What do people actually want male gamers to be like?

[Doclector]

It'd be fine if I could bring myself to believe that privilege isn't a word that harms people, isn't a word that people have started to use simply to shit on other people and belittle them. I've been shit on through my life by a veritable rainbow of human existence, men, women, Black people, White people, Asian people, mixed race people, disabled people, able-bodied people, not once has my position as a straight white male bought me mercy. So I struggle to believe that. I'd just go along with it if I didn't believe it was being used to hurt people, but quite frankly I do.

You really don't think that your being white and being male has not conferred institutional privilege on you at any point during your life?

Please, read the famous White Privilege Checklist from Peggy McIntosh and tell me none of these apply:

Spoiler

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

what area do you live in? Because seriously, I've never heard anybody I know suffering from at least 48 of these. The occasional racist bastard, true, we have th edl, bnp, and ukip, but nobody with half a brain takes them seriously anymore, so they have about as much real power as a cabbage.

 

[Doclector]

Now? Now I don't even know what they fucking want from me. So what is it? What do you want me to do? Do you want me to just agree with Quinn, even though even if the allegations against her are untrue, her behaviour in the entire incident has blatantly illustrated that if nothing else, she's a terrible fucking person? Do you want me to just not talk about it at all? Never mind the bigger problems with male identity in this community. One bunch of people wants me to be alpha, another wants me to be anything but. One bunch of people wants me to come out of my shell, another wants me to stay the fuck inside no matter what. It ain't enough to just try to be a good person, fuck no would anyone on ANY side of this shitstorm want things to be that simple, GOD FUCKING FORBID THAT IT BE AS SIMPLE AS JUST TRYING TO BE A DECENT FUCKING HUMAN BEING. Jesus, ain't as if I was ever an actual misogynist to begin with, I always respected people, but then a bunch of people starting saying that it isn't enough.

First off, I'd like to welcome you to feeling a very small fraction of what females (gamer or not) feel and have felt on a daily basis for the past several thousand years in just about every part of the world.

Second, yes, you ARE supposed to just not talk about it at all. If Quinn had been a man people would have long since finished sweeping this under the rug and started giving him pats on the back behind closed doors for being a 'dawg'. And no, 'journalistic integrity' isn't even remotely what this is all about. Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE knows that sexual favors are regularly traded behind the scenes in any business, but especially ones as cut throat and nihilistic as journalism. Same situation as the Edward Snowden shtick; Is Snowden a good person? We dunno. Is he just seeking attention? Maybe. Is anyone surprised by his revelation that the US government is spying on us? Not even a little. Do we care who or if he slept with anyone to gain access to those files? Not even a little.

So then why is Quinn's love life such a huge deal? Well quite frankly because men are assholes to women. I could cite examples all over for this, but fact of the matter is if I need to cite you examples for something this obvious, you won't hear this argument anyway. If you want to stop feeling so bad about being a 'nice guy', then stop making excuses for misogyny and actually just leave Quinn alone. You'd be pretty nasty too if you got the same bile spewed at you that women get for merely showing up on the internet, let alone having a life on it.

Let?s also not forget that the supposed ?justification? of the whole gamergate thing was ?integrity in games journalism? and Quinn isn?t even a journalist; she?s a developer. And the (male) journalist she allegedly slept with? Not one word to him or about him. Hell I don?t even recall his name, not sure I ever heard it to begin with. So the actual journalist accused of misconduct was not at all the target of a movement allegedly ?about? holding journalists accountable for misconduct.

And these people wonder why nobody is on their side...

i do agree there. He should have taken the majority of the fire here, even after Quinn's actions following the scandal like what happened with the fine young capitalists. Honestly I try not to engage with gamer gate itself, corrupt assholes will be corrupt assholes, ain't right, but it'll always happen, and I hate the assumption that it's a conspiracy, when to my eyes, if the allegations are true, it's just a loose handful of assholes being assholes. What concerns me is the anti gamer backlash.

 

[Doclector]

what area do you live in? Because seriously, I've never heard anybody I know suffering from at least 48 of these. The occasional racist bastard, true, we have th edl, bnp, and ukip, but nobody with half a brain takes them seriously anymore, so they have about as much real power as a cabbage.

I wish I could agree with you - sadly (from my point of view), I think UKIP are going to win big in the forthcoming elections. I don't think they'll win by any stretch, but I think they'll move into third place.

not around my area. There's a local edl group that's basically just viewed as the town jester such is their utter powerlessness. Guess living in a uni town with people coming from all across the world on a yearly basis does wonders for racial tolerance.

 

[small]

what do they want male games to be like? simple. dont be a dick and call people out on it when you see them being dicks. otherwise all the comments ive read dont really apply to you

 

[Doclector]

Right, I've disabled quote notifications for the time being. Not particularly noble, but after ten pages with no progress, I want to be able to check the news without having my attention drawn to another reply. Honestly, I think I have come out of this with even less understanding than I came in with.

 

[JediMB]

NOTE: I've not read this 10-page thread before getting my thoughts down here. I simply don't have the time, and honestly I'm just thinking out loud about some of my experiences.

Seriously, I'm fed up of this shit. Since this gamergate thing has sprung up, many people, including actual sites, have accused male gamers of everything shitty under the sun. I'm getting pretty sick of being painted as the world's biggest asshole because I dared to play fucking videogames AND have testicles.

Christ.

Okay, while I identify as gender-fluid, I am basically a straight, white, male gamer. I've been playing videogames for about 25 years. And you know what? When people talk about toxic male gamer culture, I know they're not talking about me. I think that goes without saying, since the described behavior doesn't match my perception of myself. Then since they're not making absolute claims about all male gamers, they must be talking about other male gamers. I have no reason to get defensive because I'm not under attack.

Compare this to how some people responded to the White Guy Defense Force from Critical Miss. That comic satirized behavior displayed by a subset of white men, and some people were quick to become irrationally defensive: simultaneously claiming that they didn't belong to that group and acting like the criticism was aimed at them personally. (And of course there was also a non-zero number of people who became outraged whilst proving with their behavior that they were in fact part of the satirized subset, but honestly I don't give a crap about those people in this context.)

So obviously the behavior I described in the first paragraph is what feels like the natural and "right" response to me, but the behavior in the second paragraph feels entirely alien... and yet it's something that keeps popping up in and around this #GamerGate movement:
- People being upset because they feel targeted by accusations that are clearly, in my mind, not aimed at them.
- People who are under the impression that criticism aimed at problems in the larger gamer culture is aimed at every single individual who identifies as a gamer, rather than being aimed at the actual problems and those that perpetuate them.

I don't get it, really.

Maybe it's a matter of ego.

Maybe it's for the same reason that I'm unable to integrate the local (or any, really) sports teams into my identity.

*shrugs*

All I know is a lot of people would benefit from not getting so goddamn riled up all the time. Especially by thirdhand information they haven't fact-checked. And that sending emotionally charged messages to people is rarely a good idea.

 

[Mid Boss]

OP Welcome to the world of stereotypes. As a male gamer you have to constantly prove you're not a raging, homophobic, misogynist, sexually frustrated 14 year old. Just like every African American has to constantly prove he's not a drug addict or a criminal. Just like every woman has to constantly prove she's not an emotion ruled mess. Just like every homosexual has to constantly prove they're not going to try and slip it to you or your kids.

The world is a sick sad place. Best start getting use to it. It's not going to change any time soon.

The only thing you CAN do is learn from it and try to think outside stereotypes. Which most people don't do even when they're the outraged victim of said being stereotyped. Most people get pissed, rage, cry, throw a fit, then turn right fuckin around and do it to someone else without a second thought. And, when you point it out to them, they go "Oh! Well... MY stereotyping of that person is perfectly valid!"

 

[Pete Oddly]

What annoys me about this whole thing is that if you say something like "feminists are all cocky, student, man-haters" then people will tell you not to judge the whole group by a small minority.
But those same people have no problem with saying things like "gamers are all misogynistic, immature, man-children."

"Generalising is okay when I do it."

Did you mean for that to be a generalization?

 

[runic knight]

If people are getting offended by the sort of articles I've read, I tend to see them as either severely lacking in reading comprehension skills to properly digest what has actually being written, or that they doth protest too much.

This.

It's like seeing someone, on overhearing someone talk about changes in the American murder rate, get offended and demanding to know why they're being called a murderer.

No bob, this would be like the article saying "Americans are murderers", using the stereoype of the loudmouth gun-toting texan to justify it, and then feigning incredulity when people point out the stereotype being very ill-fitting. The way things are presented is sort of important, and when the entire article is a slanderization of a group of people by use of the grosses stereotype and who's entire purpose is to basically shit on an aspect of identity of many many people, the same people who are suppose to be their audience I might remind you, well, it is a little different then "just talking about murder rates".

You know what might be a more accurate comparison in logic, if not scale? Talking about Black American crime rates while filling the article with disparaging statements about black americans as a general rule of thumb and making plenty of references to watermellon and fried chicken. And then acting like you have here and going "well I wasn't talking about all black americans, just the ones who actually fit the stereotype, you have no right to get upset, you are just whiny".

Because that above, that is the same sort of bullshit people are decrying.

Oh and since I know you or someone else will try to derail and dismiss if I don't restate the disclaimer here, no, I am not saying gamers' stereotype is the same degree as black american's stereotype, I am saying the articles use the same lack of reasoning, and same pathetic excuse to dismiss those outraged by their tactlessness and needlessly generalizing stereotypes as the example I gave.

 

[Thorn14]

If people are getting offended by the sort of articles I've read, I tend to see them as either severely lacking in reading comprehension skills to properly digest what has actually being written, or that they doth protest too much.

This.

It's like seeing someone, on overhearing someone talk about changes in the American murder rate, get offended and demanding to know why they're being called a murderer.

No bob, this would be like the article saying "Americans are murderers", using the stereoype of the loudmouth gun-toting texan to justify it, and then feigning incredulity when people point out the stereotype being very ill-fitting. The way things are presented is sort of important, and when the entire article is a slanderization of a group of people by use of the grosses stereotype and who's entire purpose is to basically shit on an aspect of identity of many many people, the same people who are suppose to be their audience I might remind you, well, it is a little different then "just talking about murder rates".

You know what might be a more accurate comparison in logic, if not scale? Talking about Black American crime rates while filling the article with disparaging statements about black americans as a general rule of thumb and making plenty of references to watermellon and fried chicken. And then acting like you have here and going "well I wasn't talking about all black americans, just the ones who actually fit the stereotype, you have no right to get upset, you are just whiny".

Because that above, that is the same sort of bullshit people are decrying.

Oh and since I know you or someone else will try to derail and dismiss if I don't restate the disclaimer here, no, I am not saying gamers' stereotype is the same degree as black american's stereotype, I am saying the articles use the same lack of reasoning, and same pathetic excuse to dismiss those outraged by their tactlessness and needlessly generalizing stereotypes as the example I gave.

Yep. If there was an article that said "Black people are violent criminals." There would be an unholy shitstorm, and I doubt any justification of "Oh I wasn't talking about the good black people, just the minority that commits crime!"

Its especially hilarious when Leigh, who started this whole mess, has a good number of racist tweets in her history.

 

[Panda Pandemic]

Uh seriously, what the hell is this? Rules set down for you? Who told you that you can't buy certain comics or even stand near a woman? It sounds like paranoia on your part, not rules laid down by anyone else.

Yes...though the attitude is not uncommon, not the first time I've seen it expressed on this forum. Other people have seen it around and made it into a comic. With Pride and Prejudice characters: http://www.manfeels-park.com/comic/monster/

You see this sort of absurd reactionary response from all sorts of people who were comfortable with the status quo, and aren't interested that the reason people are trying to change it is because it's unfair to people who aren't them. If the status quo seems good to you, changing it is oppression.

I understand that it's unfair to people who aren't me. What I don't understand is why making it better for them means making things worse for me. I wouldn't lose anything from equality. Nothing I treasure, anyhow, I've long hated mostly enjoying something only to have it ruined by absurd fanservice. Not to mention that if the controversy finally ended, I might have a decent chance of shaking the stereotype I'm trying so hard to avoid. I am losing something from whatever the hell is happening here.

The issues are mostly your own. You see rules set for you where none exist and think people are talking about you when they aren't

 

[Kittyhawk]

I get your frustration. I'll I can say in reply though is be yourself when online and playing with others.

If you hate being kicked from games, that be better than those people, by not kicking other players, giving them a chance to prove themselves. If they fail a few times too many then eject them.

Treating all gamers the same decent way also helps, be they male, female, young or old. Its very easy to be a bastard online, but its best not to.

As for the Gamergate etc, make you point and then move on. There's no point in getting bogged down in it too much. Take what you hear online with a pinch of salt too, as some of it can be bs.

Enjoy your hobby and don't let others hijack it.

Peace.

 

[sumanoskae]

Man, don't place so much stock in what people type into a forum post; having a keyboard doesn't mean you know shit about shit. Spend some time out in the real world and you'll see that things aren't nearly as bad as the denizens of the web make them out to be.

 

[Bashfluff]

Don't bend over backwards to please people. They sure aren't going to do that for you! Is there anyone who objected to those articles on the SJW side? Was that outrage circulating through their circles? No. They didn't care. No one cared if they insulted and offended the innocent. Not a single one of them. At worst, they didn't think there were innocents. Don't listen to anyone who tries to force your to have an opinion, who wants to take away your ability to choose what media you consume for fun.

All you can to is be you. If someone tries to harass you or doxx you or anything like that, call the police. Nothing of value will be lost. Absolutely no one who engages in such vile behavior deserves anything less than a comfy cell.

 

[BarrelsOfDouche]

Just go about doing things like you always have. Nobody is forcing you to change.

Be calm, be cool, and be polite. Treat others with dignity.

Really, how often are you going to be confronted in real life about this crap? If you play it calm and continue to be pleasant...it's going to be the militant hypocrite who looks like an a**hole...not you.

The people involved with this are in a minority and most people probably know jack d*ck about this whole controversy.

I'm as white and geeky as you could possibly ever get and so far I have not been assaulted in the streets by by pissed-off women. Who is going to seem crazy when the accusations fly? The a-hole who just met you and is now making snap judgements about you, thats who.