What happens after death?
- Thread starter ExtremeAnimator
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How would you know anything about anything other than observable reality? Science can (potentially) have all the answers that are knowable without being able to answer the unanswerable. Knowledge is justified true belief. What sorts of unscientific justifications will you countenance as knowledge? Where subjectivity begins, science and knowledge end. Purposes, which are the answers to most why questions, aren't knowable. When why is, in an avoidable manner of speaking substituted for how, "why" is knowable by science. There are grave doubts as to whether "purposes" are anything more than ideas in our head about things... just like with identity, the philosopher of teleology is performing non-factual definition. The conventions used to describe objects are not knowledge, they are useful thought constructs. They are real insofar as they are thought and in a brain, but they have only tenuous relations to the objects they describe.CrystalShadow said:
Solipsism is one of those problems of skeptical doubt I was referring to. You may not be able to prove that anyone else has a mind or a similar experience. This is why we commonly think that knowledge doesn't require absolute proof, only justification (and truth and belief.) We don't need to know that we know something to know it. We can be mistaken in what we know; we may not actually know something even if we think we do. I consider the similarity of others' behavior to mine enough evidence to plausibly know that there are others with similar experiences to mine. It's a judgment call, but I'm willing to make it. That would mean that I have a plausible platform from which to suppose that it all just ends when the brain stops working.
since I think only dead people know what death is like I'm going on this dream I had, when you die you are transported to the nearest time that you could make a difference weather or not you die, if you eventually give up on getting it right you die and no one knows what happens then
You cease to exist, obviously. All that is you shuts down and stops working, it's not particularly difficult to conclude that you end. In fact, I find it somewhat arrogant that most people cannot grasp ceasing to exist.
I have no idea. And I find that fun! Unanswerable questions not only make life interesting, they keep us from getting too uppity.
We are fundamentally incapable of observing 'objective' reality. We can only infer it from our mental model of it.Seanchaidh said:
And that brings along a lot of secondary issues.
Like you imply here, a truly knowing anything in a pure sense is impossible, because all we have are models and inferences.
These models describe known conditions quite well, but they aren't reality.
Physics for instance is a model of reality, not reality itself.
I consider the best model for death to be sleep, because it is the only experience most people know that is even remotely similar.
But, obviously, it is far from being the same thing.
Even so, look at a few common cases with sleep:
Many people have dreams, but often don't remember them.
Scientific studies have linked particular kinds of brain activity to dream states, but from the experience of someone who was asleep, did you really have a dream if you don't remember it?
I rarely have dreams, and being asleep to me, is most often experienced as, well... Nothing.
And yet, my brain is still functioning when I'm asleep, and were you to monitor it, chances are you'd assume I was dreaming for at least some of the time.
Between this, and several forms of amnesia, it's possible to deduce a few things about human identity.
Brain activity alone does not correlate with what a person experiences; This though, is mostly a consequence of incomplete knowledge of the workings of the brain, so that doesn't really count.
If you don't remember it, it didn't happen. Obviously, this is an irrational statement for the most part, but think about it carefully, because this is the implication of most cases of amnesia.
Although you can provide evidence to the contrary, to the person with Amnesia, the fact remains that to them, it isn't something they experienced.
The same goes for dreams you don't remember.
What is the significance of this second point? - Reincarnation. Reincarnation could be total BS. - it's even quite likely that it is.
But that doesn't change the fact that it's possible that you had a prior life and simply don't remember it.
Since there's no evidence within the known universe itself that could link you to your past life in an objective sense, and you don't remember it, it might as well not have happened.
But this brings up a side-point?
Are babies and small children aware of their existence? I don't remember anything from that part of my life. My first memory seems to be from the age of 3 or 4.
Does that mean I didn't actually exist prior to that point? Well, it's easy to demonstrate with photos, and the memories of my parents that I did.
But think about that a bit more... Go back even further; At what point do you draw the line between existence and non-existence?
As I said, based on my memories and personal experience, I didn't exist before the age of 3 or so... How then can I infer a delineation between one condition and the other?
Is my identity truly tied to my brain? You can dismiss this easily enough, as you seem to have done, but what does it mean to begin with?
You claim to have a plausible basis for saying 'it all just ends when the brain stops working'.
But what is it that ends here exactly?
Physical existence? No. The body still exists, and barring major decomposition, still mostly looks like you, and is in many cases still mostly functional. (as demonstrated by organ transplants)
Activity? Possibly. The dead don't move or react to stimulus. Neither does a person in a coma though, which is awkward.
Then there's sleep. - Most people are still active to some extent in their sleep, but even where sedatives are involved, and you don't remember anything of the period inbetween, you still have the prospect of waking up.
Identity? Well, what is Identity anyway? If you lose all your memories, who are you? Do you become a different person? Continuity of memory is the only thing that allows me to say I'm the same person today that I was yesterday. Without it, it's hard to imagine even having an existence. And yet, it can happen.
So, I ask you, what is that 'ends' exactly? For that matter, when did this thing 'start'?
A person without memories is still a person, and yet, what most people think of as their identity is defined by their memories.
Lots of weird religious theories abound. But some of them really aren't that strange depending on how you frame the nature of what a person is.
Saying 'it ends when the brain stops functioning' is totally reliant about an assumption on the nature of it in that sentence. It presumes the 'it' referred to is of a particular nature.
Explain what you mean when you talk about 'it' in this context, and you expose one of your fundamental assumptions.
All thought is built on assumptions in the end. Just as all of reality is not truly visible to us; We know it only through our models. The models within our own minds, or the shared models we have constructed using mathematics and science.
Do not confuse the model for reality, and be careful of the assumptions any models you use make. (and there are ALWAYS assumptions)
Sorry for the double-post here, but I find this quite interesting in itself.Nemorov said:
It's quite possible this is what death is like, but it gets to the heart of how you define yourself.
You don't remember the 9 hours you were in surgery... The implication of this statement is that anything you don't remember ceases to exist for you.
Now think about what you remember about your life up till now, and realise how much of it you've probably forgotten...
Did any of the stuff you don't remember happen?
If the answer is yes, then we have a problem. It implies things can happen that we don't later actually know about...
I'll let you all think through where that leads...
I don't know about y'all, but I'm starting the Zompocalypse. With a twist. Zombified Dancee Dance Revolution night at my restaurant. Awwwyeah.
Actually, you have a good point. However, I can only really prove that something has happened to me via my memory or the memory of others who have also experienced it. If no one can remember it, does that mean that it didn't happen? No, I don't believe that. But I am of the opinion that we are little more than a collection of thoughts and experiences, which could arguably make up our 'souls,' and define us as individuals.CrystalShadow said:
This is all incredibly existential, which reminds me greatly of the arguments some of my friends used to have that went along these lines:
"I am the only one I can prove actually exists, therefore it is quite possible you are a figment of my imagination."
"Quite the contrary, I can prove I exist, however I cannot prove you do. Therefore you are the figment of my imagination."
I think we can agree that 'self' is pretty subjective. I will be the first to admit that I've been quite caught up in the 'Why am I me? Why is my particular consciousness here?' thought process, and when I was little I was most certainly of the opinion that nothing existed unless I was experiencing it. Obviously this is kind of stupid, but it opens up a whole can of circular logic and non-conclusions, ranging from 'strange, one-person experiment that you wake up from when you die,' to 'maybe there's some bigger reason why I'm here.'
But the honest truth is nobody knows, and nobody is going to know until they die. You see, near death experiences aren't a good source because of the proven effects of a lack of oxygen on the brain--but for all we know, that's bullshit too, and that is what actually happens. I can only offer speculation, because frankly, I know diddly-squat in the grand-scheme of things. And existentialism gives me a headache.
Would I like there to be something? Yes. I'd hate for this all to be pointless. Do I think that there is actually something after death? That's doubtful, considering we are (for all that we can prove) entirely organic, and therefore subject to decay. Do I know anything at all? Absolutely not.
EDIT: I quite enjoy this discussion. It's pointless, but really fascinating. =]
I wouldn't strictly say so. After death can be seen as a spiritual thing too.IntoxicatedKnight said:
Anyway.
Everyone knows we all go to the lifestream.
