What is being homophobic?

[generals3]

And evolution doesn't say you must do anything, i agree there. However nature dictates that if everyone were gay the species would go extinct and unless you assume that is what nature intended than obviously homosexuality is not a natural (as in "naturally intended") behavior.

Given that the "if everyone were gay" theory is a fallacious argument, your entire point becomes more or less void. Homosexuality is rampant in nature, causes no harm in itself, which makes it very much natural.

As I said a few pages back -

We are pretty much going in circles for like 8 pages now and it's starting to get tedious. People are too caught up in the whole evolution and "the goal of life" (philosophers have been discussing this for millennia, but every person against homosexuality has it all figured out) as if they are some omnipotent and conscious deities that DEMAND *something* from everyone and will punish us when we don't conform. That is silly and childish. The matter of fact is that as natural creatures on this earth, everything we CAN DO is natural by way of associative logic and by your definitions "nature" has ALLOWED humans and animals to be homosexual, it doesn't even matter why. It isn't hard to debunk the "unnatural" routine, but it requires more thought than "buuuuut it doesn't make babiiieeezzz waaaah". Neither does oral sex, but you don't whine about that.

And yes, OBVIOUSLY, if EVERYONE was gay and NEVER ONCE had sex with the opposite sex we would go extinct. But that isn't the case and it never will be, it's a stupid argument.

I don't get why you get so upset. First of all there is a big difference between ingrained instincts/subconscious processes and conscious processes. Instincts and many subconscious processes are genetically programmed into us, such as sexual orientation (unless you want to argue it's a choice). Conscious processes however are both affected by subconscious processes and nurture. Conscious processes are rarely "natural".

But you see here is the difference: oral sex is an unnatural action. Homosexuality is an unnatural "trait".
However as you may notice, since i hold no grudge on oral sex there is no reason to believe that i hold a grudge against homosexuality "because it's unnatural". You just assume that because I think A i also think B. I have actually previously stated that that was not true.

And whether it is the case now is irrelevant to the argument. The argument is there to determine if it could be naturally intended to be "programmed" with a homosexual nature. Do mind that genes undergo many mutations and what not, which can easily make the programming deviate from its initial intentions. And that also goes for other animals.

The only argument that you can now hold against me is that there is no evidence that genes affect sexual orientation. To which i preventively say: due to a lack of studies on the domain one can only speculate on the source however since sexuality seems to be very subconscious it seems plausible it is linked to our genetic coding.

 

[monkey_man]

7. also, I've seen that you've been busy quoting everyone who isn't much fond of gayness. Stop infringing on people's right to have opinions. seriously.

So you're seriously trying to tell him that having an opinion is infringing on other people's right to have one? Lol...

having an opinion is fine. actively trying to get everyone to accept it as the one true opinion is annoying and obnoxious. This is a thread about homosexuality, not religion. Homosexuality shoves something entirely different down your troat than bad information.
Don't quote me on the last bit though, I know the jokes are bad. if even Jokes.

I find homophobic opinions annoying and obnoxious in and of themselves. Why then should I care any more that someone is criticizing those and others find it annoying and obnoxious when I have to put up with the opinions I find annoying and obnoxious?

You can't tell everyone they're wrong, it's just rude, even if They Are wrong. Why is this such a bloody touchy subject. Those people are just gay, is all. that's about it.
also, that guy is pretty much capable of telling me I'm wrong himself. which he did. please stop trying to make my wrong right, I honestly doubt it'll end very well. I might start throwing things at you.

It isn't rude to tell people who are being homophobic they're wrong. If they take offense, well too bad. I certainly believe in things such as homophobia being criticized much more than I believe in catering to the feelings of people who want to be homophobic. I honestly have to wonder at how much people try to cater to the feelings of people who are homophobic and other such things, but don't go around telling those people to shut up when people have a more legitimate reason to take offense at what they say.

Do you need to cater to their feelings though? Does the Gay community actually care about a site where these threads pop up every so much time to follow the same patterns?

Yes, the gay community cares about homophobia. And the gay community hates homophobia and excuses for homophobia. Thanks for asking.

On this site though? How many gay people would you find on this relatively small site. I appreciate what you're trying to do, certainly. I'm not dismissing your input, I'm just saying that you'd be better of fighting for gay rights elsewhere, instead of on this site where a similar thread is always active, and it's always the same pattern. party a asks about gayrights, party b defends, party c rejects, party b and c grapple, party d is done with this, gets pulled in etc. It's been going on for years, to my knowledge. also, we should not be derailing any further, as the thread is not "is it worth it to argue over defending gay rights", but rather what the definition is. Which has been answered by loads of people, including me, by stating that it's not that important what's thought, but rather on what's being acted on. you can think many things, but if you don't act ('tell others of' 'let seep through'influence'etc. also counts under that) on any of it, it's not really anything to others. So there OP, you have the answer. Now let's stop advocating about the rights of gay-people, because basically anyone with at least 3 braincells will agree that gays have the same rights as nongays, and that just because they're gay doesn't make them lesser, evil, stupid, weird, or some other negative adjective. And that's pretty much all I'll have to say and read about this entire thread.

 

[101flyboy]

Accepting homosexuality is easier than accepting women as equals because homosexuality in no way harms the person who is against it. There are zero quantifiable reasons to be against it. There are regarding misogyny. I'm not saying these reasons are valid as I think they clearly are not, but they are quantifiable reasons.

WHOA what?
Please elaborate that for me, if you got time. I don't get how women rights harm another person and dont fall in the same homosexual category rights. Which is acceptance of the human kind as all.
To me sounds horribly misogynistic.

It *is* horribly misogynistic. That's the point. Such a mentality is irrational completely. But there are reasons that these misogynists have for their bigotry that extend beyond a base instinctual/internalized reaction. There are NO such reasons homophobes have. Misogynists can rationalize their bigotry hence misogyny is still a horrible issue, tragically. Homophobia cannot be rationalized whatsoever. Men view "feminism" as a threat onto them (I put feminism in quotes b/c what these misogynists consider feminism is clearly out of balance and negative). Homosexuality has absolutely zero affect, neither perceived nor real, on heterosexuals. So it's ultimately easier for a homophobe to accept homosexuality if they're straight than a straight man who is misogynistic.

I think the "show affection in public" its already here, as well as gay marriage in many states and countries, or is it not why the OP started the thread? [/quote]Marriage equality is legal in 9 states out of 50. And in zero states do same-sex couples have equal benefits to opposite-sex couples.

The majority of homosexual persons are closeted to one degree or another due to homophobia. Hate crimes against LGBTQ people happen at double the rate of any other group. Most LGBTQ people do not show affection towards their partners if they are of the same-sex, as a result of this.

If heterosexuals are asked to tolerate it and they do, one way or another, isn't the fight already over?

I don't know who is asking for tolerance. No-one seeks to simply be tolerated. I seek full legal and social equality, we see full legal and social equality. Not tolerance. I'm not a disease. And clearly, with the continued institutionalized discrimination non-heterosexuals continue to deal with globally, there is not wide-spread tolerance of homosexuality, let alone acceptance.

Also, what "its right" depends awful lot of the pov. Like what its right for a spider to kill a fly to keep existing, its not right for the fly. And for the fly to eliminate the spider existence is the right thing to do.

Insects aren't human beings.

I personally think, that what you will get is a person, like the OP to be the generality of the ppl, from here onto 10 years. Because you cant change people and their tastes, as you cant change your own.

Thousands of people have gone from homophobic to gay positive through the years. Homophobia isn't a "taste". It's an irrational bias. It's a socially constructed bias, and it *can* be changed, as several posters in this very thread attest.

Its not their fault to dislike public affection btwn gay ppl. You don't know their experiences in life, as well we don't know your own. So please do not encase them as homophobic while they are doing their best to adapt their minds to your way of living.

No, the fact they are homophobic in itself is not their fault. People have been indoctrinated into homophobia and it's completely understandable many would have damage and scars. The fact people are making excuses for why they continue to be homophobic deserves condemnation. If you choose to do wrong when you know you are doing wrong, you will be called out as wrong. It's not hard to figure out.

I'm not a disease. We're talking about two men or two women kissing and showing basic affection. We are not discussing people trying to "adapt" to something like pedophilia or gun violence.

You see, respect and tolerance comes back and forth, if u cant respect that someone simply dislikes your way of being but lets you do whatever you wish. You are the same as the bigots that actively want you to stop to be WHO YOU ARE.

Don't ever compare homosexuality and homophobia again.

Here is an example:
I have a huge fear of a plane crashing down while im in it.
Its not fear to fly, nor to airplanes per-se. But the fear something might happen and if it does i have a 0.1% of surviving.
I have had that fear since i was 8, im 26 now. And you know to how many planes i have traveled in?
Hehehe a lot, i have lost count, probably 2 or 3 times a year i have to fly somewhere.
And im always terrified that it will crash, EVERY SINGLE TIME. It get reduced a bit, just a bit with the times i fly, but its still there, i still fear it.
But i fly around the world.

The same is with homophobes or ppl like the op. They can't and won't get past it, because u simply can't but they will tolerate it, while it's happening.

Having fear of crashing in a plane while you're inside is a fear that can be rationalized, and isn't completely irrational and baseless. Homophobia is completely irrational and baseless. It's also not a crippling phobia like fear of flying or heights. It's not something that causes you to immediately panic and shake and want to get away from the situation at once. It's not a phobia like arachnophobia. It's not a disorder. You want to pity homophobes and I'm not going to go along with it.

I used "invented" for the lack of a better word. Thats why i quoted it.
" fundamental lack of knowledge regarding evolution." <<---about that. So enlight me how else evolution works. If not by procreation and selection of the better genetics, by the triggers of chemicals called love, attraction, smell, etc etc. That lead to sex and make a better spawn of both, evolving.

Evolution works based on the sum of all parts, of all things, working together to create the best possible, most healthy society. Natural society, human society. Things are judged based on their overall value to the entire evolutionary process. That's why thinking sex=procreation is wrong because there are OTHER benefits to sex that give benefit to the overall value of society. That's why it's wrong to classify homosexuality as unnatural. There are benefits to homosexuality that don't include procreation which give it positive value to the entire evolutionary cycle, and natural world.

Yes the problem there is: they can procreate and seek to procreate IN THEORY, but can't with the desired partner unless your human, you have money, and as someone quoted me up there, the technology makes it possible.

Desired partner? LOL. Desired partner? Homosexuals don't desire the opposite sex.

Sperm+egg=baby. Natural birth.

 

[101flyboy]

How old are you? You don't have to tell me your exact age but you seem young to me. Like you're finding yourself. You also are clearly an open-minded guy. You'll get over your discomfort, I'm sure. You still have to grow and understand and embrace yourself before you can completely understand and embrace what you find uncomfortable right now. It's alright. You're honest about your feelings all-around and that's the first step.

Haha
I'm 26. I'm pretty well found. I just completely disregard all my mental filters on The Escapist (seems a good place to escape from having to be polite or keeping up appearances).
It throws people off when you're ridiculously honest.


But yea, it is what it is.
Guys interacting sexually or especially intimately just flips the switches that weird me out, and not in the just "uncomfortable around something unfamiliar" way.
Sounds mean, but it's more in the instinctive sort of way that seeing a roach land on a friend's hand would cause.

I just tend to be super-rational and ponder the hell out of everything, but I can't figure out how the hell the obvious contradiction could possibly make logical sense.
It annoys me when I can't make sense of things, but I've learned that I'm just a never-ending mess of contradicting facts in general, so I just kinda let this stuff go to be what it is.
*shrug*

I think you need to think a little bit less about it You freak out when two guys show affection, and you're also sort of freaking out about freaking out when it comes to two guys showing affection. You know how you operate so I can't tell you specifically what I would do, but when I was younger and a bit spooked when I saw two people of the same-sex kissing, I sort of shook my head around and opened my eyes wide, to clear my head. You have to do something to calm down a bit whenever the urge to freak out comes.

 

[101flyboy]

And evolution doesn't say you must do anything, i agree there. However nature dictates that if everyone were gay the species would go extinct and unless you assume that is what nature intended than obviously homosexuality is not a natural (as in "naturally intended") behavior.

Given that the "if everyone were gay" theory is a fallacious argument, your entire point becomes more or less void. Homosexuality is rampant in nature, causes no harm in itself, which makes it very much natural.

As I said a few pages back -

We are pretty much going in circles for like 8 pages now and it's starting to get tedious. People are too caught up in the whole evolution and "the goal of life" (philosophers have been discussing this for millennia, but every person against homosexuality has it all figured out) as if they are some omnipotent and conscious deities that DEMAND *something* from everyone and will punish us when we don't conform. That is silly and childish. The matter of fact is that as natural creatures on this earth, everything we CAN DO is natural by way of associative logic and by your definitions "nature" has ALLOWED humans and animals to be homosexual, it doesn't even matter why. It isn't hard to debunk the "unnatural" routine, but it requires more thought than "buuuuut it doesn't make babiiieeezzz waaaah". Neither does oral sex, but you don't whine about that.

And yes, OBVIOUSLY, if EVERYONE was gay and NEVER ONCE had sex with the opposite sex we would go extinct. But that isn't the case and it never will be, it's a stupid argument.

I don't get why you get so upset. First of all there is a big difference between ingrained instincts/subconscious processes and conscious processes. Instincts and many subconscious processes are genetically programmed into us, such as sexual orientation (unless you want to argue it's a choice). Conscious processes however are both affected by subconscious processes and nurture. Conscious processes are rarely "natural".

But you see here is the difference: oral sex is an unnatural action. Homosexuality is an unnatural "trait".
However as you may notice, since i hold no grudge on oral sex there is no reason to believe that i hold a grudge against homosexuality "because it's unnatural". You just assume that because I think A i also think B. I have actually previously stated that that was not true.

And whether it is the case now is irrelevant to the argument. The argument is there to determine if it could be naturally intended to be "programmed" with a homosexual nature. Do mind that genes undergo many mutations and what not, which can easily make the programming deviate from its initial intentions. And that also goes for other animals.

The only argument that you can now hold against me is that there is no evidence that genes affect sexual orientation. To which i preventively say: due to a lack of studies on the domain one can only speculate on the source however since sexuality seems to be very subconscious it seems plausible it is linked to our genetic coding.

Homosexuality isn't unnatural and that argument is not whatsoever a defense of internalized homophobia.

 

[Tragedy's Rebellion]

by stating that it's not that important what's thought, but rather on what's being acted on.

Yeah, no. We've been saying something QUITE DIFFERENT. It is NOT OK to nurture thoughts of homophobia, racism, sexism or any kind of baseless hate because of societal indoctrination. It is NOT OK to be disgusted internally by black people, it is NOT OK to think the woman's place is in the kitchen and it is NOT OK to think homosexuality is a spawn of the devil. Yes, it is WORSE to act upon those feelings, but who is to say some day you won't? "I trust myself" is not enough, because *we* don't trust *you*. Even then some people still act upon those feelings and are harming homosexual people and they wouldn't do that if they didn't think negatively about them.

You have no idea what it is to be constantly *thought* of as a deviant and abnormal abomination unfit for life let alone someone acting on those thoughts. Many homosexual people have committed suicide because of the hate and fear homophobia perpetuates while there is nothing wrong with being homosexual. You may think "oh, but *I* don't think black people should be put down. I think they should have equal rights! They are kinda gross though." then accidentally passing the last bit to your children and THEY then do something horrible. And that wouldn't be the case if you weren't a racist fuck.

That is why any kind of mindless hate and contempt on a MASSIVE scale is bad, I don't even know why I have to spell it out like this.

 

[101flyboy]

On this site though? How many gay people would you find on this relatively small site.

A lot. And this site and, quite frankly, much of the negativity against homosexuality on this site, is a microcosm of the gaming world in general and the fact homophobia is a significant issue in the gaming world. So there could be only 2-3 gays around, and these conversations would still have merit. Because homophobia can never go unchallenged if it is expected to be eliminated.

I appreciate what you're trying to do, certainly. I'm not dismissing your input, I'm just saying that you'd be better of fighting for gay rights elsewhere, instead of on this site where a similar thread is always active, and it's always the same pattern. party a asks about gayrights, party b defends, party c rejects, party b and c grapple, party d is done with this, gets pulled in etc. It's been going on for years, to my knowledge.

Running away from homophobia isn't the answer. If only ONE person is enlightened and sees something from these conversations that help allow them be more enlightened and educated, then something positive has been done. The fact that LGBTQ users know they have people, gay, straight and otherwise, there to back them and support them when necessarily, makes these debates worth it.

also, we should not be derailing any further, as the thread is not "is it worth it to argue over defending gay rights", but rather what the definition is. Which has been answered by loads of people, including me, by stating that it's not that important what's thought, but rather on what's being acted on. you can think many things, but if you don't act ('tell others of' 'let seep through'influence'etc. also counts under that) on any of it, it's not really anything to others.

Your definition of homophobia is wrong and that's actually the entire crux of the issue. People denying homophobia exists on this forum, people denying their own internalized homophobia, people making excuses for homophobia. It's all homophobia in the end. Nothing has been derailed, it's simply been expanded and diversified.

Homophobia is an irrational fear of, aversion towards and/or discrimination/hatred against homosexuality/homosexuals. It's a wide range of negative attitudes against homosexuality, because homosexuality is homosexuality.

Hence, having a negative bias against two men kissing *because* they are two men is homophobic. It doesn't mean you as a man are a homophobe, but you do have internalized homophobia, it is a problem, it isn't really OK and the "homosexuality is disgusting" mentality is likely the single most reason why homosexuality is demonized. So it is a BIG deal, and although it's good you tolerate homosexuality and don't impose your views on gay people and as long as you do that, then it's "fine" to believe as you do. It's fine, but it's not OK. And the fact you continue making excuses for your bias make it even worse.

So there OP, you have the answer. Now let's stop advocating about the rights of gay-people, because basically anyone with at least 3 braincells will agree that gays have the same rights as nongays, and that just because they're gay doesn't make them lesser, evil, stupid, weird, or some other negative adjective. And that's pretty much all I'll have to say and read about this entire thread.

Homophobia directly impacts the social and legal rights of LGBTQ citizens. Without homophobia, we would already have full equality. So the issue of gay rights is completely relevant when discussing homophobia. Homophobia is ultimately the buffer that is keeping non-heterosexual citizens from full acceptance in our society, as equal legal citizens under the law.

 

[101flyboy]

And by even posting in this thread, you are acting on your homophobia. By turning your head, you are acting on your homophobia. By making a face, and freaking out, you are acting on your homophobia. Not acting on your internalized bias would be NOT HAVING any bias. Being slightly uncomfortable for external reasons isn't an active bias and most people can get over this quickly and learn to repress this bias. Being disgusted is a bias. Being disgusted is a condemnation. Not having internalized homophobia means that homophobia has been repressed to the point it's effectively dormant in your system.

 

[Luciella]

Homosexuality has absolutely zero affect, neither perceived nor real, on heterosexuals. So it's ultimately easier for a homophobe to accept homosexuality if they're straight than a straight man who is misogynistic.

Yet again they hate homosexuals and what people hate becomes a threat.

I don't know who is asking for tolerance. No-one seeks to simply be tolerated. I seek full legal and social equality, we see full legal and social equality. Not tolerance. I'm not a disease. And clearly, with the continued institutionalized discrimination non-heterosexuals continue to deal with globally, there is not wide-spread tolerance of homosexuality, let alone acceptance.

Yet, you start with tolerance and build up from there.
If you get an homophobe to be tolerant, hey i would say thats a big gain. But probably that same ex-homophobe will never become a person who will truly accept gays. Yet his/her kids or the grandkids will do accept it.

I believe its awfully bad to pressure beyond the limits of a person, the reactions you get are not normally the ones desired.

Insects aren't human beings.

Come on, you understood it perfectly as an analogy, don't play dumb.

Thousands of people have gone from homophobic to gay positive through the years. Homophobia isn't a "taste". It's an irrational bias. It's a socially constructed bias, and it *can* be changed, as several posters in this very thread attest.

That its like saying "being gay" is irrational and "can" be changed. Common, how many gays become full heteros?

No, the fact they are homophobic in itself is not their fault. People have been indoctrinated into homophobia and it's completely understandable many would have damage and scars. The fact people are making excuses for why they continue to be homophobic deserves condemnation. If you choose to do wrong when you know you are doing wrong, you will be called out as wrong. It's not hard to figure out.

This goes again into the rightness pov of each person. I don't see in the wrong, for example, the OP. He doesn't like to see men kissing and he just turns away, that's about it.
He won't go and manifest agains't you or gay marriage. It's like sado/maso people tolerate it, but they would rather just turn around when it happens, because they don't feel confortable about it.

Don't ever compare homosexuality and homophobia again.

Why not? It's the two sides of the coin.

Having fear of crashing in a plane while you're inside is a fear that can be rationalized, and isn't completely irrational and baseless. Homophobia is completely irrational and baseless. It's also not a crippling phobia like fear of flying or heights. It's not something that causes you to immediately panic and shake and want to get away from the situation at once. It's not a phobia like arachnophobia. It's not a disorder. You want to pity homophobes and I'm not going to go along with it.

A fear is always irrational. Thats why its a fear.
Inventing a word i would call it "crashphobia" and i have tried so many times to make it rational, and no its not, its simply irrational , no matter how many times i tell myself that i have the same probability of crashing in a plane than to win the lottery. I STILL FEAR IT.
For homophobia there is a base, le it be an exp or taught to fear or hate it, its deep within the person, and almost no way to exorcise it.
Yes some homophobes change to homosexuality, but -and i might be wrong, because i havent done the research- its because they already know they are gay but want to deny it to the extreme.
Yet, probably the 90% of the homophobes are not like that, or so it seems.

Evolution works based on the sum of all parts, of all things, working together to create the best possible, most healthy society. Natural society, human society. Things are judged based on their overall value to the entire evolutionary process. That's why thinking sex=procreation is wrong because there are OTHER benefits to sex that give benefit to the overall value of society. That's why it's wrong to classify homosexuality as unnatural. There are benefits to homosexuality that don't include procreation which give it positive value to the entire evolutionary cycle, and natural world.

You are misunderstanding evolution -as a biological fact- with civilization -as a human fact-
Tell me, what are the benefits to homosexuality for an species, purely in biological terms, no moral, no civilization, just genes.

Desired partner? LOL. Desired partner? Homosexuals don't desire the opposite sex.

Sperm+egg=baby. Natural birth.

Yeah you didn't got that one. YOUR DESIRED PARTNER, which is another man.
What i mean is, only as human, only with money, and only -and if- the technology is available, a baby that comes from two men cells is possible.

 

[Tragedy's Rebellion]

snip

This time I'm hung up because of your severe ignorance on the issue. There have been many, many studies conducted on homosexuality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjd7hMhoeAM

Watch this. (sorry, forgot how to embed)

And just to be clear I'm not gay, nor am I black or a woman, but I don't find two guys kissing disgusting even for a second or think homosexuality or oral sex is "unnatural" or think black people are "slightly gross".

 

[generals3]

snip

This time I'm hung up because of your severe ignorance on the issue. There have been many, many studies conducted on homosexuality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjd7hMhoeAM

Watch this. (sorry, forgot how to embed)

And just to be clear I'm not gay, nor am I black or a woman, but I don't find two guys kissing disgusting even for a second or think homosexuality or oral sex is "unnatural" or think black people are "slightly gross".

Based on the video you linked it seems you misunderstood the "not a lot of study" part. It's mainly about the effect of genes on sexuality. Not about homosexual behavior across history/nature. (And "a lot" is relative. Due to contradictory findings you'd need really looots of studies to be able to make claims with a relative certainty)

 

[Tragedy's Rebellion]

I think this thread has gone long enough. It just revealed that most people have a fundamental lack of knowledge regarding evolution, nature, social constructs and are severely uninformed (or never cared in the first place) about how their actions and thoughts have consequences for other people. Furthermore, they are just plain unwilling to better themselves and only grasp at their single thread of "logic" regardless of what EVIDENCE is presented.

I can't say I'm really surprised though.

 

[NightmareExpress]

The word, if taken in it's literal sense, would mean "fear of the same (sex)".
So under that definition, I imagine everyone who feels irrationally fearful of homosexuals or homosexual activity to be homophobic to some degree. Then there's the "extreme" spectrum of homophobia that includes acts of violence and complete avoidance toward those who identify as homosexual individuals...but I feel as though that's going more towards blatant discrimination.

Getting toward what was mentioned in the original post, homophobia typically applies to one's own gender ("the same" in this case referring to one's own gender). If you are a straight individual, viewing more than one member of the opposite sex "getting it on", as you will, would seem arousing because you recognize it as two people of the gender that you're attracted to. "More of a good thing in the same place", to put it in simpler terms.

There indeed exists people who hold the idea of members of the same gender being together with great disdain (regardless of what gender they are). I like to think of them as "true" homophobics, because holding one homosexual pair in neutrality/disdain while enjoying the other seems a tad paradoxical when you look at it from an idea standpoint (as "the same" can also refer to other people's genders).

That's my thoughts on the matter.
At one point I would have identified as homophobic, but that was a good deal of years ago when I was young, ignorant and desiring of social acceptance. I'm glad to have matured since then.

 

[101flyboy]

I mean, we're talking to people who think homophobia and being gay are comparable. It is literally like talking to a brick wall. These people JUST.DON'T.GET.IT. It's pointless to even discuss these issues with people who straight up refuse to listen. Which is why my mentality has always been "fuck it", because eventually, you just need to look out for yourself, your loved ones, your community and fuck the rest. There is no point in arguing with willfully ignorant people.

 

[101flyboy]

I think this thread has gone long enough. It just revealed that most people have a fundamental lack of knowledge regarding evolution, nature, social constructs and are severely uninformed (or never cared in the first place) about how their actions and thoughts have consequences for other people. Furthermore, they are just plain unwilling to better themselves and only grasp at their single thread of "logic" regardless of what EVIDENCE is presented.

I can't say I'm really surprised though.

Nothing surprising at all. There is nothing else to say. Oh well, at least there are many people here who are not completely offensive, ignorant, insulting and defensive about everything. Those that are simply prove how ignorant, misinformed and averse people can be against homosexuality. Best thing to do is educate our youth and make sure the damage doesn't become too ingrained into their psyches so that they become completely resistant to change.

 

[101flyboy]

Homosexuality has absolutely zero affect, neither perceived nor real, on heterosexuals. So it's ultimately easier for a homophobe to accept homosexuality if they're straight than a straight man who is misogynistic.

Yet again they hate homosexuals and what people hate becomes a threat.

I don't know who is asking for tolerance. No-one seeks to simply be tolerated. I seek full legal and social equality, we see full legal and social equality. Not tolerance. I'm not a disease. And clearly, with the continued institutionalized discrimination non-heterosexuals continue to deal with globally, there is not wide-spread tolerance of homosexuality, let alone acceptance.

Yet, you start with tolerance and build up from there.
If you get an homophobe to be tolerant, hey i would say thats a big gain. But probably that same ex-homophobe will never become a person who will truly accept gays. Yet his/her kids or the grandkids will do accept it.

I believe its awfully bad to pressure beyond the limits of a person, the reactions you get are not normally the ones desired.

Insects aren't human beings.

Come on, you understood it perfectly as an analogy, don't play dumb.

Thousands of people have gone from homophobic to gay positive through the years. Homophobia isn't a "taste". It's an irrational bias. It's a socially constructed bias, and it *can* be changed, as several posters in this very thread attest.

That its like saying "being gay" is irrational and "can" be changed. Common, how many gays become full heteros?

No, the fact they are homophobic in itself is not their fault. People have been indoctrinated into homophobia and it's completely understandable many would have damage and scars. The fact people are making excuses for why they continue to be homophobic deserves condemnation. If you choose to do wrong when you know you are doing wrong, you will be called out as wrong. It's not hard to figure out.

This goes again into the rightness pov of each person. I don't see in the wrong, for example, the OP. He doesn't like to see men kissing and he just turns away, that's about it.
He won't go and manifest agains't you or gay marriage. It's like sado/maso people tolerate it, but they would rather just turn around when it happens, because they don't feel confortable about it.

Don't ever compare homosexuality and homophobia again.

Why not? It's the two sides of the coin.

Having fear of crashing in a plane while you're inside is a fear that can be rationalized, and isn't completely irrational and baseless. Homophobia is completely irrational and baseless. It's also not a crippling phobia like fear of flying or heights. It's not something that causes you to immediately panic and shake and want to get away from the situation at once. It's not a phobia like arachnophobia. It's not a disorder. You want to pity homophobes and I'm not going to go along with it.

A fear is always irrational. Thats why its a fear.
Inventing a word i would call it "crashphobia" and i have tried so many times to make it rational, and no its not, its simply irrational , no matter how many times i tell myself that i have the same probability of crashing in a plane than to win the lottery. I STILL FEAR IT.
For homophobia there is a base, le it be an exp or taught to fear or hate it, its deep within the person, and almost no way to exorcise it.
Yes some homophobes change to homosexuality, but -and i might be wrong, because i havent done the research- its because they already know they are gay but want to deny it to the extreme.
Yet, probably the 90% of the homophobes are not like that, or so it seems.

Evolution works based on the sum of all parts, of all things, working together to create the best possible, most healthy society. Natural society, human society. Things are judged based on their overall value to the entire evolutionary process. That's why thinking sex=procreation is wrong because there are OTHER benefits to sex that give benefit to the overall value of society. That's why it's wrong to classify homosexuality as unnatural. There are benefits to homosexuality that don't include procreation which give it positive value to the entire evolutionary cycle, and natural world.

You are misunderstanding evolution -as a biological fact- with civilization -as a human fact-
Tell me, what are the benefits to homosexuality for an species, purely in biological terms, no moral, no civilization, just genes.

Desired partner? LOL. Desired partner? Homosexuals don't desire the opposite sex.

Sperm+egg=baby. Natural birth.

Yeah you didn't got that one. YOUR DESIRED PARTNER, which is another man.
What i mean is, only as human, only with money, and only -and if- the technology is available, a baby that comes from two men cells is possible.

I'm done with this thread for right now but I need to say that the fact you compare being born gay to being socially indoctrinated into a homophobic mentality and S&M sexual fetish and think homosexuality is a biological anomaly (do your own research on the benefits of homosexuality, and btw, as long as something doesn't actively cause harm, which homosexuality doesn't, it isn't a trait that is somehow "against" the evolutionary process) more or less says it all regarding your views on the subject.

You think being born gay and the choice of being homophobic is comparable and then expect a legitimate response from me in return? I don't think so. These last few days have been a waste of time. Get educated on the subject of homosexuality, or better yet, see what some on here who are educated on the subject have had to say, and then we can have an argument that actually means something.

 

[The Wooster]

This is perfectly natural and acceptable.

It's perfectly natural to want to throw up when two men kiss?

No. It isn't perfectly natural. And it's not acceptable. At all. Especially considering that there are numerous people in this very thread who have no real issue with two guys kissing.

I don't see threads with gay men saying "I hate seeing a man and woman kiss. It's disgusting!". You don't see threads like that because there isn't any socially indoctrinated stigma against heterosexuality.

There are numerous people in this thread who've admitted that seeing physical affection in public makes them uncomfortable regardless of the genders of those involved. I know a few gay men who find the idea of kissing women similarly unappealing.

 

[Zen Toombs]

Now let's stop advocating about the rights of gay-people, because basically anyone with at least 3 braincells will agree that gays have the same rights as nongays, and that just because they're gay doesn't make them lesser, evil, stupid, weird, or some other negative adjective. And that's pretty much all I'll have to say and read about this entire thread.

Okay, totally glad you think that gays and not-gays have the same rights. However, strictly speaking, that is simply not true. At least in America, gay couples cannot get married, with all the rights and benefits that entails (tax benefits, hospital visitation rights, etc). In addition, it is very legal to be fired from your job based upon your sexuality, as a number of gay and bisexual people have discovered. I'm glad you think that those things are stupid, but there are people who think differently and there are laws that say differently.

The person you were talking to may have been more in-your-face than they should have been, but this is still a serious and ongoing issue, and reasonable voices (just like yours) need to be heard in the public square.

 

[Zen Toombs]

-snip-

When possible, please use magical -snipping- powers or [spoiler tags] so that your posts don't get bonkers.

In addition, please calm down. You have gone off on a number of people throughout this thread, and not all of them were deserving of it. Yelling at bystanders with solid points does nothing to help the cause of "people should be treated equally, regardless of gender, race, creed, who you want to boink, etc".

There are numerous people in this thread who've admitted that seeing physical affection in public makes them uncomfortable regardless of the genders of those involved. I know a few gay men who find the idea of kissing women similarly unappealing.

I agree. I don't think that being uncomfortable with seeing public displays of affection is homophobic. It CAN be a sign of homophobia, but it is not inherently homophobic.