What do you think of men passing abortion laws?

[zelda2fanboy]

If men could become pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

Been saying that for years. "C'mon son. You're a man now and it's time for your first abortion..."

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Let's stop seeing it as men making laws that affect women, and start seeing it as humans making laws that affect humans.

Abortion isn't about women. It's about someone or a couple's ability or inability to properly raise a child.

 

[chadachada123]

I cannot agree that killing a fetus is morally superior to putting that unwanted child into an orphanage. If you don't have the time, money, drive, or knowledge, then you should be using countermeasures such as birth control and condoms to prevent pregnancies or at the very least, not have sex when you're fertile. When you kill a fetus you are not morally superior to allowing an idiot to continue making the same mistake.

Well let me just take a look here:

http://www.webmd.com/baby/features/cost-of-having-a-baby?page=3

Hm, it costs at least $10,000 to bring a child to term. A child that will immediately be given away when it could alternatively be aborted before it ever has any amount of consciousness nor any ability to feel pain. A child that will then almost-definitely cost society as a whole an obscene amount of money to raise, when it alternately could have never existed to begin with.

Additionally, you leave out the fact that contraception is not 100% effective, and that the vast majority of women don't have multiple abortions, and don't have them as an alternative to birth control. They're made to prevent a child being forced into this world when it's unwanted and to prevent hundreds of thousands of dollars in cost not only to the mother but also to society as a whole.

Let me make this clear: People who do not abort and then rely on the government to provide for them are part of the reason that huge chunks of the US are illiterate fucking idiots, and also part of the reason that we have massive money issues, especially in cities and poor areas.

Not getting an abortion when you're unable to raise a kid effectively is extremely irresponsible, regardless of the fact that not having safe sex is also irresponsible. The difference is that the former affects everyone, while the latter only affects you and your boyfriend.

 

[Substitute Troll]

Abortion should absolutely be legal. Up until a certain number of weeks the fetus is nothing more than a glorified clump of oprganic matter. It has no "soul". It lacks what makes it human other than it's DNA.

I think that men should absolutely be able to have their input matter on questions of abortion, but not to force a woman to keep an organic clump against her will. They should be allowed to tell the required people that, "Hey, this is my offspring, I want it gone." and have that mean just as much as the womans input. They should never be able to force women to keep it though, that would be cruel.

On the political issue I cannot take a stand since I don't have the necessary knowledge of how US handles politics.

"Hey, this is my offspring, I want it gone."
I have to say that this quote really disturbs me - even simply out of context it could applied at any time like for example an abusive parent saying the same about a child. Let's say a parent just suddenly changes their mind about wanting the child at any point after it's born, then it would be a case of murder, thus illegal. Just by this quote alone, it feels as though you are saying murder can and should be legal for the soul basis of "I don't want it anymore."

Right, so your argument only works if you take my excessively silly quote out of context? Nice. Good work there.

Furthermore, It's not really about the "I don't want it anymore" cases, it's about the "I am unable to/have become unable to raise this child properly, be it a lack of economical stability or medical fraility". Abortion is only legal up until a certain amount of time has passed. There's a reason for that. The fetus is not really a sentient being before that time. Actual scientists have studied this and concluded what should be legal. You cannot compare abortion with taking a human life, because the fetus isn't really one. Not at the early stages anyway.

Then there's the whole "rape" thing. There are so many variables to consider, most of which point to abortion as an advantage. "Oh but the baby has a right to live bla bla bla..." Yea, we've already covered that. It's already illegal to abort a baby after a certain amount of time. I don't see why it is so wrong to do it before then.

I seriously hope you're not holding this "pro-life" standpoint because of some kind of spiritual belief. We have to deal with facts after all. If people were to base their arguments around an imaginary friend we would all have died out long ago.

Just one question, in what way does abortion being legal affect you? If you were put in a situation where you had to choose between keeping the clump of DNA that is your potential future child, or abort it, then that's your choice. No one would blame you if you chose to keep it because you think abortion is wrong, but why would you want to prevent anyone that has different beliefs to have abortions. If Margaret the Hooker down the street has an abortion it doesn't affect you in the slightest. Yet you continue to believe that taking away a person's right to choose is the right thing to do. For fuck's sake, I wish people would realize how naive they are with their opinions. Every one has an opinion. Laws should be made to encourage the existance of many opinions and options, not restrict them. It's the same thing with anti-gays these days. So let them go to your theoretical hell! What the fuck does it matter to you that they happen to both like dicks?

Not saying that you're an anti-gay person, just using that as an example.

 

[Stripes]

Reproduction is the purpose of sex.

No. Sex is the mechanism by which human beings reproduce. It is not the "purpose" of sex, either whole or primary.

Is it really unreasonable to state that people should be aware of this and realize they are gaming biology when they use contraceptives in the first place and accept that nature will sometimes succeed?

Yes, it is unreasonable. These things are products of education, and thus are only as reliable as the information people give them. I have known grown adults who insist it's impossible to get pregnant from sex had while the woman is upright because sperm can't travel uphill.

What you are saying to me is that people should be able to have sex without having to worry about the consequences, they should be bailed out because they don't feel like accepting responsibility.

You make sex sound like a crime for which parenthood is the punishment. No wonder people are afraid to have children, with attitudes like that.

Sex isnt a crime, lets not exagerate each other's statements. However I think people should be responsible for what they do and that its wrong that people can just kill a child as a solution to something brought about by their own irresponsibility. Using anecdotes isnt good evidence, sure some people might not understand basic human biology but most do so its fair to say that people know the consequences of what they are doing. We arent gonna see eye to eye on this since we are in disagreement at every stage of the argument, I consider a fetus life (which it is) and sex as a means to an end coupled with pleasure not as a fun thing people can do which has some minor consquences, basically this is a masisve waste of time since we arent bringing anything new to the table.

 

[AnarchistFish]

However, the U.S. is a democracy and women have the vote. In fact there are more women than men (50.8% female, 49.2% male). If you have a problem with the composition of the elected representatives then you have to pause for a moment and realise that women voted these people into power. They elected them as their representatives and so they delegated to them the power to pass laws on their behalf.

I really really don't get this.

You can't vote for someone based on one issue. You might not even know their stance on it, or they might switch, or there might not even be someone to vote for who holds the same opinion as you. There really probably isn't one for all the issues you believe in and it's not like you can stand yourself with a realistic chance of getting in, let alone making a difference, when you compete with people like that with those connections. Parliamentary democracy is a con, you really can't blame laws being passed through them on the people who voted for those people.

What pisses me off even more is that if you abstain from voting, you're considered unworthy of complaining about laws or the political system.

 

[Stripes]

Reproduction is the purpose of sex, is it really unreasonable to state that people should be aware of this and realise they are gaming biology when they use contraceptives in the first place and accept that nature will sometimes succeed? If you arent prepared to have kids then you shouldn't risk them, abortion should be used only in very strict circumstances not when two people old enough to know responsibility dont really like the way things have gone despite knowing what they were doing. Im not against abortion but its not a method of population control nor is it a method of solving accidents which should never have happened, there are other ways of washing ones hands of a child (adoption for example?). what you are saying to me is that people should be able to have sex without having to worry about the consequences, they should be bailed out because they dont feel like accepting responsibility. Your statement that you would kill something because it is unaware is horrible, its such a disreagrd for human life.

In case you didn't know smarter species have sex for fun not just humans, and to give it up for adoption you'd have to give birth to it first. I may be a minority but thinking about having another living thing inside of me leeching off me is appalling. Also humans are self-aware. If it's not self aware it's not a living human. If you're calling it a potential human than every guy who masturbated and every girl who had a period is a murderer.

I'd rather have happy couples and healthy babies, why are you against that? You seem to want to use the kid as punishment for being irresponsible but wouldn't irresponsible people be bad parents?

This isnt going well is it? Firstly I am not against happy cuoples and happy babies, where on earth did you get the justification for such demonisation? I said a fetus was a human, not sperm or eggs, so lets stop with the jumping to conclusions eh? Dont decide my views to make your argument stronger, personal attacks are rather petty.

If you find the concept of a living thing inside of you relying on you for support appaling then you had better disnfect your organs since you and every other human on the planet is full of bacteria doing exactly that. Its human biology, if your against reproduction all together then Id have to say your out of your mind, I doubt you are but you seem blatantly against it absolutely, I dont know why you would paint yourself so falsely since its such a ridiculous view.

Your claim that something isnt alive because it isnt aware is a bit strange, you argue that therefore something which isnt self aware isnt human. Scientifically a fetus is alive, just want to point that out, the real question is if a fetus is human. I say it is, its a clump of cells certainly, but so are we. We're simply more complex, but complexity does not equal worth of life, I am quite sure you can agree with that. If awareness is your definition of human then does that include the mentally ill who are brain dead, yet still alive? Are they not human (bare in mind this is not a matter of whther they should live but whther they are human).

For your last statement Im simply gong to say that you will be hard pressed to find many people, even from bad parents and unintended pregnacies, who seriously regret their lives (at least because of those factors). I dont want to use a child as a punishment, however Im sorry if I wont respect anyone who thinks abortion, which is murder unquestionably in my view, is a solution to what was a natural consequence of a pleasure. Other animals who have sex for pleasure, such as dolphins, also dervie enjoyment from violence towards others, does that make it all right for us to do it?

 

[BNguyen]

Abortion should absolutely be legal. Up until a certain number of weeks the fetus is nothing more than a glorified clump of oprganic matter. It has no "soul". It lacks what makes it human other than it's DNA.

I think that men should absolutely be able to have their input matter on questions of abortion, but not to force a woman to keep an organic clump against her will. They should be allowed to tell the required people that, "Hey, this is my offspring, I want it gone." and have that mean just as much as the womans input. They should never be able to force women to keep it though, that would be cruel.

On the political issue I cannot take a stand since I don't have the necessary knowledge of how US handles politics.

"Hey, this is my offspring, I want it gone."
I have to say that this quote really disturbs me - even simply out of context it could applied at any time like for example an abusive parent saying the same about a child. Let's say a parent just suddenly changes their mind about wanting the child at any point after it's born, then it would be a case of murder, thus illegal. Just by this quote alone, it feels as though you are saying murder can and should be legal for the soul basis of "I don't want it anymore."

Right, so your argument only works if you take my excessively silly quote out of context? Nice. Good work there.

Furthermore, It's not really about the "I don't want it anymore" cases, it's about the "I am unable to/have become unable to raise this child properly, be it a lack of economical stability or medical fraility". Abortion is only legal up until a certain amount of time has passed. There's a reason for that. The fetus is not really a sentient being before that time. Actual scientists have studied this and concluded what should be legal. You cannot compare abortion with taking a human life, because the fetus isn't really one. Not at the early stages anyway.

Then there's the whole "rape" thing. There are so many variables to consider, most of which point to abortion as an advantage. "Oh but the baby has a right to live bla bla bla..." Yea, we've already covered that. It's already illegal to abort a baby after a certain amount of time. I don't see why it is so wrong to do it before then.

I seriously hope you're not holding this "pro-life" standpoint because of some kind of spiritual belief. We have to deal with facts after all. If people were to base their arguments around an imaginary friend we would all have died out long ago.

Just one question, in what way does abortion being legal affect you? If you were put in a situation where you had to choose between keeping the clump of DNA that is your potential future child, or abort it, then that's your choice. No one would blame you if you chose to keep it because you think abortion is wrong, but why would you want to prevent anyone that has different beliefs to have abortions. If Margaret the Hooker down the street has an abortion it doesn't affect you in the slightest. Yet you continue to believe that taking away a person's right to choose is the right thing to do. For fuck's sake, I wish people would realize how naive they are with their opinions. Every one has an opinion. Laws should be made to encourage the existance of many opinions and options, not restrict them. It's the same thing with anti-gays these days. So let them go to your theoretical hell! What the fuck does it matter to you that they happen to both like dicks?

Not saying that you're an anti-gay person, just using that as an example.

I don't see abortion being a problem under specific circumstances like in cases where it can physical hurt either the mother or child if it were to continue, but I believe that if you are physically capable of doing so and have not taken the necessary precautions of preventing getting pregnant in the first place then it should not be alright. I've stated this many times across this discussion that even just a little precaution can go a long way to preventing unwanted pregnancies. I know it doesn't affect me directly, at least not unless I get married and we both at first want a child and then my wife goes behind my back and gets an abortion. It is because I see so many people so easily fall back on 'just get an abortion and everything will be fine stance'. Abortion should be the last option you should consider and education should be the first.
As someone who is planning to work in healthcare and sort of goes in 'parental mode' when around children, I hate to think of adults who could so easily think that these children were once little more than parasites.
I would love for people like this to stand up to children and their parents and tell them -
"Not too long ago you were nothing to me, barely little more than a foot fungus."

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Woman have the right to chose what happens to their bodies. But. The thing thats annoying to a point is if woman dont want to keep the kid, but the man does. Tough to the man. If the woman wants to keep the kid but the man doesnt. Tough to the man. Yep, us men are screwed. Granted using protection can help men and woman from making this tough choice....but thinking of it as the protection you used has failed. Men are always screwed out of the baby issue.

 

[TehCookie]

This isnt going well is it? Firstly I am not against happy cuoples and happy babies, where on earth did you get the justification for such demonisation? I said a fetus was a human, not sperm or eggs, so lets stop with the jumping to conclusions eh? Dont decide my views to make your argument stronger, personal attacks are rather petty.

If you find the concept of a living thing inside of you relying on you for support appaling then you had better disnfect your organs since you and every other human on the planet is full of bacteria doing exactly that. Its human biology, if your against reproduction all together then Id have to say your out of your mind, I doubt you are but you seem blatantly against it absolutely, I dont know why you would paint yourself so falsely since its such a ridiculous view.

Your claim that something isnt alive because it isnt aware is a bit strange, you argue that therefore something which isnt self aware isnt human. Scientifically a fetus is alive, just want to point that out, the real question is if a fetus is human. I say it is, its a clump of cells certainly, but so are we. We're simply more complex, but complexity does not equal worth of life, I am quite sure you can agree with that. If awareness is your definition of human then does that include the mentally ill who are brain dead, yet still alive? Are they not human (bare in mind this is not a matter of whther they should live but whther they are human).

For your last statement Im simply gong to say that you will be hard pressed to find many people, even from bad parents and unintended pregnacies, who seriously regret their lives (at least because of those factors). I dont want to use a child as a punishment, however Im sorry if I wont respect anyone who thinks abortion, which is murder unquestionably in my view, is a solution to what was a natural consequence of a pleasure. Other animals who have sex for pleasure, such as dolphins, also dervie enjoyment from violence towards others, does that make it all right for us to do it?

Because you think underdeveloped cells are human, where is line line between not human and human? To me calling a fetus human is like calling sperm human, it can develop into a human but it isn't currently one. Kind of like how you took living inside to the extreme, no shit everyone has bacteria, but if I had worms I'd find it just as gross. Animals are a clump of cells, are they human? I think the arrangement and development have something to do with the classification. The brain-dead are pretty much zombies, without science they wouldn't be alive and they would just be a dead human. I've never seen anyone regret it either, most left the baby with their mom and fled the state.

I don't see it as right or wrong, just natural. If killing is wrong why do so many people do it? Humans are smarter where we don't just have kids and leave them to starve, we have abortions.

 

[Stripes]

This isnt going well is it? Firstly I am not against happy cuoples and happy babies, where on earth did you get the justification for such demonisation? I said a fetus was a human, not sperm or eggs, so lets stop with the jumping to conclusions eh? Dont decide my views to make your argument stronger, personal attacks are rather petty.

If you find the concept of a living thing inside of you relying on you for support appaling then you had better disnfect your organs since you and every other human on the planet is full of bacteria doing exactly that. Its human biology, if your against reproduction all together then Id have to say your out of your mind, I doubt you are but you seem blatantly against it absolutely, I dont know why you would paint yourself so falsely since its such a ridiculous view.

Your claim that something isnt alive because it isnt aware is a bit strange, you argue that therefore something which isnt self aware isnt human. Scientifically a fetus is alive, just want to point that out, the real question is if a fetus is human. I say it is, its a clump of cells certainly, but so are we. We're simply more complex, but complexity does not equal worth of life, I am quite sure you can agree with that. If awareness is your definition of human then does that include the mentally ill who are brain dead, yet still alive? Are they not human (bare in mind this is not a matter of whther they should live but whther they are human).

For your last statement Im simply gong to say that you will be hard pressed to find many people, even from bad parents and unintended pregnacies, who seriously regret their lives (at least because of those factors). I dont want to use a child as a punishment, however Im sorry if I wont respect anyone who thinks abortion, which is murder unquestionably in my view, is a solution to what was a natural consequence of a pleasure. Other animals who have sex for pleasure, such as dolphins, also dervie enjoyment from violence towards others, does that make it all right for us to do it?

Because you think underdeveloped cells are human, where is line line between not human and human? To me calling a fetus human is like calling sperm human, it can develop into a human but it isn't currently one. Kind of like how you took living inside to the extreme, no shit everyone has bacteria, but if I had worms I'd find it just as gross. Animals are a clump of cells, are they human? I think the arrangement and development have something to do with the classification. The brain-dead are pretty much zombies, without science they wouldn't be alive and they would just be a dead human. I've never seen anyone regret it either, most left the baby with their mom and fled the state.

I don't see it as right or wrong, just natural. If killing is wrong why do so many people do it? Humans are smarter where we don't just have kids and leave them to starve, we have abortions.

Im giving up on this, we arent going to be able to agree on anything here and im just responding because your the sort of person who would think a lack of a response means a concession of defeat. You are plenty wrong even if you disagree with me, you have a very basic and immature view of many things so its worthless arguing with you.

 

[randomrob]

I don't think abortion is always right, but I don't think that it's inherently wrong either. I think it is wrong to abort a baby "because you want to" but if there is a good reason to abort, like poverty, or rape, or some-such, then yeah go ahead.

As a man, I am perfectly capable of having an informed opinion on abortion. So are male public servants. Restricting the gender of people who can pass laws on gender issues is just sexist. There are pro-choice men, there are pro-choice women, there are pro-life men and pro-life women, there are also people of both genders who like me, think that neither camp is entirely right. There is no reason whatsoever to restrict men from passing abortion laws. If you follow that logic, you should have gender separate governments one legislating men, one legislating women, and one legislating for trans folks, and that would be a nightmare.

 

[S1leNt RIP]

So I'm Libertarian. I feel like Liberty is the number one attribute that can be granted by the law so long as that liberty does not infringe upon another's.

So, where's the babies choice?

I'm pro-life. *shrug* I don't feel like the woman is choosing to do something with only her body, which would be fine with me...but there's actually a separate body within her, a new being with new DNA. I'm totally pro-choice, but that choice is exerted in the procreation process.

"Oh teh noes, wat abot rape?" Does not invalidate the argument of a new human being, though it's horrible and regrettable. "What about if she looks at it, wont it remind her of the rape and blah blah blah..." It doesn't have to. I have a friend who was raped and didn't get pregnant, she had a friend who was raped and DID get pregnant. She carried to term and her child became a beacon of joy in her hard times. It's a tired argument (but what argument isn't these days).

Also, there's tons of information out about the negative emotional and psychological affects an abortion can have on the mother. While this wouldn't preclude their right to do with their body as they see fit, it certainly makes it less desirable.

 

[FamoFunk]

I'm pro-choice. No one can tell a Woman what She can and cannot do with her body.

1. Yes, I think Abortion should be legal. I also think the woman should not receive any money or possessions from the man if he wanted to abort but she refused. It's a mutual fucking decision, you're entitled to nothing.

A Man cannot force a Woman do do things to her body like abortion.

It takes two to make a baby, if he doesn't want to risk it he should abstinent. Otherwise Man up and realise what you created.

 

[esperandote]

I'm pro-choice. No one can tell a Woman what She can and cannot do with her body.

1. Yes, I think Abortion should be legal. I also think the woman should not receive any money or possessions from the man if he wanted to abort but she refused. It's a mutual fucking decision, you're entitled to nothing.

A Man cannot force a Woman do do things to her body like abortion.

It takes two to make a baby, if he doesn't want to risk it he should abstinent. Otherwise Man up and realise what you created.

Im going to counter your first argument

It takes two to make a baby, if she doesn't want to risk it she should abstinent. Otherwise Woman up and realise what you created.

I'm pro life in case of consensual sex and healthy pregnancy. I believe people shouldn't be having recreational sex if is not willing to embrace the the possible consequences.

 

[Kriptonite]

I'm pro-choice all the way[footnote]Certain people often forget that pro-choice is not an end-all deal like pro-life: just means it becomes an option, not absolute.[/footnote] Especially when it comes to other people. I see it like this, if I'm not directly involved, I should have no direct impact.

1) Y.E.S.
2)Heh, that's a tricky one. I think males and females should have the right to pass laws on males and females as a species. Gender-wise though, I'm on rather shaky ground in terms of a decision right now.

 

[Matthew Kjonaas]

Well since it takes both genders to make a baby then both genders should be involved.