What do people actually want male gamers to be like?

[Beliyal]

2. Is it a faction at all (as in an organized movement) or just some people saying shit?

Mostly people saying shit, i wasn't addressing anyone in paricular.

Like i said, i myself want more varied protagonists, i sometimes just can't help sighing when readying it again and again.

Spoiler

While constantly repeating the same criticism over and over again can be tiresome, I can't really say it isn't deserved. This picture can perhaps get boring, but it's still relevant and it still shows the overwhelming trends. I'd go so far to say that I find these trends themselves as much more tiresome than people criticizing them. Though I will also say that just talking about this is already a step forward and I won't be as negative to say that there aren't any changes.

 

[carnex]

2. Is it a faction at all (as in an organized movement) or just some people saying shit?

Mostly people saying shit, i wasn't addressing anyone in paricular.

Like i said, i myself want more varied protagonists, i sometimes just can't help sighing when readying it again and again.

Spoiler

Yes that is a bit boring but that cross section of games if targeted specifically so argument is a bit dishonest so I really wouldn't feel bad if I respond to it with equally skewed argument like.

Spoiler

Let's play a game, what's the common thread between this who skewed representation of games?

Could we use more diversity in AAA market? Probably but market would have the final word on that. But is game as medium hurting for every other type of character beside SWD? Not really. Some are really missing but many are covered, you just have to leave land of whales (huge spenders) behind.

 

[minkus_draconus]

I'm sorry I don't see exactly where I was privileged. Everyone hated me in school. I only got my first proper job a few months ago, and had to quit because of anxiety. I was born with aspergers syndrome, and my ineptitude socially and physically has long saw me exiled for not being a real man. Not denying that some people have it worse, but honestly, considering that through my entire life, I have crawled through a river of shit, only now to see one of the only two things that kept me tethered to sanity under threat, you could hardly attempt to insult me more than telling me I'm goddamn privileged.

Let me tell you how easy it is not ever notice the privilege you might have due to gender (male) ethnicity (white) or sexuality (hetero). I'm not saying these all apply to every person in every situation but I am using myself as an example. I had a lot of crap happen growing up (I'm in my 40's now) and life has always felt like a constant run of suffering and Murphy's law (even now).

I just walk around and do my thing. I don't pay much attention to how people at businesses are reacting to me unless service is bad.
I married a black woman. Once she pointed out to me how different things are for her I started noticing a drastic difference in how the same staff interact with her compared to me even when it was obvious we are a couple. My privilege does not extend to her in most cases. I see people go over and try to establish in their mind if she is a threat or shoplifter and then ignore her once they determine she is no threat (even when she is wanting service). I see people address her is a different manner then white females we might be out with. It was eye opening to me. I never saw it because I was oblivious and thinking that how I was treated was how everyone would be treated.

To see this in action go out with friends who are different and actually pay attention to what happens to them when they are not in a group or just with you. It may have something to do with region and such (I live in Ohio) so maybe people in larger cities with more diversity do not get this as much.

 

[Animyr]

you could hardly attempt to insult me more than telling me I'm goddamn privileged.

I think a more accurate way of putting it would be that even as bad as you had it, there were certain difficulties you probably didn't have to deal with. For instance, when you went to play games or participate in nerd/pop culture, did people consistently treat you differently because of your gender?

 

[minkus_draconus]

I just hate being the bad guy because I like games that have a little fanservice in them now and then.

You are not the bad guy.

I think what needs to happen is there be more fanservice for other groups.
I also think that a game should only have fanservice if that was built into the design rather then have it shoehorned in to get part of a demographic or have outraged coverage in news/marketing.

 

[the December King]

You now know, or at least have been informed, that (decent? Actual?) feminists would like you to see that your privilege has, among other possible things, made you the preferred market in the AAA games industry. That might change, at least in the gaming market, if the consumers change.

So, buy what you want.

If you want female protagonists, or protagonists of minorities, or companies run by/ stories written by/devs who are women/minorities, support them.

If you DON'T want those games, that's fine, too... but try to see why it might matter to those people who DO want them. Again, it's about listening to others.

Just be you, relax, and enjoy games.

Oh, and being a decent human being as far as not sending rape threats or harassing others online. But those are qualities that everyone should maintain.

 

[Doclector]

you could hardly attempt to insult me more than telling me I'm goddamn privileged.

I think a more accurate way of putting it would be that even as bad as you had it, there were certain difficulties you probably didn't have to deal with. For instance, when you went to play games or participate in nerd/pop culture, did people consistently treat you differently because of your gender?

No, instead they just hated me for no reason that I ever understood, nor any reason they'd actually tell me when I asked.

Is it really all that different? Honestly, the moment you call me privileged, you lose me. I know you don't care all that much whether you lose me, but there's no way you're gonna make me of all people buy into it. Yeah, maybe there's some you could call genuinely privileged. People who never really had to engage with real life, David Cameron and similar people born with silver spoons in their goddamn mouths.

And really, if you're gonna say that privilege is having something bad NOT happen to me, that isn't that rather a negative message? Not getting catcalled ain't a privilege, it should be a right.

I understand that it's unfair to people who aren't me. What I don't understand is why making it better for them means making things worse for me. I wouldn't lose anything from equality.

This is a complex issue, not sure I can properly explain it. You'd lose the benefits you gain from inequality. Admittedly, most of these aren't really tangible, they are just the comfort of a status quo that favours yourself. It's very easy to confuse the way things are with the normal, natural way that things ought to be.

For example, you'll often hear that PoC are taking over the country (whichever country happens to being talked about). Because, if you were to take all the different PoC and add them up, they aren't such a minority as they used to be. Or all the gays on TV, because not absolutely everyone on TV is straight. This is strange and confronting and "wrong" to people who've grown up used to things not being this way.

Now, I must strongly stress that this applies to myself the same way. I've got a fair few privileges myself (and these are just the ones I recognise/admit to), and they trip me up a lot.

I am losing something from whatever the hell is happening here.

You're losing your preferred status, your defaultness...or at least a small part of it. You're also losing not being able to see the problem, which is also painful. Everyone is in favour of equality (in a vague nebulous sense), but having to look at the inequality isn't fun. Having to admit to benefiting from it really isn't fun.

Every time there is any push for equality, people in the privileged group will fight against it. Not just moustache twirling villain types (though you get those), ordinary, otherwise decent people. Including some nominally fighting for equality. They can't or won't see that there is a problem.

It's very, very common for privileged people, once they start caring about some inequality, to join some discussion about it, and try to be helpful by explaining the inequality to people suffering from it, decide how they should go about combating it, and generally trying to make it about themselves. Without realising they are doing so, because, even though they've intellectually grasped the problem, it still seems normal and natural for people like them to be somehow more important. I've had a fair few cringeworthy moments of chiming in and needing to be forcefully told to stop myself.

I hope this has made some kind of sense.

You haven't answered the question. Why do I have to be insulted and ridiculed in order to make things equal? You're not really listening here, I don't give a damn. It's never been a problem to me of there being more women/POC/whatever in games/movies/tv/etc. You're assuming that. I don't have a problem with that, I welcome it. It's the whole "Male gamers are all assholes" message that I don't agree with, and y'know what? You're never going to get me to believe that somehow, continuing to support that message is going to make everything okay.

 

[Doclector]

Speaking as a male gamer, I think the world would just prefer more of us simply try not to be assholes. That means a lot of things, chef among them (so far as female gamers are concerned) would be to stop referencing gender in an insulting way at all. I know not everyone does this, and hell it could just be a minority, but the "get in the kitchen" spewing assholes whose automatic response to anything even remotely critical a woman has to say about games is sexist crap and or rape/assault threats are certainly a VOCAL minority. Beyond that "we" as a culture need to cut a lot of the crap out of our language that could be very offense to others, even if we don't mean it that way.

For example it gets under my skin when black comedians start throwing out cracker jokes. I know they are just joking around, and largely within their own communities and fanbases, but it still annoys me. So I can totally relate to how some of these people feel when they just happen across casual gamer speak. A good reference point is Movie Bob's "Not Okay" entry in his Big Picture series. Its old, but still (sadly) holds up. And even if you disagree to if something or other should be tolerated or is just a joke, the number one thing you need to remember to not be a gamer-asshole is this; it isn't about you. Nobody sees themselves as assholes, unless it is some ironic anarchist statement. Being an asshole isn't a label you decide on, it is one assigned to you by others. And in this world of ever connected social media and constant updates being deemed an asshole can follow you around forever and disrupt your "real life." After all, it might be pretty hard to get that cushy job later in life if the boss' daughter is one of those gamer-girls who've dubbed you an asshole, and the evidence for why is sitting right there on twitter for all the world to see.

So even if you disagree, even if you don't see a problem, or even if you feel like you're being censored it is still very much in your best interest to play nice. Also, it would help not to make angry forum posts demanding "what do you want?" and thus passive aggressively asserting that "they" (in this case female gamers, as your thread specifically references your gender) are the problem. Basically calling someone who ultimately just wants the basic respect due any other human being the real problem is grounds for being called an asshole.

A year. A whole goddamn year I've been putting up with this. Wouldn't you be angry when you've been walking on eggshells for that long and then more is demanded of you?

 

[Phasmal]

A year. A whole goddamn year I've been putting up with this. Wouldn't you be angry when you've been walking on eggshells for that long and then more is demanded of you?

Can I just ask you a straight up blunt question?

What do you WANT from this thread?

Are you hoping that no one will ever mention male gamers negatively ever again? Cause that's not gonna happen.

You seem to be flip-flopping on it a bit.
Sometimes it seems like you've realised that literally everyone gets shit talked about them and if you were in any other demographic you'd probably be just as upset, and that you shouldn't take all this to heart.

But then you just go back again to being insulted and upset.

 

[KrystelCandy]

Spoiler

Let's play a game, what's the common thread between this who skewed representation of games?

Could we use more diversity in AAA market? Probably but market would have the final word on that. But is game as medium hurting for every other type of character beside SWD? Not really. Some are really missing but many are covered, you just have to leave land of whales (huge spenders) behind.

Oh dear, the longer I watched this video the more my mouth dropped open.

Half the characters are from "choose your own hero" games, and LoL has received its own SIGNIFICANT criticism on its female hero designs. Another 1/3rd are from RPG's and includes VILLAINS, and characters who are NOT the primary protaganist.

Nobody ever argued female characters don't exist, just that they are few and tend to be similar. Don't even get me started on female protaganist portrayal in japanese games who are a culture that cling even more tightly to traditional gender roles than the US does.

Isn't hatsune mikune a vocaloid?

This video... are you seriously thinking it supports your point about women in games? It's horrifying, there's a few I didn't recognize but if were going for "games most people have not heard of" we can dumb the market even MORE favorably towards male demographic. And again, most of those women while protaganists were not the primary protaganist and tended to be RPGs where you have a fair selection of characters (most of which casts were not female dominated to begin with).

I mean it OPENS with mocking Anita Sarkeesian with a caricature portrait and you're using it as serious evidence?

 

[carnex]

-snip-

Actually I do have to correct you in one thing. If any gaming industry section has a diverse female characters, it's Japan. Yep, the tend to be heavy on domestic side but they have every type under the sky in their games.

Also, read what I wrote. I already said video is dishonest but not nearly as much as you presented it.

 

[Thorn14]

Japan is also the only place to have video games that 100% appeal to women (and maybe gay males) with otome games and BL games.

 

[Animyr]

Honestly, the moment you call me privileged, you lose me.

I deliberately avoided doing that. But the existence of numerous influential biases that have nothing to do with gender that doesn't change the fact that some people are still treated differently because of their gender, and you (it seems) weren't one of them. Note that I didn't say you weren't treated unfairly in general. It's just that it's gendered treatment that's the topic here. I think.

And really, if you're gonna say that privilege is having something bad NOT happen to me, that isn't that rather a negative message? Not getting catcalled ain't a privilege, it should be a right.

I've seen others put it that way too. I don't know the exact history of the phrase "male privilege," although offhand, I suppose it would refer to the idea that straight white men are the only people who have the status of "default," which I suppose could be construed as a privilege. But yes, I do think "right" is a better term to use in the context of unfair treatment.

 

[Doclector]

A year. A whole goddamn year I've been putting up with this. Wouldn't you be angry when you've been walking on eggshells for that long and then more is demanded of you?

Can I just ask you a straight up blunt question?

What do you WANT from this thread?

Are you hoping that no one will ever mention male gamers negatively ever again? Cause that's not gonna happen.

You seem to be flip-flopping on it a bit.
Sometimes it seems like you've realised that literally everyone gets shit talked about them and if you were in any other demographic you'd probably be just as upset, and that you shouldn't take all this to heart.

But then you just go back again to being insulted and upset.

Because every time I calm down, someone brings up the whole "privilege" thing that I just can't let go unanswered, or tries to explain to me how male gamers getting insulted means we're finally becoming equal in a better way than if nobody was insulted on a mass scale.

What I originally wanted was exactly as said in the title, what did I have to do next to continue to not be exiled from the community. Now? Now I'm just in defensive mode, because what else can I do? I'm not going to change anyone's mind, but I'm not about to let things people say about me just stand.

 

[Phasmal]

Because every time I calm down, someone brings up the whole "privilege" thing that I just can't let go unanswered, or tries to explain to me how male gamers getting insulted means we're finally becoming equal in a better way than if nobody was insulted on a mass scale.

I really can't be arsed to debate the whole privilege thing because you already had a quite long and productive discussion about it with thaluikhain.

But let's just talk about this- how are you being insulted?

Attack pieces in the media painting broad brushes? Ok, I haven't read any of those so I'm just going to assume that NONE of them state that they're talking about male gamers who ACT a certain way. That certainly would be wrong. I'm assuming these all came out in response to something rather than just journalists deciding `fuck all male gamers`- so I'm guessing that they're probably due to some shitty behaviour. But still, it's not nice to have things assumed about you.

What can you do about it? Literally anything. It's not going to hurt you.

It WOULD be better if no one was insulted on a mass scale. But it isn't going to happen because people like to talk shit about each other and generalisations are easy to make.
People didn't just start being pissed at male gamers, people always have been. Because there is always going to be someone who is pissed at a demographic.

Maybe in the future all terrible behaviour from all types of gamer will disappear. And there will STILL be people who hate us.

 

[kyp275]

This is a complex issue, not sure I can properly explain it. You'd lose the benefits you gain from inequality. Admittedly, most of these aren't really tangible, they are just the comfort of a status quo that favours yourself. It's very easy to confuse the way things are with the normal, natural way that things ought to be.

IMO,

The way things are: stuff that has to do with humans.

The normal, natural way that things ought to be: What goes on in the rest of the universe, which doesn't give a damn about what humans do or think.

You're losing your preferred status, your defaultness...or at least a small part of it. You're also losing not being able to see the problem, which is also painful. Everyone is in favour of equality (in a vague nebulous sense), but having to look at the inequality isn't fun. Having to admit to benefiting from it really isn't fun.

Generally agree with you there, however...

It's very, very common for privileged people, once they start caring about some inequality, to join some discussion about it, and try to be helpful by explaining the inequality to people suffering from it, decide how they should go about combating it, and generally trying to make it about themselves. Without realising they are doing so, because, even though they've intellectually grasped the problem, it still seems normal and natural for people like them to be somehow more important. I've had a fair few cringeworthy moments of chiming in and needing to be forcefully told to stop myself.

I hope this has made some kind of sense.

In the context of GG, or just the videogame industry in general and the politicizing of it, this is something I personally found to be a source of great annoyance. Some of the louder voices have gotten so ridiculous that you'd think that the depiction of female characters in game took a literal form, built a time machine, and went back in time and began oppressing women.

As for the whole privilege thing. I'm sorry, but while I agree with you as far as it goes for society as a whole, IMO it's been blown grossly out of proportion in the context of videogames. Gamers are misogynist if they don't "check their privilege" and give a damn about the gender issues in game? To those I say:

Check your Not having to starve today privilege.
Check your Not getting hanged/shot/beheaded for your religion privilege.
Check your Not getting imprisoned for the rest of your life for political reasons privilege.
Check your Not living in adject poverty privilege
Check your Not have to worry about getting blown up or shot every day privilege.
Check your Not getting literally poisoned daily by your government privilege.

No, I'm not saying that their concerns should be ignored or invalidated just because there are worse things happening, but by the same token, I can't help but feel when watching people complain about things like Princess Peach in Mario is like watching some millionaires complaining that the $500 steak wasn't as good as they thought.