What makes Dark Souls "good"?

[Skin]

It is my GOTY and probably one of the best games I have played in the last couple of years. Yes OP, we get it, you can point out the flaws of DkS, but if I put in the same effort you did, I could point out the flaws in all your favorite games as well.

I can admit its faults though and my biggest gripe with this game is that being a purist in your class is unbearable for the average being. There is no fucking point in playing a thief to a tee. Riposting is hard as fuck because even though the moves are predictable, the timing of their strike is not. The dagger does not have that much of an advantage over any other weapon (apart from multiplier and whatnot when it comes to backstabs). Grabbing a shield without 100% physical damage block is stupid, and so forth and so on.

The game definitely hits the point of convolution. But if we want to look at convoluted, we would being using any TES game as an example. Despite whatever its flaws, I like DkS because it is a great hack'n'slash/dungeon crawler game with well integrated RPG elements and an amazing setting.

 

[zombieshark6666]

Attitude.

From Software does not feel confident designing based on market data, so they will instead compete by creating a great game. - From Software

 

[Doclector]

I have barely got anywhere with that game, stuck on the damn capra demon. I could probably get through it if it werent for his dogs...but I love it pretty much because whereas in other hack and slash/rpg games, there will be enemies who are of little to no trouble, in dark souls, every time you encounter an enemy, there's a very real chance it'll kill you, even if it's just one hollow.

Every enemy feels like it's fighting for its life every bit as hard as you are.

It's definately not for everyone, though, so don't feel bad if you don't see the appeal, that's one of the things I respect most in dark souls. In an age where games and films and well, everything, is made cynically to a bunch of graphs saying which decisions will get the most sales, dark souls has dared to simply be dark souls, regardless of whether it sells or whether the majority of people like it.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Two things:
- very solid combat
- very detailed boss fights

That is pretty much all you can expect and if you didn't come in spoiling for a fight then you best not even start.
I do wish it came to PC so some of the asinine ideas could be modded, if these games had proper save systems they would probably be at the top of my RPG list but as they are now it stays in the "almost good" bucket.

 

[zombieshark6666]

I do wish it came to PC so some of the asinine ideas could be modded, if these games had proper save systems they would probably be at the top of my RPG list but as they are now it stays in the "almost good" bucket.

I'm glad the game will be allowed to remain as intended.

 

[godofallu]

I like the difficulty. It makes it so you are actually exploring as opposed to walking.

Traps actually matter, unlike other games too.

Oh and boss fights require changing your strategies.

 

[Gorilla Gunk]

The one thing I hate about this game is insanely high-leveled players invading my world and killing me with a single blow. It's fucking infuriating. Was just one Blighttown (Which I find really hard not because everything can poison you but because the framerate is horrible and it's really disorienting) and finally got another guy to join my game and me and him made our way to the bottom of the area when some guy invaded my game and backstabbed me. I rarely ever rage, but I did then.

Everybody saying that the game is never "unfair" can go eat a dick right now.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I do wish it came to PC so some of the asinine ideas could be modded, if these games had proper save systems they would probably be at the top of my RPG list but as they are now it stays in the "almost good" bucket.

The game auto-saves after you do anything, you're not going to lose anything because you forgot to save like in other games.

 

[Sozac]

This is a game I want to play and I want to enjoy it the way everyone else seems too. I get that feeling with a lot of the enemies except 2 v 1. That is when the game really breaks. I know if I can get one of them dead I will destroy the super version of the other. I might even just kill Smough first even though every guide is telling me that's a bad move. I practically know Orstein's movements though so I'd rather do that if I can.

I can appreciate your enthusiasm, but honestly 2 vs. 1 fights are part of the game experience. Its an unfair situation, true, but that's why you have to use every method in your arsenal to even the odds. Use elemental resins, summons players, use magic, smith better weapons and armor and grind levels. You have to do what you have to do, because the game isn't going to pull any punches either. Even if that means "exploits" and patently silly strategies like running through dangerous areas naked.

If you think you can take down Smough first, go for it. The problem is, super Ornstein is considerably tougher for a melee character than Super Smough. SS is basically like fighting any other large melee enemy, but SO moves so fast and constantly that you'll have a rough time keeping close to him. If you are playing a magic character, however, then taking down Smough first is the correct course of action.

I think you should start a new character and take the information you know now to heart. You'll find everything you struggled with earlier to be much easier, and you'll be able to approach areas with your newfound hindsight and be much more efficient, as well as coming out with a more rewarding experience.

There was no way I was starting a new character (I only have it til January), but I'm happy to say that through the help of jolly cooperation (I literally had to wait for 5 min before a summoning thing came up) I am past Smough and Ornstein. Since then there has been no cheap fight in the game. Only thing is I have way too many options. I am at the edge of the Tomb of Giants (Nito), the edge of Demon Ruins (witch person), and other than that I don't know which way to go. I don't think this game has a specific order, but there is no way each path is equal in difficulty, but I have cleared every area pretty thoroughly and am back to sorta enjoying the game.

 

[Sozac]

The game is way too hard without walkthroughs, it is unfair to the point of cruelty (not sure you could say that it cheats as such), often the mechanics are glitchy, the story is nonexistent and badly exposited.

It's wonderful despite all those things. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone that plays it why.

The first part of that sentence is wrong. Flat out wrong. It's not your opinion, it's a lie. My first playthrough I beat it without a walkthrough, without summoning, and with a tank. A TANK! And completed it at level 63 no less. Havel's gear - helm + Mask of the Child + Dark Knight Halberd+5. Only required two attempts on Gwyn.

Story: You are an undead who stumbles into the role of the Chosen Undead, and the story telling reflects that. I am tired of games where you're a random dude who just so happens to be the chosen hero of legend and everyone in the world but you seems to know what that means. I like the idea of feeling alone and the challenge of the unknown. The entire opening cut scene and escape from the Asylum scene explain everything you need to know. The downtrodden soldier explains what you need to do, and Kingseeker Frampt/Darkstalker whatever and Gwynevere tell you where/what/and how you need to do it later. The story is told through the dialogue of the characters as well.

Older games being simple and not relying on buggy cheapness for difficulty: Utter Bollocks. Castlevania, the end.

Anor Lando's Silver Knight Archers: Heavy Shield. It beats them every time.

That's all nice that you're so good at this game. I wish others were so lucky to beat this game with A TANK no less. Yet, you contradict yourself right away:
"You are an undead who stumbles into the role of the Chosen Undead, and the story telling reflects that. I am tired of games where you're a random dude who just so happens to be the chosen hero of legend and everyone in the world but you seems to know what that means."

So it is as if I am a random undead who just so happens to be the Chosen Undead of legend and everyone in the world, but you seems to know what that means. While it is clear that the Chosen Undead is destined to be the new king, there is no explination why it has to be an undead. Why doesn't Dark Sun Gwyndelin claim the thrown. He is one of Gwyn's children and doesn't seem to be as evil as Gwyn. I still don't even know why Gwyn is evil. From the opening cutscene, all I remember was a bunch of future bosses got together and killed most of the dragons. Also, I don't know why the dragons were so good. They seemed pretty evil, at least the ones I run into are. Just face it, the "story" is just a huge gaping plothole.

 

[Sozac]

I like the difficulty. It makes it so you are actually exploring as opposed to walking.

Traps actually matter, unlike other games too.

Oh and boss fights require changing your strategies.

idk about the traps in this game, it could be because of my heavy armor, but most of them did less than a sliver of health damage.

Also, I'm not saying most, but at least half of the boss fights I've done require a boring "wait" strategy in that you wait til they do that one move that takes to long to recover from and then you hit them.

My favorite three bosses that I can remember right now are(not in any sort of order):

Moonlight Butterfly-just a gorgeous setting and I loved the "I'll dance all day" mentality I got from its attacks and I killed it before the dancing got boring.

Crossbreed Priscilla- It seemed pretty easy when I took out 1/10 of her health with that first cheap shot, but the invisibility thing really threw me for one. Also, I fond that area to be a really nice view.

Capra Demon- I felt like I really should've lost the first time because it was a nice ambush. The dogs got me really hurt and I had to use like 3 flasks before the Capra stumbled over to me and I already knew I didn't want to fight this guys in a small space. So I ran up to the top of the stairs and hit him with some overall ineffective fire before I realized the drop and I was like "last two demons needed the diving attack, here we go again." So then I played cat and mouse, where the mouse jumps on the cats head with a halberd. It was just a nice sense of accomplishment after all the backstabbing death I got on the way to the demon.

 

[Mr Somewhere]

I loved Dark Souls, sadly the majority (seemingly) of the community surrounding the game are "tough" guys who play HARD games for MEN.

You shouldn't need to look up a walkthrough. Part of the appeal of Dark Souls is the breadth of the game, it's absolutely filled with secrets, it does have an old world charm to it. It's set up very much like a traditional Metroidvania, there's a great sense of mystery that would be ruined if you were to search walkthroughs. The game really teaches you to learn from your mistakes, observe, so being patience with the game is paramount.

Speaking only of the mechanics, the combat is engrossing, I've play few games with such tight mechanics, there's visceral feel to it, every little movement counts. Every victory feels like you've earned it.

But what I liked most about the game was the sense of atmosphere. It throws you into a seamless world that feels alive. The game doesn't hand you anything, even the events of the plot are buried. It's a grim experience that few games can replicate. There's a genuine sense of ambience, it really is the kind of game that engulfs the player. Though the press and such put an emphasis on the difficulty, there's much more to it, it's a shame really.

The game is an experience, albeit an unrelenting one.

Edit: Also, there's a lot of mention that the "story" or plot is weak. I'd have to disagree, you just need to look in certain places to learn more. It's actually rather clever in places.

Do you mind if I quote you? I am sure you don't.

OT: Anyway...


THIS!

Of course I don't mind, frankly I'm flattered you liked the post so much.

 

[hazabaza1]

The gameplay is just really fun. All the weapons feel different and unique, and the boss battles are just fantastic. Too bad about the "build a specific character or die PvP"

 

[Aggieknight]

Dark Souls is my game of the year, so I'm a bit biased. Why do I feel this way:
1. The game is tense.
2. Unique interesting story that isn't spoon fed to you with an outstanding atmosphere.
3. Amazing combat system that is very flexible.
4. Significant rewards for exploration.
5. Almost completely non-linear.

There are definitely downsides to the game...
1. Steep learning curve. Really steep.
2. Your choices are forever, so the the only way to "unmake" them is to start over. I had to start over twice after "learning" before it really started clicking.
3. Sometimes glitchy camera/targeting limits the effectiveness of spells.

I'm pretty sure the reason it is loved is because it is hard without being unfair. Unless your REALLY thick the game will not be stupid towards you.

I mean, sure it fires some cheap shots your way numerous times, but after the first scenario you should have learned your lesson.

This x10000. The game is tough, but built in a such a way that "winning" is its own reward. O&S must have killed me 50 times, and when I finally took them out (on my own), I was jumping up and down screaming. Ask my wife...I woke her up in the middle of the night.

 

[Frostwhisper21]

The fact that it actually requires effort appeals to me. It's an incredibly fair game, regardless of how you feel. I have died maybe once due to the game's camera, but otherwise it's my own fault i've died.

The online aspect, too, made this game amazing as well (no matter how limited it seems).

I suppose after playing for years Call of Duty, WoW Cataclysm, Mass Effect 2, Dragon age 2, LA Noire, and other such AAA games you get annoyed at the hand-holding.

 

[Burst6]

So it is as if I am a random undead who just so happens to be the Chosen Undead of legend and everyone in the world, but you seems to know what that means. While it is clear that the Chosen Undead is destined to be the new king, there is no explination why it has to be an undead. Why doesn't Dark Sun Gwyndelin claim the thrown. He is one of Gwyn's children and doesn't seem to be as evil as Gwyn. I still don't even know why Gwyn is evil. From the opening cutscene, all I remember was a bunch of future bosses got together and killed most of the dragons. Also, I don't know why the dragons were so good. They seemed pretty evil, at least the ones I run into are. Just face it, the "story" is just a huge gaping plothole.

Big spoilers ahead

Spoiler

You aren't actually the chosen undead. You're actually the Dark Lord.

A few centuries before the game started, the age of fire was going away. Humans, who are supposed to come with the age of darkness, started appearing. This scared the shit out of Gwyn, so he ordered his children to control the humans. He then went off, only taking his clothes, his sword, and a couple hundred of his knights. He used himself as fuel to relight the kiln, and keep the age of fire going for a while.

He also planned to make the dark lord, who's supposed to bring on the age of darkness, sacrifice him/herself to prevent the age of darkness by relighting the kiln again when it died out. He convinced kingseeker frampt to trick you.

At the end if you relight the kiln you get burned as fuel. If you just walk away, you claim your right as dark lord.

 

[Sovvolf]

Though I haven't played much of it, so far I've enjoyed it and was the main game I was playing before my little brother nicked the HDMI cable for the 360 and now I can't use it until he fetches it back. One thing I'm hating though is the community, to quote a fellow on the front page.

I loved Dark Souls, sadly the majority (seemingly) of the community surrounding the game are "tough" guys who play HARD games for MEN.

Yeah, these (These not being Mr Somewhere... Want to clear that one up as it does seem I'm insulting you) pretentious dicks seem to fill the community. I'm sorry, I might be a little harsh there but when I go watch a review of the game or read about it, the place is filled with comments on "The game isn't hard, I found it almost too easy, you're all just pussified by modern games holding your hands all the time blah, blah... often going on for a few paragraphs and jumping through more logic holes than this tired Brit can find metaphor for" I just read them and constantly shaking my head and thinking to myself "Shut up you dick, I grew up on the SNES, I know what hard and unforgiving is... I'd rather we not go back to that time thanks".

That said, no gaming community is perfect so probably can't complain much. Maybe I've just came across the bad eggs in my travels, the majority here don't seem to be like that.

As for the game itself, I've just finished the bell tower bit and killed the demon thing in that small area where the dogs spawn, can't remember the name of it (Edit: The Capra Demon, Thanks Sozac. SO not too far into it but so far enjoyed it and I hope to play more when I can get the 360 back.

Yeah, the game is hard, I'm not going to beat around the bush on that one. Its difficult. However what I will grant this game is that its one of the few games that have true difficulty. What I mean by that is, its not artificial difficulty, its not difficult to the point that you can see the computer is blatantly cheating. A lot of games when you put them at their hardest, the computer just simply cheats, you get next to no health and they take a year to go down, can do things they shouldn't, the odds are so stacked against you, its almost unplayable.

Here, no its hard, but (as so many people have cited to the point that I'll sound like a parrot) it really is fair about it. When you die, its not cause the computer screwed you or the controls were fliniky, no its more often than not your own fault. You did something wrong, even if its something tiny or just a minor mistake, this game doesn't fuck around, its not very forgiving in the combat, screwing up can result in you being sent back to the campfire soulless.

The big exception to this is the camera and sometimes, it can be a little messy and it can result in you falling off of a high platform. However, for the most part its not too much of an hassle.

The combat is fun, its precise, its meaty, its got flow and again its consistent and fair. Admittedly there can be a little trouble with the lock on feature but mostly its not too bad.

I will admit to this though, the game is pretty poor when it comes to giving you a sense of direction. I know some have lampshaded this as them wanting to have you explore and other stuff but honestly I just think its bad game design. I'm not after hand holding but an hint on where I'm supposed to be going would be nice so I don't end up wasting my time going where I shouldn't only for me to get killed. After ringing the first bell and getting back to the starting area, I had no idea where to go from there so I went to the Catacombs and just ended up dying a lot. Wasn't until a while after that where I ended up where I am now and even so, I'm still not sure if I'm supposed to be here.

The game doesn't really lend itself well to freeroaming, I can admire the game for giving us a sense of freedom but I think I'd rather it meet us halfway.

Also, I haven't grasped the story yet, apparently its really subtle and were supposed to find it ourselfs... Which is a good take on it however it would be nice to have a little context to your actions, so far all I know is that I'm a dude that's escaped from an undead prison and I should ring some bells and kill some gargoyles. Think they went a little too extreme in one direction here and again some middle ground would be nice, give us the basics and let us delve deeper into this world if we like.

Then again, I'm not far into it and maybe it opens up later, I don't know.

Ho, what I am liking is the looting, the leveling system and the creature design, though I'll save that for another time as I'm sure I've already talked the heads off here and this tired Brit isn't getting any more awake .

 

[Sozac]

On the topic of handholding, and this is sort of OT, I'm going to compare the Dead Rising series. Dead Rising 1 and 2 are games I really like. They don't hold my hand either and I like them a lot more than Dark Souls and they have only one difficulty level too. These games aren't as pretty, but they are funnier. Dark Souls has more options for "classes", but it also has more RPG qualities. Dead rising has leveling, exp, and 2 has crafting, but that's about it. They have some similarities, but you really can't compare them in those ways. The Point Is, when it comes to difficulty the Dead Risings has a wider range of people that played because it has the potential to be easy. Both games can be a breeze if you just do the main story missions and kill zombies in the meantime. The best endings isn't even dependent on how many psychopaths you killed or how many survivors you rescued. Its about being in the right places at the right times. That being said it has a potential to be very hard and in a way that I have never raged even though I or my survivors died a lot. This is because a perfect run of the game requires precise timing, multitasking, and escorting. Even though escort missions are put with QTEs and unskippable cutscenes, etc. as things a game should never have, I really think they fit in the Dead Risings. They were improved a bit in Dead Rising 2, but I think escorting is a challenge that isn't technically unfair either. While it may not be required, I do like this challenge and I like it being optional that way there is no wrong way to do it because you're doing it. I think the Jimquisition says this way better than I do, but to put it simply, I like it more when I can make difficulty for myself without any set difficulties and games that are way too easy and way too hard (I'm talking of only certain parts in Dark Souls, its usual difficulty is normally pretty moderate) just get in the way of that.


I have to say, take away 4-5 annoying bits from Dark Souls (so far) and I would have to say it is easier than both Dead Risings. This has a little bit to do with the combat being a bit smoother in DS, but in that game most players are really selfish. I'm not talking about griefers either. I'm talking about the character you are roleplaying. The one who takes on Dark Sun Gwyndelin (not much of a backstory, but I sort of had the feeling he was good) for the souls, who kills Crossbreed Priscilla for souls, kills anyone who is not important to the story or just for curiosities sake (or are all those things just me). In cannon, a lot of characters act like dicks. The way this relates to difficulty is that its a lot easier in Dark Souls to kill optional bosses (at most 6-7 deaths til you figure out the pattern since they are never as tough as story ones, for ex. S&O) and grind for exp. In Dead Rising the survivor missions are more like side missions and while some of the earlier ones are easier, albeit not as much PP, they are the best way of getting PP. In a perfect run a lot of these stack up and it becomes the definition of tense because at the same time you have to be on deadlines for optional boss fights, and I'm not contradicting myself because these guys are dangerous and almost all of them are inherently bad or are in need of being put out of their respective miseries, but most importantly a lot of them have captive survivors. Once again, please no commenters should come on to say "Well, I didn't kill Soandso. Therefore, you are wrong." unless you care to give a good reason.

Also, as an endnote I think the reason for triple A games doing a lot of handholding is because they market to a broader audience. They want as many people to play there game as possible. This isn't necessarily bad because not everyone can grasp controls and tactics at the same rate and this leads to a lot of frustration. Like a lot of people in this thread have said Dark Souls "isn't for everyone" where a lot of Triple A games are trying to be for everyone.

P.S. Just saying there was a reason for me liking the escort missions in the Dead Risings and that it wasn't just me lying saying I liked them, but I don't want to expand so to paraphrase: They are survivors and not trained military, heightens difficulty while fulfilling my expectations of how an actual survivor group might function (whether intentional or not), makes me feel like I'm actually protecting people.

Edit:Gosh, I wrote more than I thought I would when I started XD

 

[Sozac]

So it is as if I am a random undead who just so happens to be the Chosen Undead of legend and everyone in the world, but you seems to know what that means. While it is clear that the Chosen Undead is destined to be the new king, there is no explination why it has to be an undead. Why doesn't Dark Sun Gwyndelin claim the thrown. He is one of Gwyn's children and doesn't seem to be as evil as Gwyn. I still don't even know why Gwyn is evil. From the opening cutscene, all I remember was a bunch of future bosses got together and killed most of the dragons. Also, I don't know why the dragons were so good. They seemed pretty evil, at least the ones I run into are. Just face it, the "story" is just a huge gaping plothole.

Big spoilers ahead

Spoiler

You aren't actually the chosen undead. You're actually the Dark Lord.

A few centuries before the game started, the age of fire was going away. Humans, who are supposed to come with the age of darkness, started appearing. This scared the shit out of Gwyn, so he ordered his children to control the humans. He then went off, only taking his clothes, his sword, and a couple hundred of his knights. He used himself as fuel to relight the kiln, and keep the age of fire going for a while.

He also planned to make the dark lord, who's supposed to bring on the age of darkness, sacrifice him/herself to prevent the age of darkness by relighting the kiln again when it died out. He convinced kingseeker frampt to trick you.

At the end if you relight the kiln you get burned as fuel. If you just walk away, you claim your right as dark lord.

I have to say, that's actually pretty cool and all the dickish things some characters do make sense, but does that mean your character never actually wanted to relight the kiln. He never shows motivations. I mean I sort of want to relight the kiln even if I knew my guy would die, just for the self-sacrifice of a hero. However, i don't know which is worse and for whom it is worse for, when it comes to the dark times or the age of fire.

[/spoiler]