What do people actually want male gamers to be like?

[Doclector]

Because every time I calm down, someone brings up the whole "privilege" thing that I just can't let go unanswered, or tries to explain to me how male gamers getting insulted means we're finally becoming equal in a better way than if nobody was insulted on a mass scale.

I really can't be arsed to debate the whole privilege thing because you already had a quite long and productive discussion about it with thaluikhain.

But let's just talk about this- how are you being insulted?

Attack pieces in the media painting broad brushes? Ok, I haven't read any of those so I'm just going to assume that NONE of them state that they're talking about male gamers who ACT a certain way. That certainly would be wrong. I'm assuming these all came out in response to something rather than just journalists deciding `fuck all male gamers`- so I'm guessing that they're probably due to some shitty behaviour. But still, it's not nice to have things assumed about you.

What can you do about it? Literally anything. It's not going to hurt you.

It WOULD be better if no one was insulted on a mass scale. But it isn't going to happen because people like to talk shit about each other and generalisations are easy to make.
People didn't just start being pissed at male gamers, people always have been. Because there is always going to be someone who is pissed at a demographic.

Maybe in the future all terrible behaviour from all types of gamer will disappear. And there will STILL be people who hate us.

Maybe. I wish I could be one of those people who can just ignore insults made either to me personally or to a group I belong to, but I just can't. Especially when I can start to see it having an impact in real life, especially when it's affecting something I care about as much as gaming, something I do want to grow, something I was once excited to start seeing growing and branching out and reaching more people who were no longer ashamed to be interested in it, but now I'm worried that we're going about it the wrong way.

Because every time I calm down, someone brings up the whole "privilege" thing that I just can't let go unanswered, or tries to explain to me how male gamers getting insulted means we're finally becoming equal in a better way than if nobody was insulted on a mass scale.

What I originally wanted was exactly as said in the title, what did I have to do next to continue to not be exiled from the community. Now? Now I'm just in defensive mode, because what else can I do? I'm not going to change anyone's mind, but I'm not about to let things people say about me just stand.

Please forgive me for butting into a conversation you're having with another, but I do genuinely want to help as I have been in your shoes in the past. So, in the interest of getting down to the root issue here and solving it, what community EXACTLY are you afraid of being exiled from? Gamer culture can be surprisingly diverse.

The whole thing. I'm worried that eventually this will push me entirely out of the hobby altogether.

 

[peruvianskys]

And really, if you're gonna say that privilege is having something bad NOT happen to me, that isn't that rather a negative message? Not getting catcalled ain't a privilege, it should be a right.

But it is a privilege, in that you don't have to worry about it while others do. You can't just say, "Well, it should be this way for everyone!" and then ignore the fact that it's not.

A year. A whole goddamn year I've been putting up with this. Wouldn't you be angry when you've been walking on eggshells for that long and then more is demanded of you?

Do you think women and people of color *don't* have to walk on eggshells in this community, where one offhand comment can bring down a torrent of rape threats and racial slurs?

The fact is, a lot of the things that white men (like me) take for granted, in this community and around the world, are in fact based on the exclusion or oppression of other groups. The fact that so many of us feel so incredibly comfortable and catered to and relaxed in gaming isn't just magic - it's because a large section of those who could possibly make us uncomfortable have been systematically removed. If gaming was 100% perfectly diverse and ideologically stripped of misogyny and racism, I can guarantee you that the comfort you take for granted in it would not be there.

Equality means bringing people up, yes, but it also means bringing people down when their position requires them to be stepping on the backs of others. If I climb up on your back and you want me off, how would you feel if I said, "Hey, I'm all for you being up here, but it's not fair that you want me to be down there with you."?

 

[Doclector]

And really, if you're gonna say that privilege is having something bad NOT happen to me, that isn't that rather a negative message? Not getting catcalled ain't a privilege, it should be a right.

But it is a privilege, in that you don't have to worry about it while others do. You can't just say, "Well, it should be this way for everyone!" and then ignore the fact that it's not.

A year. A whole goddamn year I've been putting up with this. Wouldn't you be angry when you've been walking on eggshells for that long and then more is demanded of you?

Do you think women and people of color *don't* have to walk on eggshells in this community, where one offhand comment can bring down a torrent of rape threats and racial slurs?

No, but I don't think the way to make it better is to make it like that for everyone.

 

[lapan]

Spoiler

the one big difference between those female protagonists and the males on my picture is that they at least look different from each other, the bald (space) marines are virtually exchangeable

Nobody ever argued female characters don't exist, just that they are few and tend to be similar. Don't even get me started on female protaganist portrayal in japanese games who are a culture that cling even more tightly to traditional gender roles than the US does.

See above, they look vastly different from each other compared to the usual male characters.

I mean it OPENS with mocking Anita Sarkeesian with a caricature portrait and you're using it as serious evidence?

Did you even read his whole post? It's far from serious.

Yes that is a bit boring but that cross section of games if targeted specifically so argument is a bit dishonest so I really wouldn't feel bad if I respond to it with equally skewed argument like.

 

[peruvianskys]

No, but I don't think the way to make it better is to make it like that for everyone.

Which is why feminists aren't encouraging rape threats against male gamers. They're encouraging us to examine our behavior and try earnestly to understand our position of privilege. That's not so rough.

 

[Doclector]

No, but I don't think the way to make it better is to make it like that for everyone.

Which is why feminists aren't encouraging rape threats against male gamers. They're encouraging us to examine our behavior and try earnestly to understand our position of privilege. That's not so rough.

It'd be fine if I could bring myself to believe that privilege isn't a word that harms people, isn't a word that people have started to use simply to shit on other people and belittle them. I've been shit on through my life by a veritable rainbow of human existence, men, women, Black people, White people, Asian people, mixed race people, disabled people, able-bodied people, not once has my position as a straight white male bought me mercy. So I struggle to believe that. I'd just go along with it if I didn't believe it was being used to hurt people, but quite frankly I do.

 

[minkus_draconus]

No, but I don't think the way to make it better is to make it like that for everyone.

Which is why feminists aren't encouraging rape threats against male gamers. They're encouraging us to examine our behavior and try earnestly to understand our position of privilege. That's not so rough.

It'd be fine if I could bring myself to believe that privilege isn't a word that harms people, isn't a word that people have started to use simply to shit on other people and belittle them. I've been shit on through my life by a veritable rainbow of human existence, men, women, Black people, White people, Asian people, mixed race people, disabled people, able-bodied people, not once has my position as a straight white male bought me mercy. So I struggle to believe that. I'd just go along with it if I didn't believe it was being used to hurt people, but quite frankly I do.

Do you get extra attention when you go shopping to make sure you are not a shoplifter? Do people scramble to lock the car door when you walk past their car at the gas station? Have the police ever accused you of being a prostitute and threaten to arrest you on the way home from school because of the place you were walking through?

Privilege doesn't bring you mercy, it brings you not getting some of the shit a different person might.

From your posts I get the impression that you are so totally alone and the whole world is actively singling you out for targeted harassment to the point where random people you do not know are going to photograph you buying things and follow you home to get your personal information and then spread this data on-line so people can I guess harass you.

You keep saying that everyone "shits" on you. Can you clarify what that means? Is it that they say things about you? Do they assault you? do they insult things you like?

 

[Doclector]

No, but I don't think the way to make it better is to make it like that for everyone.

Which is why feminists aren't encouraging rape threats against male gamers. They're encouraging us to examine our behavior and try earnestly to understand our position of privilege. That's not so rough.

It'd be fine if I could bring myself to believe that privilege isn't a word that harms people, isn't a word that people have started to use simply to shit on other people and belittle them. I've been shit on through my life by a veritable rainbow of human existence, men, women, Black people, White people, Asian people, mixed race people, disabled people, able-bodied people, not once has my position as a straight white male bought me mercy. So I struggle to believe that. I'd just go along with it if I didn't believe it was being used to hurt people, but quite frankly I do.

Do you get extra attention when you go shopping to make sure you are not a shoplifter? Do people scramble to lock the car door when you walk past their car at the gas station? Have the police ever accused you of being a prostitute and threaten to arrest you on the way home from school because of the place you were walking through?

Privilege doesn't bring you mercy, it brings you not getting some of the shit a different person might.

From your posts I get the impression that you are so totally alone and the whole world is actively singling you out for targeted harassment to the point where random people you do not know are going to photograph you buying things and follow you home to get your personal information and then spread this data on-line so people can I guess harass you.

You keep saying that everyone "shits" on you. Can you clarify what that means? Is it that they say things about you? Do they assault you? do they insult things you like?

all of the above. Not so much the physical anymore, but they're still saying stuff about me. But fuck it all. I ain't getting nowhere except having more insults thrown at me here. Nothing's ever going to be fixed, we're just going to keep going on a magic roundabout of shit slinging.

 

[KokujinTensai]

All this talk of privilege. OP, everyone's privileged.
You have access to clean water? Privileged
You live in a politically stable country? Privileged
You live free of being murdered for your religion or lack of? Privileged.

So don't let this talk of privilege get you down because we all are. The mere fact that we have the free time to talk about arguably irrelevant issues on an internet forum shows how privileged we are.

Just enjoy playing the games you want. Don't let anyone put you down for what you enjoy.

 

[Proto Taco]

Now? Now I don't even know what they fucking want from me. So what is it? What do you want me to do? Do you want me to just agree with Quinn, even though even if the allegations against her are untrue, her behaviour in the entire incident has blatantly illustrated that if nothing else, she's a terrible fucking person? Do you want me to just not talk about it at all? Never mind the bigger problems with male identity in this community. One bunch of people wants me to be alpha, another wants me to be anything but. One bunch of people wants me to come out of my shell, another wants me to stay the fuck inside no matter what. It ain't enough to just try to be a good person, fuck no would anyone on ANY side of this shitstorm want things to be that simple, GOD FUCKING FORBID THAT IT BE AS SIMPLE AS JUST TRYING TO BE A DECENT FUCKING HUMAN BEING. Jesus, ain't as if I was ever an actual misogynist to begin with, I always respected people, but then a bunch of people starting saying that it isn't enough.

First off, I'd like to welcome you to feeling a very small fraction of what females (gamer or not) feel and have felt on a daily basis for the past several thousand years in just about every part of the world.

Second, yes, you ARE supposed to just not talk about it at all. If Quinn had been a man people would have long since finished sweeping this under the rug and started giving him pats on the back behind closed doors for being a 'dawg'. And no, 'journalistic integrity' isn't even remotely what this is all about. Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE knows that sexual favors are regularly traded behind the scenes in any business, but especially ones as cut throat and nihilistic as journalism. Same situation as the Edward Snowden shtick; Is Snowden a good person? We dunno. Is he just seeking attention? Maybe. Is anyone surprised by his revelation that the US government is spying on us? Not even a little. Do we care who or if he slept with anyone to gain access to those files? Not even a little.

So then why is Quinn's love life such a huge deal? Well quite frankly because men are assholes to women. I could cite examples all over for this, but fact of the matter is if I need to cite you examples for something this obvious, you won't hear this argument anyway. If you want to stop feeling so bad about being a 'nice guy', then stop making excuses for misogyny and actually just leave Quinn alone. You'd be pretty nasty too if you got the same bile spewed at you that women get for merely showing up on the internet, let alone having a life on it.

 

[peruvianskys]

It'd be fine if I could bring myself to believe that privilege isn't a word that harms people, isn't a word that people have started to use simply to shit on other people and belittle them. I've been shit on through my life by a veritable rainbow of human existence, men, women, Black people, White people, Asian people, mixed race people, disabled people, able-bodied people, not once has my position as a straight white male bought me mercy. So I struggle to believe that. I'd just go along with it if I didn't believe it was being used to hurt people, but quite frankly I do.

You really don't think that your being white and being male has not conferred institutional privilege on you at any point during your life?

Please, read the famous White Privilege Checklist from Peggy McIntosh and tell me none of these apply:

Spoiler

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

 

[maninahat]

To me, it is to possess the ability to tell when a criticism is not aimed at you.

I never took personal offence to all these condemnations of the gamers involved in the recent debacle. I know that when MovieBob or whoever is complaining about asshole self-elected defenders of videogames, they aren't referring to every gamer that ever existed, or the likes of me, but only to those horrible people who think harassment is okay. When I see articles about the "Death of gamers", I can tell from actually reading the article that the negativity is directed against a specific group of gamers who deserve condemnation, rather than all gamers. The people that are getting offended by the sort of articles I've read, I tend to see them as either severely lacking in the reading comprehension skills necessary to digest what has actually being written, or that they doth protest too much.

 

[Thorn14]

To me, it is to possess the ability to tell when a criticism is not aimed at you.

I never took personal offence to all these condemnations of the gamers involved in the recent debacle, because I know that when MovieBob or whoever is complaining about asshole self-elected defenders of videogames, they aren't referring to every gamer that ever existed, or the likes of me, but only those horrible people who think harassment is okay. When I see articles about the "Death of gamers", I can tell from actually reading the article that the negativity is directed against a specific group of gamers who deserve condemnation, rather than all gamers. If people are getting offended by the sort of articles I've read, I tend to see them as either severely lacking in reading comprehension skills to properly digest what has actually being written, or that they doth protest too much.

Except Leigh's article also talked shit about gamers who also wait in lines for a game to come out.

The hell is wrong with that? Are we not allowed to be excited about the things we like? Why can't we identify ourselves by the things we enjoy? Sorry but I don't buy "Oh when I said Gamers are dead I don't mean YOU gamers." Leigh has made it pretty clear she hates the industry she works in, so I see no reason to give her the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Thaluikhain]

As for the whole privilege thing. I'm sorry, but while I agree with you as far as it goes for society as a whole, IMO it's been blown grossly out of proportion in the context of videogames. Gamers are misogynist if they don't "check their privilege" and give a damn about the gender issues in game? To those I say:

Check your Not having to starve today privilege.
Check your Not getting hanged/shot/beheaded for your religion privilege.
Check your Not getting imprisoned for the rest of your life for political reasons privilege.
Check your Not living in adject poverty privilege
Check your Not have to worry about getting blown up or shot every day privilege.
Check your Not getting literally poisoned daily by your government privilege.

No, I'm not saying that their concerns should be ignored or invalidated just because there are worse things happening, but by the same token, I can't help but feel when watching people complain about things like Princess Peach in Mario is like watching some millionaires complaining that the $500 steak wasn't as good as they thought.

Sure, those are more important issues. But there's also very little most people can do about that.

Most people aren't in a position to stop murdering or imprisoning people, they are in a position to think about what ganes they choose to buy.

 

[BlackJesus]

Not dicks, I guess? I really wouldn't know, I'm a dude too.

 

[kyp275]

As for the whole privilege thing. I'm sorry, but while I agree with you as far as it goes for society as a whole, IMO it's been blown grossly out of proportion in the context of videogames. Gamers are misogynist if they don't "check their privilege" and give a damn about the gender issues in game? To those I say:

Check your Not having to starve today privilege.
Check your Not getting hanged/shot/beheaded for your religion privilege.
Check your Not getting imprisoned for the rest of your life for political reasons privilege.
Check your Not living in adject poverty privilege
Check your Not have to worry about getting blown up or shot every day privilege.
Check your Not getting literally poisoned daily by your government privilege.

No, I'm not saying that their concerns should be ignored or invalidated just because there are worse things happening, but by the same token, I can't help but feel when watching people complain about things like Princess Peach in Mario is like watching some millionaires complaining that the $500 steak wasn't as good as they thought.

Sure, those are more important issues. But there's also very little most people can do about that.

Most people aren't in a position to stop murdering or imprisoning people, they are in a position to think about what ganes they choose to buy.

Indeed, which is why I did say that it doesn't invalidate their points, but regardless, that's how I feel about their political look on videogames.

Seriously, if someone came up to me in a game store and tells me to "check my privilege" because I'm buying Dragon's Crown, I'd just tell them to check their not-homeless privilege and go down to the closest homeless shelter and actually make some meaningful differences.

The closest thing I have seen to those kind of people are the snobby(insert car platform here) owners who thinks their car is the best thing since sliced bread, and everything else are crap.

Let?s also not forget that the supposed ?justification? of the whole gamergate thing was ?integrity in games journalism? and Quinn isn?t even a journalist; she?s a developer. And the (male) journalist she allegedly slept with? Not one word to him or about him. Hell I don?t even recall his name, not sure I ever heard it to begin with. So the actual journalist accused of misconduct was not at all the target of a movement allegedly ?about? holding journalists accountable for misconduct.

And these people wonder why nobody is on their side...

Some corrections, it's not "allegedly", it's confirmed by all parties involved. Second, it's Nathan Grayson, and the reason he hasn't been talked about much is because there isn't much to talk about - he more or less went dark and stopped talking all-together. And really, not sure why you think he wasn't targeted - why do you think there was all that anger towards Kotaku which led them to change their patreon policy?

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

@Doclector
May I ask you this? Where are you going where you receive this:

Seriously, I'm fed up of this shit. Since this gamergate thing has sprung up, many people, including actual sites, have accused male gamers of everything shitty under the sun. I'm getting pretty sick of being painted as the world's biggest asshole because I dared to play fucking videogames AND have testicles.

Are you receiving comments directed specifically at you? Or pm's/ tweets? Or is this a reaction to a series of articles addressed broadly? Because if you feel this upset over articles, you may just not want to read those websites. I hang out at Team Liquid because its awesome and Escapist because of Shamus Young, and I'm amused by the weekly Anita thread. So I'm blithely unaware of any sort of comment war going on at 4chan or tumblr, or even twitter for that matter. I might hop on to one of these GG streams, but its usually too intense for me to be bothered, so I'll skip that to. Thing is, I see a lot of people saying 1) don't be a jerk and your fine and 2) if you are not jerk, then don't worry about the articles, they aren't about you. But from your reaction in the thread, that does not seem sufficient for you.

You seem to take it personally. Far more personally than I have, though I am a white, male gamer. So fine, if it upsets you that much, don't read those articles. I think Kotaku is rubbish anyways because their articles have demonstrated very little understanding of the Starcraft scene. So any negative opinion of me, by them is moot as far as I'm concerned. But that's just me. Now, if you are getting pm's directed specifically at you, that's a different matter. But the internet is a big place, and you needn't read every article posted in it, especially from garbage sites. Or as one of our old admins said back in 2011:

I wouldn't even click the link. Kotaku is a rag of a blog and exists only to spew traffic-generating sensationalism