What makes Dark Souls "good"?

[SamuelT]

Your friend is silly OP. At no point do you NEED a walkthrough. If you explore every nook and cranny, you're going to find anything you need to beat the game. Although if you want certain rings, help with completing certain quests for rewards, etc. That's where the walkthrough or wiki comes into play.

You can muscle your way through this game, but it's going to be painful. But when you have an X,Y,Z plan in place with specific builds in mind, it makes the game alot easier. But even with a perfect run through and perfect equipment, the game can still kick your ass. You are by no means invincible, even at max soul level.

That's what makes Dark Souls fun. It's the closest any RPG has come to a balanced skill/gear ratio in a long time.

How did you get past the arrows at Anor Londo, or Smough and Ornstein. I can't think of any skill or gear that could help you from either clusterfuck, unless it was just luck which is what I've been hoping for.

Both of those things require you to wear either heavy armour or bring along a greatshield, for a higher poise so you can just shrug off blows to the face without stumbling or falling back. After that, it's a matter of proper timing.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

I don't get what makes Gwyndolin evil. I get that he made an illusion of his sister because she left, but I don't know why. Also, the illusion sticks around after I kill him which is weird. However, he seems intent on me not coming into that tomb which just gives him a role as protector. I'm sure I am missing something because I wasn't searching for it. I don't ever read weapon descriptions. I know I killed Havel and I have his ring and armor, but I don't know who he is. Also, I never met onionhead again and it says he is from another land. Was that land where Demon Souls took place.

Well, I wouldn't really say Gwyndolin is evil, no more so than the Dragons who were oppressing humanity or the Lords who killed the dragons. As a god, its possible his full plans and intentions are beyond mortal scope. What we DO know is that Gwyndolin is the third and youngest son of Gwyn and perhaps the exact opposite of dear old dad (he's referred to as "Dark Sun Gwyndolin, and the Darkmoon Diety). Doesn't really fit the whole "bring and sunny" image Gwyn has. Gwyndolin was also sickly and frail compared to his brothers, and was thus actually raised as a woman, so there has to be some resentment on that part. Also, compared to the statues of Gwyn and the knights in his image, Gwyndolin looks corrupted and monstrous (he's made of snakes!). This would, at the very least, explain why Gwyndolin felt the need to hide behind the image of Gwynevere, who would be much better recieved as ruler of Anor Londo than the black sheep of the family.

Also, to read a bit further into it, Gwyndolin is the only god left in Anor Londo. He is in charge, something that his entire backstory implies should have never happened. It makes sense from a conjecture point (taking into account his manipulation of the player and others with Gwynevere and his personal convenant of bodyguard/assassins) that he has taken a shine to ruling and wants to stay in charge. This is backed up by the term used by the Darkmoon Blades for hunting other players. They call them "Blasphemers", for revealing Gwynevere to be a false god and killing Gwyndolin.

Oh, and Havel was a knight known as "The Rock", and one of Lord Gwyn's companions. He had a bunch of followers who styled themselves after him, and wore heavy armor made of stone. It was said that they never flinched or retreated from battle. Seriously, most of the lore and backstory is told through the item descriptions, you should read them!

 

[Burst6]

You seem really up to date on the lore which is very admirable because a lot of the wiki's might as well be strategy guides. You must play this a lot and it does seem interesting and unique, but there just isn't enough for me to get interested. I do like the setting and polytheism which is always the most interesting type of religion, so it has everything I need. I just would've liked a lot of these things explained because it makes it more immersive for me. If I don't know whats going on then my character doesn't, because he is a silent protagonist. Portal and the Half Lifes are really good at this. Even playing Portal for the first time, I wasn't surprised by the twist because of the memes that came out with its release that never died. (Fun fact: when the movie Psycho came out, newspapers had headlines saying not to spoil the movie.Which more things were like that :[ ) However, just by exploring and the overall tone I could tell something was wrong and yet I guess in Dark Souls I can be tricked into doing something I wanted to do. I don't want to be Dark Lord, but right now it's sounding like the only option because lighting the kiln sounds like failure and I didn't come all this way and am not going to get to the end just to fail.

Yeah the story is really tough to find in this game. It's for the type of people who like to collect items just to read their flavor text . A niche game. I play it mostly for the nice weighty combat and get my story mostly from the wiki.

Also, if you want to feel like the hero, talk to kaathe and have your history explained to you but light the kiln anyway.

There are a lot of different ways to interpret the ending. One is that eventually the humans will get taken over and another age will begin after the age of dark, so lighting the kiln will delay or prevent this cycle of destroying all those in one age to make way for another.

Really you can make either ending sound good.

 

[Sozac]

That's one way to do the story. I personally like that game that seriously get into lore like Dragon Age and Mass Effect. However, the way they do it in Dark Souls is pretty ingenious (intentional or not), because by giving a limited view of things it leaves more room for the imagination. Also, not saying a lot makes it so they can't contradict themselves. That being said, it would be nice to get a little motivation by the story by letting me know what I'm fighting for. I don't want to feel tricked in the end for actually wanting to keep the age of fire because I don't even know what that means for me. Also, I don't understand enemies motives. Why are a Dragonslayer and an Executioner just waiting for me in the Hall of the Gods? What are they doing there? I mean a lot of these will never be explained or even acknowledged. It could have been as simple as Gwynboobs saying "Sorry about my servants." Yet, she didn't so that just leaves me confounded. They could've been a couple on their honeymoon for all I know. This is one of those things my imagination can't really think up an answer to. Even if they were servants, why would it matter that one is a Dragonslayer and one is an executioner.

The idea is that most things in that land have gone crazy and hollow, and that's pretty much the only reason they're still there.

Spoiler

Everything in anor londo is either hollow, or in some other monstrous form. Gwynevere is just an illusion set up by Gwyndolin because he turned into some sort of monster. The real Gwynevere ran away a long time ago. The fire keeper is also hiding her form under that armor.

The only exception to this would be the giant blacksmith. I don't know his story.

Anyway it makes sense that Ornstein and Smough would be in anor londo. Smough is an executioner, and they tend to stay close to the people they work for so they can do their job.

Ornstein, on the other hand, was one of Gwyn's four elite knights (with Artorias, Gough, and Ciaran). He's called dragonslayer because all the four knight have a fancy name, like Artorias the Abysswalker, Hawkeye Gough, and Lord's Blade Ciaran.


The game only involves two of the knights (Ornstein and Artorias), but you can get all their special rings that tell you a bit about them. Also fun fact. They wanted to make Smough a knight like his friend Ornstein, but they didn't because he kept crushing the bones of those he executed and using the dust as spice.

You seem really up to date on the lore which is very admirable because a lot of the wiki's might as well be strategy guides. You must play this a lot and it does seem interesting and unique, but there just isn't enough for me to get interested. I do like the setting and polytheism which is always the most interesting type of religion, so it has everything I need. I just would've liked a lot of these things explained because it makes it more immersive for me. If I don't know whats going on then my character doesn't, because he is a silent protagonist. Portal and the Half Lifes are really good at this. Even playing Portal for the first time, I wasn't surprised by the twist because of the memes that came out with its release that never died. (Fun fact: when the movie Psycho came out, newspapers had headlines saying not to spoil the movie.Which more things were like that :[ ) However, just by exploring and the overall tone I could tell something was wrong and yet I guess in Dark Souls I can be tricked into doing something I wanted to do. I don't want to be Dark Lord, but right now it's sounding like the only option because lighting the kiln sounds like failure and I didn't come all this way and am not going to get to the end just to fail.

Dark souls doesnt force the story upon you, it makes you work for it. For example, There's a locket in the beginning, one of the optional gifts you can take, that makes people open up to you more in the dialogue. You can beat the game without really talking to any one, but itd be a shame. In case you missed it, theres a talk option for most of the npcs in the game. Its for you to piece together, and for you to fill in the blanks. I for one love the narrative groundwork they set for the game, its so mysterious and full of secrets, and really provides a great launching point for the imagination.

It may not force it on you, but this leads to the player not even understanding the stakes. I'm sure a lot of people just think it chooses to be "mysterious" so that the player can fill in there own, but others might think it just has very little story because that isn't what the game is about and its better to have little story than to have a large story because it can get away with it by making it seem mysterious. I don't know for sure the reason for this type of narrative because right now a lot is still left unexplained. This is leading to decisions that are going to be made without context. What I like about other RPG's with choices is that they at explain the least amount that you need to get context. For example, Dragon Age 2 presents you with a lot of decisions (albeit most of them usually have 2-3 choices) and you are usually informed by the dialogue what the choice means to the player. Not every choice is clear cut either. I remember how I always talked to characters and Isibella ended up liking me (which is odd because I found her to be a roguish Miranda clone). When she came back at the end of the second act and apologized, I still respected the Arishok a lot more and I really love the Qunari so I turned her in. I don't even care that she escaped later anyway. This is just one decision out of many. You get decisions in Dark Souls, but I have never thought of a reason for them beyond combat. Of course I killed the Moonlight Butterfly, Crossbreed Priscilla, and any optional bosses. They may not have been harming anyone, but I didn't know any better. Crossbreed Priscilla may say that her world is "peaceful", but to me its a painting with monsters, blob assholes, an undead dragon?, and she has a huge scythe. It seemed like hell in a painting to me. Maybe I did something good without knowing it.

 

[Sozac]

I don't get what makes Gwyndolin evil. I get that he made an illusion of his sister because she left, but I don't know why. Also, the illusion sticks around after I kill him which is weird. However, he seems intent on me not coming into that tomb which just gives him a role as protector. I'm sure I am missing something because I wasn't searching for it. I don't ever read weapon descriptions. I know I killed Havel and I have his ring and armor, but I don't know who he is. Also, I never met onionhead again and it says he is from another land. Was that land where Demon Souls took place.

While I can't tell you where Catarina is, I can help you with Seigmeyer.
You first encounter him waiting to enter Sen's Fortress. You then meet him contemplating how to wipe out a bunch of Silver Knights in Anor Lando.You must talk to him before, and after clearing the room.
You then will most likely encounter him before his daughter in Blight Town in front of the entrance to the great hollow. He needs three purple moss clumps.
You will encounter his daughter, Seiglind in a golden crystal monster outside the Duke's Archives on the way to kill Seathe.
Then you will see her at Firelink Shrine.
You then encounter Seigmeyer in Lost Izalith, where he pledges to save you from the "Will it blend?" demons. If you kill them before he attacks, you end the story. If you let him get below 50% HP, he dies and you end the story. If you save him, you go back to the bon fire at the start of Ash Lake to see the ending.

The game is rich in wonderful story, and it's hard to find sometimes, but this was my second favorite arc. First being how much of a dick you are for killing Quelaag.

Lol I never even encountered Seigmeyer once so I guess that's over for me. Also, Quelaag looked way too evil to be anything but that and this is one of the side stories I know a lot about(old witches ring). She wanted to like let all the people in Blighttown die or something. But her sister sacrificed herself by becoming infected instead. Its sad that her sister has no one to visit her (except her servant), but no boss has ever talked to me except Dark Sun Gwyndelon. I'm sure they'd be a treasure trove of info if they even said one word to me. Also, how do they know I'm the chosen Undead, or do they attack everyone who walks into their lair. Also, one weird thing is you'd think the Gods know each other or have an idea of whats going on in the world. If they start dying, you would think they would band together again. Sort of glad they didn't I like 1 v 1 way more.

 

[I Max95]

i hated the game, with a passion

call me a wimp but i hated it BECAUSE it was hard. it was too hard, to the point where it isnt fair, a single group of enemies can fuck you up so badly that you can't face the rest, bombs are dropped on you that are so powerfull they can kill you with one or two hits, and the level design forces you to face bosses after losing most of your health and health potions. Dark Souls left me jaded, broken, i felt as though my life and my willpower were sucked out of me while i played it, and during all of my failures and my many deaths, the game just seemed to laugh at me.

i returned it to the video store with a smile on my face
the only way for me to win, was not to play at all

 

[XUnsafeNormalX]

i hated the game, with a passion

call me a wimp but i hated it BECAUSE it was hard. it was too hard, to the point where it isnt fair, a single group of enemies can fuck you up so badly that you can't face the rest, bombs are dropped on you that are so powerfull they can kill you with one or two hits, and the level design forces you to face bosses after losing most of your health and health potions. Dark Souls left me jaded, broken, i felt as though my life and my willpower were sucked out of me while i played it, and during all of my failures and my many deaths, the game just seemed to laugh at me.

i returned it to the video store with a smile on my face
the only way for me to win, was not to play at all

I get the feeling you died in Undead Burg a lot.

Also the game isn't unfair, it just punishes failure and haste.

 

[I Max95]

i hated the game, with a passion

call me a wimp but i hated it BECAUSE it was hard. it was too hard, to the point where it isnt fair, a single group of enemies can fuck you up so badly that you can't face the rest, bombs are dropped on you that are so powerfull they can kill you with one or two hits, and the level design forces you to face bosses after losing most of your health and health potions. Dark Souls left me jaded, broken, i felt as though my life and my willpower were sucked out of me while i played it, and during all of my failures and my many deaths, the game just seemed to laugh at me.

i returned it to the video store with a smile on my face
the only way for me to win, was not to play at all

I get the feeling you died in Undead Burg a lot.

Also the game isn't unfair, it just punishes failure and haste.

Undead Burg wa the second level right?
if so, yes

you know a game is too hard when some people can't get get through the second level before calling it quits
the game's difficulty curve starts at 100 and only gets worse from there

 

[XUnsafeNormalX]

i hated the game, with a passion

call me a wimp but i hated it BECAUSE it was hard. it was too hard, to the point where it isnt fair, a single group of enemies can fuck you up so badly that you can't face the rest, bombs are dropped on you that are so powerfull they can kill you with one or two hits, and the level design forces you to face bosses after losing most of your health and health potions. Dark Souls left me jaded, broken, i felt as though my life and my willpower were sucked out of me while i played it, and during all of my failures and my many deaths, the game just seemed to laugh at me.

i returned it to the video store with a smile on my face
the only way for me to win, was not to play at all

I get the feeling you died in Undead Burg a lot.

Also the game isn't unfair, it just punishes failure and haste.

Undead Burg wa the second level right?
if so, yes

you know a game is too hard when some people can't get get through the second level before calling it quits
the game's difficulty curve starts at 100 and only gets worse from there

Doesn't mean the game is too hard, just that it's not the playstyle for everybody. You probably didn't fully understand the combat and more importantly the enemies considering you hadn't been playing it for very long.

 

[JasonKaotic]

I've only played the first hour or so, so you can probably disregard this. But I really wasn't very impressed by what I played. I know it was only an hour, but I really wasn't enjoying it. And I was getting completely smacked around by one of the first enemies, which didn't leave a good impression on me. And it all felt kind of clunky. I probably would've played more if I didn't get so many games around christmas, maybe when I play it more I'll end up enjoying it. That'll be after I finish the beacon of Squeenix redemption that is FFXIII.
*drools*

 

[XUnsafeNormalX]

I've only played the first hour or so, so you can probably disregard this. But I really wasn't very impressed by what I played. I know it was only an hour, but I really wasn't enjoying it. And I was getting completely smacked around by one of the first enemies, which didn't leave a good impression on me. And it all felt kind of clunky. I probably would've played more if I didn't get so many games around christmas, maybe when I play it more I'll end up enjoying it. That'll be after I finish the beacon of Squeenix redemption that is FFXIII.
*drools*

Oh God. Now FFXIII is a truly terrible game.

 

[Sozac]

i hated the game, with a passion

call me a wimp but i hated it BECAUSE it was hard. it was too hard, to the point where it isnt fair, a single group of enemies can fuck you up so badly that you can't face the rest, bombs are dropped on you that are so powerfull they can kill you with one or two hits, and the level design forces you to face bosses after losing most of your health and health potions. Dark Souls left me jaded, broken, i felt as though my life and my willpower were sucked out of me while i played it, and during all of my failures and my many deaths, the game just seemed to laugh at me.

i returned it to the video store with a smile on my face
the only way for me to win, was not to play at all

I get the feeling you died in Undead Burg a lot.

Also the game isn't unfair, it just punishes failure and haste.

Undead Burg wa the second level right?
if so, yes

you know a game is too hard when some people can't get get through the second level before calling it quits
the game's difficulty curve starts at 100 and only gets worse from there

Dude, if you were having in trouble in Undead Burg than I hate to say it, but there would be no hope for you in the later levels. I don't know if it was my character design, but a tank pyromancer was able to breeze through most normal enemies if you kept your shield up. I heard from my friend that a lot of the character choices were worse than others and it was better to be stacked in one or two stats than to try and be even. So I just boosted strength really high and it made normal enemies (and bosses in some cases) a lot easier. It made me slower, but I also have Havel's ring and the Mask of the Father so I can use a Giant's shield with Havel's armor, so no one can hurt me. That's why most of my deaths are from falling bs. Also, a lot of boss battles can wreck you if you don't have good strategy or if it is 2 v 1.

 

[Sozac]

I've only played the first hour or so, so you can probably disregard this. But I really wasn't very impressed by what I played. I know it was only an hour, but I really wasn't enjoying it. And I was getting completely smacked around by one of the first enemies, which didn't leave a good impression on me. And it all felt kind of clunky. I probably would've played more if I didn't get so many games around christmas, maybe when I play it more I'll end up enjoying it. That'll be after I finish the beacon of Squeenix redemption that is FFXIII.
*drools*

Oh God. Now FFXIII is a truly terrible game.

Lol, I never played a single FF game. When I heard there was more than ten I was just like "nope, not happening." Its not a fps where story doesn't matter, it was an intricate rpg that I didn't want to come in the middle of, and I didn't want to play so many games.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

I loved Dark Souls, sadly the majority (seemingly) of the community surrounding the game are "tough" guys who play HARD games for MEN.

You shouldn't need to look up a walkthrough. Part of the appeal of Dark Souls is the breadth of the game, it's absolutely filled with secrets, it does have an old world charm to it. It's set up very much like a traditional Metroidvania, there's a great sense of mystery that would be ruined if you were to search walkthroughs. The game really teaches you to learn from your mistakes, observe, so being patience with the game is paramount.

Speaking only of the mechanics, the combat is engrossing, I've play few games with such tight mechanics, there's visceral feel to it, every little movement counts. Every victory feels like you've earned it.

But what I liked most about the game was the sense of atmosphere. It throws you into a seamless world that feels alive. The game doesn't hand you anything, even the events of the plot are buried. It's a grim experience that few games can replicate. There's a genuine sense of ambience, it really is the kind of game that engulfs the player. Though the press and such put an emphasis on the difficulty, there's much more to it, it's a shame really.

The game is an experience, albeit an unrelenting one.

Edit: Also, there's a lot of mention that the "story" or plot is weak. I'd have to disagree, you just need to look in certain places to learn more. It's actually rather clever in places.

I agree here about the story. The story *is* fascinating but it's incredibly tricky to piece together and make coherent. Even when you do have "all" the information it takes some intuition and interpretation to decide what *you* think is happening.

And although it might seem at first as though they are, I like the fact that neither ending is really "good" or "bad"

Spoiler

I mean after all, the age of dark is MEANT to happen, and perhaps you should just let nature take it's course, and in fighting it you could bring about more pain and suffering. Or not. I might be a crazy person.

 

[Hydra Fun]

Well, after just rage quiting after about 3 hours of dark souls I asked myself "What have I accomplished in this game today?" Well... I beat the Capra Demon and the Gaping dragon, and it took me about 5 hours in total. For some reason I get the feeling that there is just something "off" about the ratio of challenge to reward in Dark Souls. It can't be denied that part of the satisfaction in beating the Capra Demon/Gaping Dragon comes from the fact that you succeeded after at least 3 failures. Yet it doesn't seem fair to make the player waste 20 minutes of their lives walking back to the battle (mostly referring to gaping dragon here). Especially since the walk back itself isn't challenging, its just a chore, a punishment even. Right now I'm desperately trying to like the game. Sometimes I do, but sometimes its just too damn frustrating to be fun.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Well, after just rage quiting after about 3 hours of dark souls I asked myself "What have I accomplished in this game today?" Well... I beat the Capra Demon and the Gaping dragon, and it took me about 5 hours in total. For some reason I get the feeling that there is just something "off" about the ratio of challenge to reward in Dark Souls. It can't be denied that part of the satisfaction in beating the Capra Demon/Gaping Dragon comes from the fact that you succeeded after at least 3 failures. Yet it doesn't seem fair to make the player waste 20 minutes of their lives walking back to the battle (mostly referring to gaping dragon here). Especially since the walk back itself isn't challenging, its just a chore, a punishment even.

I'm just past the Capra Demon and Gaping Dragon. Both bosses are literally only a couple minutes away from a bonfire. You don't have to go through the whole level again. And, I beat the Gaping Dragon on my 1st try, ranged attacks FTW.