What is being homophobic?

[Luciella]

I'm done with this thread for right now but I need to say that the fact you compare being born gay to being socially indoctrinated into a homophobic mentality and S&M sexual fetish and think homosexuality is a biological anomaly (do your own research on the benefits of homosexuality, and btw, as long as something doesn't actively cause harm, which homosexuality doesn't, it isn't a trait that is somehow "against" the evolutionary process) more or less says it all regarding your views on the subject.

You think being born gay and the choice of being homophobic is comparable and then expect a legitimate response from me in return? I don't think so. These last few days have been a waste of time. Get educated on the subject of homosexuality, or better yet, see what some on here who are educated on the subject have had to say, and then we can have an argument that actually means something.

Well, arent YOU the expert? Thats why im asking you, if you refuse to tell me that, in order to make me and whoever i chat with look at the light u see and live, how would u expect to -fight- for your rights?
Hey, i dont care about gays, im curious. But i by no means i will go on a large reasearch on something that doesn't directly affect me.
The same way you wont go on a large reasearch on say, arachnophobia. But you will ask an expert, or someone that has it if you get curious about it.
Anyway, the idea here is to know what's on your mind and why you are so intolerant to whoever doesnt share your exact way of thinking.

You said less on that last response that...well, nevermind you said nothing.

Want people to accept you and gays?
Start to make people care, instead of insulting them.

 

[Ieyke]

I think you need to think a little bit less about it You freak out when two guys show affection, and you're also sort of freaking out about freaking out when it comes to two guys showing affection. You know how you operate so I can't tell you specifically what I would do, but when I was younger and a bit spooked when I saw two people of the same-sex kissing, I sort of shook my head around and opened my eyes wide, to clear my head. You have to do something to calm down a bit whenever the urge to freak out comes.

XD

I'm sure I've failed to accurately depict what I mean.

I'm fearless for my own safety, I don't involuntarily jump when something suddenly leaps out at me, and my heart doesn't skip a beat at nearly being in an 85 mph car accident (incidentally, that was the first indicator that I no longer seem to have fear for my safety.)

As the trailer for an upcoming movie managed to articulate, when I could not - I realized "fear is not real. It is a product of the thoughts you create. Don?t misunderstand me. Danger is very real. But fear is a choice."
(the apparent lack of a thing as useful as fear, ironically, worries me a bit...)
Once you realize that, -most- everything else in your mind is a cakewalk.

So it ends up that I've sort of got ice water in my veins when it comes to "freaking out" (unless it involves my loved ones, which is where I DO feel fear/paranoia/worry too much/etc).

The things that DO phase me (e.g. things that just inexplicably weird me out) are likewise controlled. It's just a sudden pulse of reflex that flashes through me, but I slam on the brakes before I even outwardly react.
- I could walk into a random room and discover two guys having sex, but outwardly my reaction would probably just be a "WTF?" expression and an exasperated sigh, followed by ignoring them.
- A roach could land on my eye and I'd just grab, toss to ground, squish, angrily declare war on its kind for daring to invade my domain.
.
.
.
So I suppose you could say that the confusion arises because, like my thoughts/opinions, I'd not considered the impact of not filtering/differentiating the impulses behind my actions/non-actions and my actions/non-actions themselves.

So where I honestly get seriously weirded out, and one could reasonably envision that that would entail me freaking out, the reality is that I get seriously weirded out and actually just simply ignore it.

Something has to weird me out in a rational way before it bothers me. For example, if I got reliable information regarding a close friend that was disturbing and wildly out-of-character....that's the type of thing that has the potential to shake me and leave me noticeably out-of-whack.
If it's something I have no rational reason to be concerned with, I can outwardly ignore it.

.
.
.

I sound ridiculous sometimes... >_>

 

[101flyboy]

This is perfectly natural and acceptable.

It's perfectly natural to want to throw up when two men kiss?

No. It isn't perfectly natural. And it's not acceptable. At all. Especially considering that there are numerous people in this very thread who have no real issue with two guys kissing.

I don't see threads with gay men saying "I hate seeing a man and woman kiss. It's disgusting!". You don't see threads like that because there isn't any socially indoctrinated stigma against heterosexuality.

There are numerous people in this thread who've admitted that seeing physical affection in public makes them uncomfortable regardless of the genders of those involved. I know a few gay men who find the idea of kissing women similarly unappealing.

A few people have said that, that's true, and for those people, it's a different situation than the majority who have said they find PDA uncomfortable/disgusting, in that they simply find same-sex PDA uncomfortable/disgusting and not "PDA". There are some who are simply uncomfortable with displays of affection in general and that's fine, but it's not cool to solely be biased against same-sex PDA or only male-male PDA, and not opposite-sex PDA.

Also, we're not talking about kissing the same-sex, we're talking about people displaying low/moderate displays of PDA with a spouse. Hand holding and light kissing. Being uncomfortable with kissing the gender you're not oriented to really has nothing to do with what this thread is about.

 

[101flyboy]

I'm done with this thread for right now but I need to say that the fact you compare being born gay to being socially indoctrinated into a homophobic mentality and S&M sexual fetish and think homosexuality is a biological anomaly (do your own research on the benefits of homosexuality, and btw, as long as something doesn't actively cause harm, which homosexuality doesn't, it isn't a trait that is somehow "against" the evolutionary process) more or less says it all regarding your views on the subject.

You think being born gay and the choice of being homophobic is comparable and then expect a legitimate response from me in return? I don't think so. These last few days have been a waste of time. Get educated on the subject of homosexuality, or better yet, see what some on here who are educated on the subject have had to say, and then we can have an argument that actually means something.

Well, arent YOU the expert? Thats why im asking you, if you refuse to tell me that, in order to make me and whoever i chat with look at the light u see and live, how would u expect to -fight- for your rights?
Hey, i dont care about gays, im curious. But i by no means i will go on a large reasearch on something that doesn't directly affect me.
The same way you wont go on a large reasearch on say, arachnophobia. But you will ask an expert, or someone that has it if you get curious about it.
Anyway, the idea here is to know what's on your mind and why you are so intolerant to whoever doesnt share your exact way of thinking.

You said less on that last response that...well, nevermind you said nothing.

Want people to accept you and gays?
Start to make people care, instead of insulting them.

I'm intolerant towards homophobia because I hate it and hate what it does to society. In this case, I'm not completely intolerant to what is being said here because I don't think many people here are pure homophobes. However, I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed because I do not understand why many cannot get it and continue making the same ignorant statements over and over, not just here but in general. I know harm may not be meant, but it's annoying. I don't get what is so hard to get for so many, and what makes me mad is the defiance people have in their ignorant views instead of listening to people with first-hand knowledge. This is what I avoid in my personal life. I have a short fuse when it comes to this stuff.

That's why I'm a bad advocate. I'm a fight fire with fire type. That's the New York in me. So I apologize for coming on too strong but I'm annoyed and the fact you compared being gay to S&M is NOT OK whatsoever and that more or less was the breaking point for me, at least yesterday. There is only so much.............lack of understanding, I can handle.

I expect people to get it at this point. I don't expect people in 2013 not to get it and the fact so many don't is an annoyance in the very least, and it wears you down. I'm jaded. But if you're truly willing to listen and learn and understand, I'm totally down with that and appreciate that. I've found a lot of RESISTANCE to that which is what has pissed me off. I've found most here don't actually want to listen and instead are wanting to inject their 2 cents into a situation they don't understand.

I don't need people's acceptance. That's the #1 thing. It's this "well I'm not going to accept this and that's my opinion" or "say something to make me accept you" mentality that offends me. Why wouldn't you just accept people for who they are, without conditions, and be done with it? WHY can't that be done? It's honestly, not that difficult. I don't see any excuse for it. I'm not going to grovel to get people to like me. It's time for everyday straight people to get on the ball and start doing what you all need to do to build bridges. We don't, the gay community and our straight allies, need to do all the work, nor should we. But if you want a discussion, let's have a discussion.

 

[101flyboy]

-snip-

When possible, please use magical -snipping- powers or [spoiler tags] so that your posts don't get bonkers.

In addition, please calm down. You have gone off on a number of people throughout this thread, and not all of them were deserving of it. Yelling at bystanders with solid points does nothing to help the cause of "people should be treated equally, regardless of gender, race, creed, who you want to boink, etc".

First point, OK, I will

Second point, there are zero solid points in defense of internalized homophobia or bias against homosexuality. None exist. That's the entire crux of the issue. I separate causal discomfort of PDA in general or casual discomfort due to lack of visibility of same-sex kissing from the several here who have called homosexuality unnatural, abnormal, against evolution, disgusting, revulsion. Of course, reading these things typed over and over and over are going to piss a person off. It's complete bullshit.

 

[randomrob]

"Homophobia" etymologically speaking is a train-wreck. Due to its greek roots, homo (meaning same or oneness) and phobos (fear) it should mean fear of oneness, it might be a good word for a phobia of intimacy, but as a label for something or someone that homosexuals find offensive (which is what the word is used to denote in common parlance) it really doesn't work. People who dislike homosexuals or homosexuality are not usually afraid of them/it. They either hate it, dislike it, don't understand it or a combination of the three. A more correct term would be homoerosunphilia, or the dislike of homosexuality, using the roots for sameness (homo), sexual love (eros) and dislike or negative love (unphilia).

As for what it is to dislike homosexuals, the OP is not prejudiced, his body has a knee-jerk reaction of disgust to homosexual men, and sexual activity between men. That is a bodily reaction that the OP cannot be blamed for. You would be prejudiced if you consciously and willingly had a problem with consenting gay or bisexual men (or women) having romantic or sexual relations with each other.

 

[Grahav]

My own two cents. I think homophobia can be based on a instictive fear of being raped.

 

[101flyboy]

I sound ridiculous sometimes... >_>

Spoiler

I actually get it now! OK, that's understandable. We all have our triggers. Seems like whenever you come into contact with one of your instinctual triggers your body sort of shuts down before you feel anything. I actually have a similar trigger.......it's a sort of funny one, but one of my biggest triggers are popsicles. A popsicle, seeing someone eat a popsicle and my first instinct is to jump, but my mind is able to control the instinct completely. So I can watch someone eating a popsicle and not get freaked out by it. Well........not necessarily directly watch, but I can ignore it. I don't need to look away or disassociate myself from that person. It doesn't really bother me.

The reason I have this trigger I'm quite sure is because I had a popsickle once when I was 8, and it made my head hurt. And it's stuck with me, the aversion to popsickles. But I realize how irrational and stupid it is so I've more or less psyched myself into not being affected by it.

Seems you're the same way with two guys showing affection. Your mind is able to regulate and shut down you immediate instinct before it can bother you. That's a good thing. I think we all have a reason for our triggers. The difference between our triggers is that I can explain mine. I think we all have a reason for our triggers we can look back on. It can be something you don't even remember, something that is stored way way in the back of your head, but I think we have a reason for our triggers. The important thing is to not allow those triggers affect you at all.

You live around a lot of gay people? I live a block away from an ice cream parlor so you see a lot of popsickes when you walk out and about hahaha. I also have a couple friends who work there so I go in from time to time to talk with them. I think I've become numb to it simply by seeing people eat them so regularly.

You're different than other posters here that, IMO, actually legit freak out and react when two people kiss. They also attempt to rationalize it, so I don't consider it a trigger in the same way. It's a psychological trigger for them. Not an instinctual one. Psychological triggers can be repressed and changed whereas internalized triggers you can simply control but likely never leave you. That's probably why I've been less aggressive towards you than others here, at least you might see that for yourself xD. You don't have a bias, you have a trigger and you have it in control rather than make horrendous excuses for it as other posters here have.

 

[101flyboy]

My own two cents. I think homophobia can be based on a instictive fear of being raped.

I actually have read that many men who have been raped do end up resenting gay men. They blame gay men for their rape. When they think of gay it takes them back to that place when they were abused. A major amount of them become confused in their orientation, and they don't want to be gay or don't feel right in being gay. And you're right that the fear, with men at least, of losing control is a big deal. The man is no longer the protector role with another man. You no longer automatically have control over your spouse. It's an feeling of vulnerability men don't like. The fear a gay man will treat a straight man the way straight men treat women. Misogyny is also in play. A lot of gay/bi men don't like receiving anal sex for the same reason, not having control.

 

[Jack Watson]

I wouldn't say you're homophobic you just don't like seeing guys kissing because you're not attracted to them. In the same way you wouldn't enjoy watching two very unattractive women kissing, it's because it's not attractive to you. So yeah you are a homophobe

 

[manic_depressive13]

So the question basically boils down to 'Can I be homophobic if I'm sexist?' And the answer is of course, you can be both at once.

 

[Zen Toombs]

Yeah, there aren't any solid points for internalized homophobia, and you have every right to be upset and yell at the people who say that homosexuality is "unnatural, abnormal, against evolution etc".

But internalized stigma is not inherently a reason to go off on them. Internalized stigma comes from outside sources, and so long as that person does their best to realize their stigma and biases and so long as they do their best to reduce their stigma, they are not badwrong people to be yelled at.

In addition, you have gone off on people who are uncomfortable with gay sex or who use the word "tolerate" in regards to two men kissing. Now I'm a bisexual male. I like guys and I like gals. However, I am personally uncomfortable with anal sex, and prefer blowjobs and other sex stuff when I'm fooling around with a guy. In addition, I'm not a huge fan of PDA regardless of source. I could accurately be said to "tolerate" most instances of two guys kissing.

I'm not saying that there are no people on this thread who deserve their head being torn off, but from what I have seen you have been a bit overzealous from the start. Please pick your targets with a bit more care next time, for the cause.

 

[Luciella]

I'm intolerant towards homophobia because I hate it and hate what it does to society. In this case, I'm not completely intolerant to what is being said here because I don't think many people here are pure homophobes. However, I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed because I do not understand why many cannot get it and continue making the same ignorant statements over and over, not just here but in general. I know harm may not be meant, but it's annoying. I don't get what is so hard to get for so many, and what makes me mad is the defiance people have in their ignorant views instead of listening to people with first-hand knowledge. This is what I avoid in my personal life. I have a short fuse when it comes to this stuff.

That's why I'm a bad advocate. I'm a fight fire with fire type. That's the New York in me. So I apologize for coming on too strong but I'm annoyed and the fact you compared being gay to S&M is NOT OK whatsoever and that more or less was the breaking point for me, at least yesterday. There is only so much.............lack of understanding, I can handle.

I expect people to get it at this point. I don't expect people in 2013 not to get it and the fact so many don't is an annoyance in the very least, and it wears you down. I'm jaded. But if you're truly willing to listen and learn and understand, I'm totally down with that and appreciate that. I've found a lot of RESISTANCE to that which is what has pissed me off. I've found most here don't actually want to listen and instead are wanting to inject their 2 cents into a situation they don't understand.

I don't need people's acceptance. That's the #1 thing. It's this "well I'm not going to accept this and that's my opinion" or "say something to make me accept you" mentality that offends me. Why wouldn't you just accept people for who they are, without conditions, and be done with it? WHY can't that be done? It's honestly, not that difficult. I don't see any excuse for it. I'm not going to grovel to get people to like me. It's time for everyday straight people to get on the ball and start doing what you all need to do to build bridges. We don't, the gay community and our straight allies, need to do all the work, nor should we. But if you want a discussion, let's have a discussion.

I compered it to S&M because its a sexual preference that people take on or they simply like the idea of pain since they are born. For an outsider like me, its sounds a lot in same line as homosexuality and sure many S&M couples love eachother. If that comparison insulted you in truly sorry.

As for 2013, well hey many people don't get bulling, nor (and back to the theme) many people don't accept women as pro, or that USA is the main reason Mexico is in a blood bath due to the demand of drugs, or that videogames are not the reason for school massacres. See where im going?
Only in the perfect world people will accept the problems and understand each other, or as you put it accept people for who they are.

Sadly not in this one, in this world you either adapt to the majorities or try hard so they accept your minority.
Want an example?
Nerds, do you think highschool kids will stop to be bullies to them because there are w/e movements on the net media etc, and simply accept them?
No, when your a teen and nerd you learn to defend yourself and make bullies respect you, that how its done. The wont accept you just for who you are, thats not how world works and you know it.

Yet again, straight people have no need to build those "bridges" because its simply not our problem, if you think its straight people's responsibility -our ball- to build it, you are very very wrong and we will end up nowhere near the understanding btwn majorities and minorities.

 

[mateushac]

After reading about 8 pages of this thread I feel I should somehow feel bad for being uncomfortable near male-male PDA (nice new term for my dictionary, btw).
I just wish to point out that I'd change if I could, but I guess it's just the way I was raised.

I'd also like to say I'm totally okay with them doing it. I believe it's their right. I'm just not too fond of looking at it.

And you may even say I'm homophobic because of that. Well, what can I do about that, then?

 

[The Material Sheep]

Wow... overzealous could describe this thread. Maybe just sad.

 

[xdiesp]

Once, it meant to actively holding a grudge and persecuting homosexuals.

Today, it means not holding in respect sodomy. That's bad, you are evil if you do.

 

[Webb5432]

I would state with the OP that homophobia should define as "An extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something", is Google puts it. Therefore homophobia means that said person has an extreme/irrational fear of/aversion to people who are homosexual, most likely because they have a belief that said homosexual could affect them personally. People who are germophobic are actually afraid of germs because they have an extreme aversion to getting sick/infected. People are claustrophobic because they are afraid that the closed spaces will collapse on them or remind them of a past trauma. People who are afraid of heights (vertiphobic? I don't remember) are afraid of falling to their demise/severe injury (I personally hate heights because of that reason, and I used to be afraid of germs and toxic materials).

So, using that definition, homophobics I would say believe that said homosexual would either attempt to perform homosexual actions with them or change their preferences towards homosexuality. Now, they would probably not ever tell you this, but the brain works faster than anyone is aware of, so it could easily make those fears and logic flash by in a matter of milliseconds.

How this ties into the OP, however, is a little different.

I personally am in the same boat as you, Sylvester. I like seeing two girls kissing. I think most guys do. And I know my girlfriend has a thing for reading yaori right next to me in bed (not kidding, but it's apparently more softcore-romantic stuff than porn) and she can't stand the sight of two girls kissing. I think this is because of one simple experiment that can easily be preformed by any straight person of any gender.

Picture a hot woman and a hot man kissing/making love/whatever. Guys, focus on the hot woman enjoying herself. Hot, right? Girls, focus on the hot guy. Hot again, right? Now switch. Guys, focus on the hot man enjoying himself. Girls, focus on the hot woman enjoying herself. Not so hot anymore, huh?

What happens when a straight guy/girl sees a two girls/guys doing those actions is that the part of the mind dedicated to sexual orientation sees two people of the preferred gender enjoying themselves and it can be mentally considered a "guilt-free" situation, where the observer can see both participants and enjoy the thought/sight of both without the part of the brain that controls sexual orientation acting. If two people of the unpreferred gender to the observer are doing the same things, the sexual orientation part of the mind shuts off the reaction to become aroused, and gives the observer a bad feeling to force them to remove themselves from the situation. It's like an old breeding instinct.

Now, this could be wrong, but I personally think that is why the sights of two men or women having intimate relations sparks specific responses in the minds of specific genders with a heterosexual orientation. Feel free to debate this one.

 

[The Material Sheep]

Well I was going to make a long winded post about how people like Flyboy need to stop focusing on those who come to places like this who are truly ignorant, and/or have irrational fears of homosexuality that they don't have themself to blame for, and honestly exhibit a willingness (at least in the OP)to listen, by branding them as bigots for relatively minor things that are for the most part easily corrected. However my dumb ass keyboard keeps causing me to switch pages, and lose progress or delete whole sentences while I'm typing. Alas having a new computer is not always an across the board improvement.

I just want to say this. I am a gay woman. I've dealt with real bigotry. The OP is ignorant yes, but so long as he has honest intentions to explore why he has those feelings and not act on them in a public setting, then he is not the kind of person to be putting this much effort into. I know people like to be the righteous crusader, and that combating bigotry is an easy good/bad/black/white scenario from a first glance. However going after the OP with claims of bigotry only serves to instil further animosity and distrust among groups. Take more caution in who you brand someone with a title of a bigot or a racist, as you'll many times that isn't the case or that with a little less hostility you could easily make that not the case any longer. That only applies to people that approach the subject without any maliciousness or ill intent. THOSE PEOPLE.... yeah call them bigots, ignore and hate them all you want. They are actively going out of their way to deserve that kind of response. The op is not one of those people from what I could tell.

 

[Vault101]

snip.

are you saying that naturally the dynamic between men and women in the bedroom is kind of "rapey"?

 

[karamazovnew]

"PS: Reading now the pages that I've missed before, I see that the genetics thing has been done to death. Of course it may be the only trump card that straights have before resorting to uglier stuff, but I still sound like a late-comer at this discussion by repeating that argument, although it really is my honest view about it."

Well, unless somebody comes up with a better name for what I am, I'm a homophobe. It took me a while to realize it. It almost felt like coming out of the closet. In fact, I only labeled myself as such after I began to have a strange feeling that there was something wrong with me (pretty much similar to the OP). Realizing that there was nothing wrong with me, I decided that I had too much of an opposing stance to gays to just ignore it. I've never had a wrong or violent reaction to gays. I know some and feel perfectly comfortable around them. Also not once did we discuss it in any way. I've never had a bad reaction when finding out that such and such actor or musician was gay. Heck, I'm a Queen and Placebo fan. Yes, I don't like being touched by people of my own sex, but I don't care what others do in their own homes. So, why am I a homophobe?
Because regardless of anything said, I do not, will not, EVER, think that being gay is "normal". I am sick of quoting Seinfeld's "not that there's anything wrong with it...". Yes, I do think there's something wrong with it, and whenever asked, I will reply this, safe under the cover of my homophobe label and not needing to find ways to defend my own stance on it. For me, being gay is not "normal", in the sole view that sex in nature equals making babies. And to do that you need a male and a female. For me, case closed. Of course, at first glance, our society doesn't work that way, sex for humans appearing a bit more complicated, right? Not really. Because regardless of all the crazy shit straight couples go with every day in their bedrooms (mine included), regardless of all the perverted, violence, coercion, rape, and whatnot, in the end, we're all here because of an unbroken link of straight people having sex for a few million years. Being gay makes you a dead end for your blood-line. Actually screw the blood-line, being gay means that there won't be a "half you - half your loved one" running round the playground in your life. Is that normal? No. Ignore genetics all you care... gay or not, you're alive because of genetics. I don't know any gay person not wanting children with their soul-mates(but I do know straight ones... even more weird for me), but surely they must admit that in that view, being gay doesn't work, right? Of course, being "bi" and ralying around the rainbow flag is nothing less than hypocrisy, a noble name for being a pervert (don't jump, we all are perverts in a way or another, we just have different thresholds). I just don't consider them as worthy of any gay pride parade, more than any man wearing a thong.
But does my above view make me a homophobe in the strict sense? Does the behavior of others bother me? No. Should my views bother them? No. But still... One quick glance at the gay culture revolution in the last 100 years will show that gays do feel bothered by not being labeled as "normal". It's not just injustice and violence against them that makes it so, it's their own brains seeking acceptance, even by enforcing it ad nausea, from their peers. So, somehow, they made being gay "a different normal". And they made anyone not agreeing with that a candidate of the name "homophobe". I have no idea how, but in the name of politically correctness, they've won. Thus, for lack of a better word, I'm a homophobe, a mild one, true, but a homophobe. And for me at least, "there's nothing wrong with it".