual male romance in Mass Effect. Now while I'll agree that Mass Effect didn't have a very genuine or even natural romance system regardless of which way you swing, but his point struck an interesting chord, especially since you could have a lesbian relationship. I believe his exact words were "Those stupid frat boys get their bullshit titillation, where's mine!?"
I think one of the issues is that a lot of developers are afraid to tackle it for fear of misrepresenting someone since I'm not sure how many game developers are gay (but I'm going to go out on a limb and say not very many). Also, gaming is just now getting mainstream acceptance and nothing grates on the mainstream like homosexuality these days, so it's highly possible that they're just playing it safe. I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just saying how I see it.

 

[Sovvolf]

.........

Small question hear Ryuutchi, is there any answer your willing to except, I've read up to page 3 and I may need to read further but you just don't seem to accept any answer. I would try to give you an answer but from reading your post you've given me the impression that because I'm straight and mainly because I'm male, that you wont accept and answer from me or any one else in the same circumstance... now I'm not going to bother writing down an answer until I know that your not going to debunk the answer for mentioned circumstances, you seem to just be a man hater... prove me wrong.

 

[Phoenix Arrow]

No man would ever insult a lesbian.

Gay/bisexual men wouldn't give a crap and neither would the straight men that wouldn't give a crap about gay men. The ones who would go "lolfag" would be secretly masterbating while you talk to them. Worst you'd get is a 13 year old boy saying "so... what does vagina taste like?"
You're not represented, no. But do you need to be? Do gay men need to be?

I'm fond of hammocks and you know what? I don't feel people who like hammocks are well represented in the gaming community. Honestly, I'd make a thread about it but the admins wouldn't understand and I'd be banned. But it's the same principle. You like women over men? So what? Who gives a shit?

Before someone calls me ignorant or insensitive or whatever, I'll play the bissexual card early on and I'll also say that I'm what you'd call a "male feminist". I strive for equality in all fields so to me this is like... why campaign for equal rights if you complain when you don't get special treatment? It's so hypocritical, it's absurd.

Watch as my post gets ignored because I'm unbelievably right, noone has anything to argue about. I kid.

 

[WlknCntrdiction]

This is what always happens when one demographic is addressed when another is not, you always get the other side of the coin wanting attention, it's annoying. I'll give the same answer as I do to every girl gamer who starts a "there are girl gamers!!" threads every once in a while, get over it. You're not special, you're not some kind of special minority that needs to be coddled and looked after like a 2 year old who's constantly puking and shitting everywhere, you're grown men/women who should be able to man/woman the fuck up and brush a small insult off your shoulder and continue with your life.
People are going to get in your face and be ignorant, it's a fact of life, you may not like it but hey I don't like it when I'm out in a hoody trying to keep warm but everyone gives me a wide berth because they think I'm going to mug them when I'm perhaps the nicest, respectful and likeable black guy I(and others)could know, I allow them to live in their ignorant shells, you should do the same and let it be and just play games and be happy, not going "whaaaaaaaa!!!" everytime someone doesn't give you attention and coverage or doesn't feel to include you in some way.

The simple fact that I say to everyone who complains about insults over Live and the Internet is that if you can't handle them on the Internet where you don't know the person, the person doesn't know you and they call you something which you can't take then you might as well hang yourself with the Xbox controller cord now because there are far worse people in real life that you will meet who will seek to destroy your career, to make your life hell and not give a shit and you won't be able to stand up for yourself because you're too busy complaining over something which in the grand scheme of things is insignificant. Leave the assholes to their own devices and focus on you.

 

[Chess__x]

*sigh* I can't grasp why you're complaining. 'Gay' generally covers both men and women, 'lesbian' just makes things a bit more specific. I've only scanned those articles but they don't seem too gender-specific to me. & I'm sure everyone's smart enough to read what they're saying about the general 'lack of gay' in games and realise that applies to both genders.

Personally, I don't much care what sexuality my character in a game would be but here's some things to think about:
- Games are always going to be designed to appeal to as many people as possible in the target market and it's always going to be the case that gay people are a minority.
- Most games don't actually contain a love plot and when they do, it's not like you're forced to walk up to the character and 'press A to make out' so gay people shouldn't feel uncomfortable. (Sims being the exception, where I do think gay relationships should be allowed if the user wants... but then you'd just complain that you couldn't adopt a child)
- How is it any different from girl gamers playing as guys? Which is normally the case. In fact... thinking about it you've got it good. In most games you play a male and so if you're going after a female, it's basically the same thing. Does it matter all too much what your character looks like? For that reason I'm concluding that lesbians actually have it better than gay men in terms of games.

But I still have a little more to say...
- Women are rarely the lead characters in games, and when they are - women don't like the games. I'm a girl and I know plenty of girl gamers, and barely anyone wants to play as a girl. So I wouldn't want them forcing lesbian action into games because then I wouldn't be as interested.

Anyway I'd mostly like to reiterate the point that lesbians have it better than gay guys - if you're playing as a straight man, but you're a girl playing the game, it's kinda the same as being a lesbian. So don't complain.

 

[The_ModeRazor]

What about them?
Really, noone cares about gay people anymore, but sometimes it seems that they WANT to be talked about.

 

[similar.squirrel]

It's probably widely assumed that those of the lesbian persuasion tend to go in for macho boys' stuff.
naturally, that's not an accurate view, but fitting gay men into such a testosterone-oriented medium is more of a challenge.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

This is what always happens when one demographic is addressed when another is not, you always get the other side of the coin wanting attention, it's annoying. I'll give the same answer as I do to every girl gamer who starts a "there are girl gamers!!" threads every once in a while, get over it. You're not special, you're not some kind of special minority that needs to be coddled and looked after like a 2 year old who's constantly puking and shitting everywhere, you're grown men/women who should be able to man/woman the fuck up and brush a small insult off your shoulder and continue with your life.

This is exactly what I am getting at. I personally don't give a damn about sexuality in computer games, the same way I don't care about sexuality in most movies. Because either it is tacked on as a gimmick (Beowulf's "Hey it is a naked Angelina Jolie!" and the Witcher sex-cards spring to mind) or it is so well-integrated (or absent) into the story/game that you won't be picking it out anyway (the romance in Outcast, Call of Dutys lack of romance). In the case of gimmicky sexuality, it is obviously aimed at a particular target audience most of the time and since I usually ain't part of it, I don't feel like complaining.

It is like if I would go see a Disney movie and then come out the other side and say I didn't think it reflected the harsh, brutal reality of gang warfare and thus suck. I am playing games where the target audience usually is five years younger, living across the world and of a diffrent gender. The games give them what they want and if I don't like what the games offer, I shouldn't play them. It seems easy enough to me.

 

[Therumancer]

It's political. To be fairly honest very few people care about lesbians in general. Guys are either turned on by it, or don't care as it has nothing to do with them. Women can use it as an insult, but in general don't care that much about it either if they aren't involved.

While I won't say it's never happened, I can't think of many examples outside of fantasy (oftentimes directed at men) where lesbians have attacked and raped children especially in the pre-sexual age groups.

Yet when it comes to gay men, the same cannot be said. When you hear about gay sexual assault it's inevitably involving men, and despite Lesbianism having been prevelent you'll notice that back in say ancient Greece you didn't have young girls being run down and captured as homosexual sex slaves the same way you had it going on with boys. This is incidently where the term "Greeking" comes from (though it doesn't nessicarly have a pedophille connotation).

In general it's the gay men that get the serious opposition when it comes to gay rights. Despite what the media might imply it's not all religious fantatics and such, nor misguided "homophobes" who dislike them for no reason other than being differant (actually most involved have reasons and frequently they have little to do with religion).

You whip out lesbian characters and such and most people are going to go "meh". I mean heck, 90% of the time when you have romance options in games you have guys asking if there is a lesbian option. Not to mention the mountains of hentai out there (where hetero and lesbian seriously seems to outnumber Yaoi). So basically someone brings up lesbianism, you get a little bit of noise like with Mass Effect, and not much happens. Bring in gay men, and well... it's a bigger deal and gets more attention.

Given that the purpose of such articles is specifically to garner attention, and whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the majority of anti-gay sentiment is men against gay men, you need to focus on gay men to really make a serious issue on gay rights.

Agree or disagree, I'm not going to argue it. The point is that if they ever decided to do an article on "lesbians in gaming" it would likely lead to a totally differant tone than the more directly disputed issue of gay men.

Truthfully, I'd imagine that if you ever seriously wanted to address the issue of lesbianism in gaming it would tend to get into things like how most of the lesbianism you see is intended to appeal to men more so than actual lesbians (although there can be overlap, you can oftentimes tell the target audience by the tone).

Also like with gay men, there isn't just one "type" of lesbian. While the stereotype is a somewhat pathetic pseudo-male (at least in the butch role) or women too ugly to land a guy, that's hardly the extent of it, especially when you start dealing with the artsy types. Not all lesbians are feminists either.

 

[ryuutchi]

Small question hear Ryuutchi, is there any answer your willing to except, I've read up to page 3 and I may need to read further but you just don't seem to accept any answer. I would try to give you an answer but from reading your post you've given me the impression that because I'm straight and mainly because I'm male, that you wont accept and answer from me or any one else in the same circumstance... now I'm not going to bother writing down an answer until I know that your not going to debunk the answer for mentioned circumstances, you seem to just be a man hater... prove me wrong.

Hell, I could bend over backwards to try and "prove" to you that I'm not a man-hater, merely irritated by ignorance, and if I said something you disagreed with that could be construed as "insulting men" (insofar as "insulting men" can cause any real harm in the context of a community that privileges men and decries female experiences) you'd blow me off as a "man-hater".

I respect men. However, men's experiences are, on the whole, still given primacy-- as they were in this particular issue of The Escapist. If that statement of fact, which is at the basis of everything I've said this entire thread, is man-hating, then I suppose a man-hater I'll be.

instead of either saying that lesbians aren't represented or that they don't need representing, has anyone actually read the articles? they're written from personal experience. has it struck anyone else that the reason they didn't have a lesbian gamer article might be that the escapist doesn't have any lesbian writers and no other lesbians have cared enough to submit an article? see? its a little less discriminatory than assuming they've deliberately ignored you and certainly a LOT less discriminatory than them sitting every female employee down and asking them if they're gay enough to write the article.

You have a point, however, even in Alice Bonasio's article, which did a wonderful job exploring the situation of gay players and game developers, there was not even a passing mention. It's less that I expected The Escapist to track down someone, as I felt the need to point out the deafening silence. I don't know what sort of submissions they got, but the fact is that in the end, lesbians got a passing mention in the editor's note, and that's it. And it bothered me. Clearly, it didn't bother many people (clearly many people think this article shouldn't have happened at all), but there it is.