What is being homophobic?

[Darken12]

I've been avoiding this thread because I've no interest in repeating my arguments from the gaymer con thread. I will just say this:

This is extremely minor stuff. This subtle level of homophobia isn't going to disappear overnight. We'll just have to endure it and wait until it goes away on its own. If straight people are disgusted by the sight of a same-sex couple engaging in PDA, then that's frankly barely even worth mentioning. That shouldn't even be a blip in the radar.

The actual problem comes when this mild, absolutely ignorable level of homophobia starts getting more and more supporters, and eventually starts escalating because it doesn't find any dissenters. That's the only thing that worries me about topics like these. It's very easy for straight people (particularly straight males) to start building up from each other, bringing up all the tiny ways in which the LGBT movement has inconvenienced them (or hasn't done what they think it should have done), plus all their judgements on the LGBT community ("gays are unnatural because nature," bisexuals are just sluts/perverts," "trans people are not right in the head," "genderqueer people and sexually fluid/unsure people are just wanting attention," and so on), and it starts escalating into true hate speech, or worse, hate crimes.

I have nothing against individual people who might be ignorant or slightly homophobic, but I am definitely wary of the mob effect.

 

[Jedi-Hunter4]

Disgust is a major line in the sand basically saying THIS IS WRONG. So whether people realize it or not, when you call basic same-sex affection disgusting, you're calling it wrong.

Not really, I'm Heterosexual and to a degree I find it fairly disgusting when you see any couple aggressively making out in public, Could be taking my younger brother out for the day who's like 4 (I don't want to have to be the one to explain that to him at that age), or be having my lunch, not everybody wants to see that. But I don't find the idea of people making out disgusting out at all, I enjoy it myself, so I'mm defiantly not classing the act as wrong, just seeing it in a public place.

So I myself am a walking talking contradiction to everything you just said. So can't what this guy is saying simply mean that its not that he does not approve, just that he does not wish to see it. Plus its a little contradictory to call him homophobic when he has a different reaction to 2 females. I'm yet to meet some one that like "good on you" about female homosexuals but then has a genuine dislike of male homosexuals, seems a little contradictory to be white washing him as homophobic.

With that brush I'm a self loathing Heterophobe.

Edit: re-reading hist post I will admit his reaction is a little OTT, but like a lot of the posters on here he's probably on the younger side of 20, cut him a break, might just be a kid, not everyone is a Homophobe some people just need to grow up a bit.

Edit: have seen reading yet more posts that this has already been addressed, feel free to ignore this post.

 

[Jedi-Hunter4]

The actual problem comes when this mild, absolutely ignorable level of homophobia starts getting more and more supporters, and eventually starts escalating because it doesn't find any dissenters. That's the only thing that worries me about topics like these. It's very easy for straight people (particularly straight males) to start building up from each other, bringing up all the tiny ways in which the LGBT movement has inconvenienced them (or hasn't done what they think it should have done), plus all their judgements on the LGBT community ("gays are unnatural because nature," bisexuals are just sluts/perverts," "trans people are not right in the head," "genderqueer people and sexually fluid/unsure people are just wanting attention," and so on), and it starts escalating into true hate speech, or worse, hate crimes.

I'm not being funny but your trying to defend the LGBT an then you write this paragraph which in itself is a prejudiced Heterophobic rant against Hetro males. I barely ever get pissed off about anything that some people say on the net that should offend me.

But I'll be honest as a Hetro male, this flipping pissed me off. It works both ways, even if you are a Hetro male, who are you to paint me and many of my friends & family with the brush that if we all get together we are possibly all going to become massive homophobes, based souly off our sexuality and gender.

You spout equality and then write that...

And don't deny it you said "very easy for straight people (particularly straight males) " that is prejudiced. Yer so cheers for that, speaking about equality and having now phobics of any kind, but yer because I'm strait and a male, its apparently very easy for me to be Homophobic.

 

[Darken12]

I'm not being funny but your trying to defend the LGBT an then you write this paragraph which in itself is a prejudiced Heterophobic rant against Hetro males. I barely ever get pissed off about anything that some people say on the net that should offend me.

But I'll be honest as a Hetro male, this flipping pissed me off. It works both ways, even if you are a Hetro male, who are you to paint me and many of my friends & family with the brush that if we all get together we are possibly all going to become massive homophobes, based souly off our sexuality and gender.

You spout equality and then write that...

And don't deny it you said "very easy for straight people (particularly straight males) " that is prejudiced. Yer so cheers for that, speaking about equality and having now phobics of any kind, but yer because I'm strait and a male, its apparently very easy for me to be Homophobic.

Let me put it like this: most hate crimes against the LGBT community are committed by straight and usually white males. This isn't discrimination, this is fact. Just like a woman has every right to fear rape when surrounded by straight males (because most rapists are straight males), I have a right to fear hate speech or hate crimes when a bunch of straight males start talking about the things that the LGBT community does that piss them off.

I understand that it's unfair to paint you in the same brush as everyone else when I don't know you and you've probably done nothing wrong, but you can't blame us for being wary of situations that can turn ugly. Look at the whole Sarkeesian debacle, or the gaymer con thread, or any time anyone implies that there's something that can be improved about the gaming industry or the gaming community. Everyone jumps at the throat of the dissenter, and if left unchecked, the mob effect takes place and escalation becomes fact. If you are different, then good for you. But you aren't the only straight male in the crowd, and I'm not wary of you, I'm wary of the other ones.

 

[Jedi-Hunter4]

I actually have read that many men who have been raped do end up resenting gay men. They blame gay men for their rape. When they think of gay it takes them back to that place when they were abused. A major amount of them become confused in their orientation, and they don't want to be gay or don't feel right in being gay. And you're right that the fear, with men at least, of losing control is a big deal. The man is no longer the protector role with another man. You no longer automatically have control over your spouse. It's an feeling of vulnerability men don't like. The fear a gay man will treat a straight man the way straight men treat women. Misogyny is also in play. A lot of gay/bi men don't like receiving anal sex for the same reason, not having control.

Your talking about equality and acceptance, yet there are multiple Hetrophobic statements in this (that's right equality, acceptance and exemption from prejudiced should be afforded to all believe it or not)

- It's not acceptable to say all strait men take up the "protector role" that's a gender stereotype
- It's not acceptable to say strait men enjoy control over their female spouses
- It's not acceptable to say things like "The fear a gay man will treat a straight man the way straight men treat women" what exactly are you trying to say about how strait men treat their female partners.

If I were to go after you in the same way you have gone after some of the people in this topic (for saying far less blatantly offensive things) I would be branding you a Hetrophobe, because what you have just said there IS offensive, I am offended.

Your comments are narrow minded and untrue. I can assure you as Hetro male, I've had several relationships where at no point did I feel "in control" in anyway let along have control over my partner. Your description essentially makes it sound as if hetro males enjoy abusive relationships over women in the form of a power complex over their partners. As well as making strait women out to be fairly weak and open to accepting abuse.

I'd say get off that high horse your on. Stop branding people with that Homophobic iron and look at your own views because if you believe any of that then you have Hetrophobic veiws.

An before you go demanding my veiw's, to find out if I'm a "vengeful strait homophobe". I couldn't give a crap about anyone's orientation (as long as its that of consenting adults) and seemingly unlike yourself I don't build up offensive veiws of others with different orientations. My one comment I will say about sexual orientation is I do find it sad we are still at a level of lack of acceptance where it still NEEDS to be discussed.

 

[Jedi-Hunter4]

Let me put it like this: most hate crimes against the LGBT community are committed by straight and usually white males. This isn't discrimination, this is fact. Just like a woman has every right to fear rape when surrounded by straight males (because most rapists are straight males), I have a right to fear hate speech or hate crimes when a bunch of straight males start talking about the things that the LGBT community does that piss them off.

I understand that it's unfair to paint you in the same brush as everyone else when I don't know you and you've probably done nothing wrong, but you can't blame us for being wary of situations that can turn ugly. Look at the whole Sarkeesian debacle, or the gaymer con thread, or any time anyone implies that there's something that can be improved about the gaming industry or the gaming community. Everyone jumps at the throat of the dissenter, and if left unchecked, the mob effect takes place and escalation becomes fact. If you are different, then good for you. But you aren't the only straight male in the crowd, and I'm not wary of you, I'm wary of the other ones.

It's still racism and Hetrophobia. I've heard moron's use the exact same argument why they are wary of certain ethnic groups, or why they won't hire certain ethnicity's for a job because they will steal and the stats show... taking 0 account of other attributing factors. Someone's race and someone sexual orientation does not make them any more likely that an individual will exhibit certain behaviors or commit certain acts. Stats can tell you if you spin a giant wheel of people from that group you may be more likely to find one of those people, it tells you nothing about the individual.

I don't know you, I don't know if you have received abuse for what every category you happen to fall into and that's why your wary.

But it's still offensive in the same way it would be offensive to say, "I fear getting robbed in certain areas of the country when there are allot of black people around as crime statistics say this...." Just because your aiming it at the majority group in the western world does not make it okay.

"the mob effect takes place and escalation becomes fact" agreed it is. But it's still a racist and Hetrophobic view to be fearful of a group of white males, you know nothing about other than crime stats.

Prejudice is defined as a - Preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience.

To base your "baseline veiw" off stats is a prejudice. Not a right. Where you have an assumed veiw and they then have to change it by earning your trust is prejudice.

I'll put it like this as it is exactly the same thing. where I live per racial group a higher proportion of black people commit crime than any other racial group. Would I not been branded a racist left right and center, if I said when I see a black person I'm fearful they will commit crime. I know I'd think I was a racist if those were my veiws. It's like saying all Jew's are smart, all Americans own guns, all British people drink alcohol, because the stats show, a high percentage are smart/gun owners/drinkers than other groups. It's still a prejudice.

I know victims have more reason to be fearful. But going back to where I live, I was robbed at knife point by a black man, an saw the security guard bottled, again does that give me a right to fear black people? no. do I fear black people? no.

Because I know every person is an individual and stats mean nothing to the individual.

 

[Darken12]

-snip-

I never said I wasn't prejudiced. I am, I will readily admit it. But my kind never beat up a straight person for being straight, or committed any hate crimes against a straight majority. As such, I reserve the right to remain prejudiced until the playing field is levelled. What I have against you is a butter knife. My words of prejudice cannot harm you in any way. What your kind has against mine is more like a broadsword. When we're both duelling with butter knives, I will probably make an effort to stop being prejudiced, but I doubt it will happen within my lifetime.

 

[Darken12]

Umm... whoa. This is complete and utter nonsense. A woman who fears being raped simply because she is in the company of straight males is a woman who has absolutely zero concept of what the people around her are thinking. The same goes for when you fear discrimination from straights simply because they are straights.

As a male myself, I am not going to debate over what a woman might or might not be thinking, and whether that's good or bad. I prefer not to pass judgement on something I have never experienced myself and am no expert on. I would rather give the benefit of the doubt to this hypothetical woman who has such fears, because I presume she must have some reason for them, even if they are merely statistics.

 

[Jedi-Hunter4]

-snip-

I never said I wasn't prejudiced. I am, I will readily admit it. But my kind never beat up a straight person for being straight, or committed any hate crimes against a straight majority. As such, I reserve the right to remain prejudiced until the playing field is levelled. What I have against you is a butter knife. My words of prejudice cannot harm you in any way. What your kind has against mine is more like a broadsword. When we're both duelling with butter knives, I will probably make an effort to stop being prejudiced, but I doubt it will happen within my lifetime.

Well its not exactly true there have been cases of homosexual people attacking strait people, there's morons and bigots in every sector of society. But lets face it there's a lot less homosexual people so there's going to be allot less of them. There has even been cases of homophobic attacks's by homosexual individuals.

"I reserve the right to remain prejudiced until the playing field is levelled." what do you mean by that? if you mean equal numbers I find it doubtful. Homosexual people are a (admittedly large) minority group, an its probably going to stay that way forever. If you mean equal rights, most decent country's have that as a given.

"What your kind has against mine is more like a broadsword." you've got a huge us and them complex. It's not my kind and your kind, we are the same kind, we just have different sexual orientations. Seriously this is backward thinking. It's not strait white people responsible for homophobic attacks it's moronic pigs, that belong in jail until they learn to act like human beings.

Your going to find wall after wall put up against you when trying to show people like that the error of their ways if you yourself are prejudice. A man who I look up to and respect a great deal, who faced oppression, martin luther king said

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."

"Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into friend"

And finally

"I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality... I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word."

He didn't teach people to be fearful of white people that oppressed and had oppressed black people for 100's of years and now look at America they have a black president. There may be a long way to go with fighting racism, but he was right and his dream is coming true, slowly but still changing for the better.

If MLK could fight for change with out prejudice, when being a member of a racial group that was ENSLAVED for 100's of years (i have never heard of the mass enslavement of homosexuals) then there's no excuse for your prejudiced, hetrophobic and frankly racist view.

I'm a member of the human race not an individual defined by what demographic I happen to fall in. You expect that, I expect that. Give that to everyone or you don't have a leg to stand on in demanding your own rights that your entitled to.

 

[Darken12]

I'm not asking you to debate what any women may or may not be thinking. I'm simply saying that any woman who assumes she is in danger of being raped simply because she is in the company of penis-Americans is a woman whose thinking is incorrect. Whether or not any actual women think such a laughable concept is beside the point.

It's the equivalent of white people who reflexively lock their car doors because they see a black person trying to cross the street over a block ahead.

Yes, but you speak from the vantage point of being a male who will probably never know the first thing about what it's like to be a woman or face such situations. While it might intellectually make little sense to you, it's possible there is information you're missing because you're not a woman.

Well its not exactly true there have been cases of homosexual people attacking strait people, there's morons and bigots in every sector of society. But lets face it there's a lot less homosexual people so there's going to be allot less of them. There has even been cases of homophobic attacks's by homosexual individuals.

Yes, do mention the statistical outliers and exceptions to disprove the statistical majorities. That sure is statistically meaningful.

"I reserve the right to remain prejudiced until the playing field is levelled." what do you mean by that? if you mean equal numbers I find it doubtful. Homosexual people are a (admittedly large) minority group, an its probably going to stay that way forever. If you mean equal rights, most decent country's have that as a given.

I meant equal weaponry. LGBT hate crimes are on the rise [http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/10/fbi-data-hate-crimes-against-lgbt-people-on-the-rise/], so until all we have against each other are words and prejudice, it's not going to be a level playing field.

"What your kind has against mine is more like a broadsword." you've got a huge us and them complex. It's not my kind and your kind, we are the same kind, we just have different sexual orientations. Seriously this is backward thinking. It's not strait white people responsible for homophobic attacks it's moronic pigs, that belong in jail until they learn to act like human beings.

Make absolutely no mistake, we are not the same kind. For as long as we are still discriminated against, for as long as we are the victims of hate speech, hate crimes and unequal rights under the law, we will never be the same kind.

Your going to find wall after wall put up against you when trying to show people like that the error of their ways if you yourself are prejudice. A man who I look up to and respect a great deal, who faced oppression, martin luther king said

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."

"Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into friend"

And finally

"I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality... I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word."

Some people have no light or love to fight with. So we fight with what we have. I understand I am a disappointment to Mr. King, but that's the way it is.

He didn't teach people to be fearful of white people that oppressed and had oppressed black people for 100's of years and now look at America they have a black president. There may be a long way to go with fighting racism, but he was right and his dream is coming true, slowly but still changing for the better.

If MLK could fight for change with out prejudice, when being a member of a racial group that was ENSLAVED for 100's of years (i have never heard of the mass enslavement of homosexuals) then there's no excuse for your prejudiced, hetrophobic and frankly racist view.

I'm a member of the human race not an individual defined by what demographic I happen to fall in. You expect that, I expect that. Give that to everyone or you don't have a leg to stand on in demanding your own rights that your entitled to.

That's terribly easy for you to say, when all of this is effectively foreign to you. It's awfully easy to lecture me about prejudice when the worst you've suffered is people being wary of you because you might commit a hate crime or spew hate speech. While I understand that you are ultimately right, I just don't have it in me to be anything but petty towards people who have no idea what it means to be in a marginalised group and come to lecture me about equality.

 

[The Material Sheep]

Darken12 you are stating you are a prejudiced and therefore irrational and admittedly biased personality. You have no intent to claim any sort of objectivity and berate other people from a perspective of blatant unapologetic prejudice for the exact same things your guilty of. Don't give this not all bigotry is equal crap. It's a BS excuse your giving to feel superior to everyone else, and not have to answer for your mean spirited hateful comments.

When you admit in a debate that you are holding an irrational stance you've defeated your point. We can't take that seriously, because whether or not in anyway one can ever truly be unbiased, not even attempting to be objective and stand back from the discussion with a bit of detachment is not conducive to any proper discussion. If you have no intent to try and approach the discussion rationally, why would any of us extend you the same courtesy? Why should anyone want to you about anything that they may have an opposing view point on?

Your bigotry is not justified. Your willful ignorance is not conducive to a proper discussion. You really need to stop bringing out this hateful BS in threads like this because ultimately it's hard to read some of the nasty things that are being typed out.

People like you are the reason I could never be around LGBT groups. They always have a person who is so mean spirited, hateful and angry that every situation is just this toxic argument. This woe is me attitude permeated every discussion, and just pure unapologetic irrational hatred perked up at every corner. I understand the reason for being pissed off at those who personally propagated such things, but at the end of the day your hatred is not justified if its not towards anyone but them.

 

[Darken12]

Darken12 you are stating you are a prejudiced and therefore irrational and admittedly biased personality. You have no intent to claim any sort of objectivity and berate other people from a perspective of blatant unapologetic prejudice for the exact same things your guilty of. Don't give this not all bigotry is equal crap. It's a BS excuse your giving to feel superior to everyone else, and not have to answer for your mean spirited hateful comments.

When you admit in a debate that you are holding an irrational stance you've defeated your point. We can't take that seriously, because whether or not in anyway one can ever truly be unbiased, not even attempting to be objective and stand back from the discussion with a bit of detachment is not conducive to any proper discussion. If you have no intent to try and approach the discussion rationally, why would any of us extend you the same courtesy? Why should anyone want to you about anything that they may have an opposing view point on?

Your bigotry is not justified. Your willful ignorance is not conducive to a proper discussion. You really need to stop bringing out this hateful BS in threads like this because ultimately it's hard to read some of the nasty things that are being typed out.

People like you are the reason I could never be around LGBT groups. They always have a person who is so mean spirited, hateful and angry that every situation is just this toxic argument. This woe is me attitude permeated every discussion, and just pure unapologetic irrational hatred perked up at every corner. I understand the reason for being pissed off at those who personally propagated such things, but at the end of the day your hatred is not justified if its not towards anyone but them.

Listen to me. I have been nothing but respectful to you despite how much I vehemently disagree with you. There are many things I think of your stance on these issues that I do not publicise out of respect. I would appreciate it if you did the same. And, also, we now have something in common. The reason I've never joined any LGBT groups was also because there's always someone like you there.

Also, in case you haven't noticed, they don't extend that courtesy to us in the first place. You are focusing on the small minority that is genuinely curious and willing to learn and with which a genuine discussion is possible, instead of the majority who wants to whine about everything the LGBT community is doing wrong.

 

[Jedi-Hunter4]

That's terribly easy for you to say, when all of this is effectively foreign to you. It's awfully easy to lecture me about prejudice when the worst you've suffered is people being wary of you because you might commit a hate crime or spew hate speech. While I understand that you are ultimately right, I just don't have it in me to be anything but petty towards people who have no idea what it means to be in a marginalised group and come to lecture me about equality.

Which is exactly why I gave you a leading figure from one of the two most heavily oppressed and persecuted groups in history black people and Jewish people.

"worst you've suffered" I haven't given my lifes story, I've tried to not bottle neck you, all you know about me is I'm strait white male from the UK. That leaves a whole host of possibility's.

Whether you like it or not if you want what you want you need good people who are in the majority groups to stand up and be counted with your cause, an in all honesty I'm incredibly vocal about my support for equality, but if all gay people held the same veiws as yourself, I don't think I would bother being that guy who bothers to create hassle for himself standing up for other people.

Look at Peter Norman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Norman his career was ruined for standing up and being counted for what was right and down right persecuted out from normal society, do you think he would of ran the risk of ruining his life if those guys had come to him an said "you probably won't help because your a white devil but..."

Most of the homosexual people I know (not all) are some of the most open minded, understanding and accepting people I've ever known, because yer they do know what its like to be a victim, or to be judged offhand. You seem to have gone the other way. So before you go and judge me and the group I happen to be a part of, if myself and a group of my friends saw yourself being beaten up because of your sexuality we would help, we would stop, we would call the police we would physically try and defend you if that's what it would take. I would still help you despite of your bigoted view, but there's allot of people who wouldn't, just think about it.

An whether you think it's trivial or not. It does hurt to think there are people that automatically think I'm a bigoted monster or that me an the majority of my social group are a group of thugs going to beat on them. Based souly on my sexual orientation, my skin color and my gender. In the same way it hurts anyone else to be judged like that. Whether it happens to an individual a few times a year or daily, is it still acceptable?

 

[The Material Sheep]

Darken12 you are stating you are a prejudiced and therefore irrational and admittedly biased personality. You have no intent to claim any sort of objectivity and berate other people from a perspective of blatant unapologetic prejudice for the exact same things your guilty of. Don't give this not all bigotry is equal crap. It's a BS excuse your giving to feel superior to everyone else, and not have to answer for your mean spirited hateful comments.

When you admit in a debate that you are holding an irrational stance you've defeated your point. We can't take that seriously, because whether or not in anyway one can ever truly be unbiased, not even attempting to be objective and stand back from the discussion with a bit of detachment is not conducive to any proper discussion. If you have no intent to try and approach the discussion rationally, why would any of us extend you the same courtesy? Why should anyone want to you about anything that they may have an opposing view point on?

Your bigotry is not justified. Your willful ignorance is not conducive to a proper discussion. You really need to stop bringing out this hateful BS in threads like this because ultimately it's hard to read some of the nasty things that are being typed out.

People like you are the reason I could never be around LGBT groups. They always have a person who is so mean spirited, hateful and angry that every situation is just this toxic argument. This woe is me attitude permeated every discussion, and just pure unapologetic irrational hatred perked up at every corner. I understand the reason for being pissed off at those who personally propagated such things, but at the end of the day your hatred is not justified if its not towards anyone but them.

Listen to me. I have been nothing but respectful to you despite how much I vehemently disagree with you. There are many things I think of your stance on these issues that I do not publicise out of respect. I would appreciate it if you did the same. And, also, we now have something in common. The reason I've never joined any LGBT groups was also because there's always someone like you there.

Also, in case you haven't noticed, they don't extend that courtesy to us in the first place. You are focusing on the small minority that is genuinely curious and willing to learn and with which a genuine discussion is possible, instead of the majority who wants to whine about everything the LGBT community is doing wrong.

Of course I focus on those who might agree with me! They're the only ones I bother to acknowledge or have a conversation with. The others aren't worth the conversation if they are irredeemable bigots which I don't think is 50% of the people. I think a lot of it is just plain ignorance. Unless you plan on killing a bunch of people, or using force to oppress them in the say way they are oppressing you now, they need to learn and come to agree with you, which many are and more people are changing everyday. You don't do that by just being angry and mean to everybody regardless of what they've personally done to you.

At the end of the day I don't care if your respectful to me. Just don't come to a conversation to spout bigotry like a woman is totally justified to fear of rape in the presence of males. Like many have said... its basically the equivalent of thinking a black guy is going to rob you if your alone on the street.

 

[101flyboy]

Look, at the end of the day, this is what it comes down to:

"I find two blacks kissing disgusting"=Automatically considered racist, condemned immediately.

"I find two whites kissing disgusting"=Automatically considered racist, condemned immediately.

"I find two Muslims kissing disgusting"=Automatically considered Islamophobic, condemned immediately.

"I find two fat people kissing disgusting"=You don't even hear people saying this. Why? Because it's considered inappropriate. Some who do say it, never act on this. They don't go out of their way to express their disdain by turning their heads, giving dirty looks and shouting fatties at these individuals.

Why? Because people are fucking respected for who they are...............but if you're gay? Game over. And if you can't see that and then realize that if you hold this position, defend this position, or somehow get mad at the gay community for being angry at the fact we're still looked at like mutants who are constantly trashed on, daily, with absolutely zero sense of sensitivity or understanding of what WE feel when we have to hear the fact our LOVE disgusts people and our existence makes up 2-3 times more likely to be targeted in hate crimes, then you're not someone I can considered a friend to our community.

You want to have a conversation? Fine. Starting it off with "gays always play victim", "stop being so angry", "two guys kissing is disgusting", is not the answer. If you want a conversation, first, listen to the people who have to DEAL with this crap on a daily basis. Some of you truly don't have a clue and that's not the problem; the problem is this lack of willingness to listen and constantly injecting your two cents in a situation you simply do not understand unless your experiencing it yourself or strongly linked with people who do.

It is wrong to be anti-gay and hold anti-gay positions. It's not a difference of opinion. It's not a justifiable viewpoint. It is wrong. And I get it, we've grown up in a homophobic world. Extremely homophobic world. Where everything is tailored around heterosexuality. But we're in a day and age where, there are more than enough people who do truly "get it" that the patience people have for those who don't is thin.

 

[The Material Sheep]

Okay Flyboy... but what if someone says that is how they feel, and they question what they should do about it. From a position of genuine ignorance of how to go forward? Like its not like they are actively choosing to feel that way, it's just a visceral response. I mean its very unfortunate and does require correction, but I don't find that immediate hostility is called for.

You can't stop that they genuinely feel that way, because its a learned response from society. Are you going to just call them anti gay, or a bigot when they aren't intentionally or maliciously going after homosexuals? A dismissive and or instantly hateful response to there honest question will only lead to them just dismissing you in return. You perpetuated ignorance at that point, and while they are still at fault for maintaining their ignorance, you weren't a helpful factor.

I think all I feel this thread needed was a less initially hostile response. The guy asked an honest question, reply honestly yourself. It's not a reasonable way to react, but that should always have seen the point. Thinking two guys sharing an intimate moment in public is unreasonable to be uncomfortable with if you are comfortable with other pairings. I wouldn't say it's bigotry or anti gay, but it isn't something to want to act as if it isn't a bad thing. I just think lightening up the conversation and not have it so quickly descend to accusations of bigotry is a more amicable atmosphere for everyone involved which is what idealy we should be looking to do.

 

[Silvanus]

Look, at the end of the day, this is what it comes down to:

"I find two blacks kissing disgusting"=Automatically considered racist, condemned immediately.

"I find two whites kissing disgusting"=Automatically considered racist, condemned immediately.

"I find two Muslims kissing disgusting"=Automatically considered Islamophobic, condemned immediately.

"I find two fat people kissing disgusting"=You don't even hear people saying this. Why? Because it's considered inappropriate. Some who do say it, never act on this. They don't go out of their way to express their disdain by turning their heads, giving dirty looks and shouting fatties at these individuals.

Why? Because people are fucking respected for who they are...............but if you're gay? Game over. And if you can't see that and then realize that if you hold this position, defend this position, or somehow get mad at the gay community for being angry at the fact we're still looked at like mutants who are constantly trashed on, daily, with absolutely zero sense of sensitivity or understanding of what WE feel when we have to hear the fact our LOVE disgusts people and our existence makes up 2-3 times more likely to be targeted in hate crimes, then you're not someone I can considered a friend to our community.

You have the truth of it here. A great many people decry the most basic, simplistic forms of bigotry, but simultaneously fail to empathise with the members of the minority community when the more insidious forms of prejudice are pointed out to them.

A straight person can show affection in public. A gay person often cannot. I'm not about to sympathise more with the passers-by, who due to lack of exposure, have a bit of a negative reaction. I'm going to sympathise with the guy who has to live his life in secrecy, possibly fearing the illogical disdain of his family and friends, or even violence.