What place does melee really have in shooters?

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Assassin Xaero

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Sup I said:
But why do they so over-powered? Well, I have thought up of 3 answers for this question.
1. Always at the ready, knives don't have to be equiped. Meaning, if you walk around a corner, knife, dead. No skill involved, you press one button for a one shot kill. The other person can do nothing but knife first or die.
2. One shot kill. Yeah, they usually do more then a bullet from an ak-47.
3. The lounge+lock on. You see him. He's 4 meters away. VOOM. Dead. Easy as that.
None of these should be like that. Why have shotgun when you can have this?
That is about all I read, and especially with #1 I have to ask, have you ever played any FPS game besides MW2? Not every game is like this... Most games a melee is a one hit kill because it is a hell of a lot harder to get close to someone than it is to shoot them. Unless, well, you are on consoles where everything has some short of aim assist and people still can't aim for shit...
 

Blueruler182

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Mrhappyface 2 said:
Blueruler182 said:
Does anyone actually know how quickly you can pull out a knife? Because I can do it pretty damn fast, and that's without training. Having to equip it is moronic, why would you run around with the knife out if you can whip it out in a second and have a miniature cannon attached to your arm.

And, fun fact, Kevlar is little defense against knives. Kevlar stops force, not piercing. It wont stop a knife or an arrow. So a knife being a one shot kill where a bullet isn't actually does make sense.

I personally don't mind melee in shooters. And I don't get why everyone's so down on them. The entire point of a shooter is to not get close. To shoot them. So if you are dumb enough to get close and don't have a shotgun I feel it's perfectly fine that you get shanked.
To tell you the truth though, punching through Kevlar isn't very easy. Think thick cardboard and you have a box cutter. It can slice through pretty well, put it will slow it down A LOT.
Oh, I'd imagine. But putting a soldier's strength and one's body weight into the lunge and you can slam a box cutter through cardboard.

You're gonna wind up being a soldier and I'm gonna sound like a jackass, but I still find the knife a very viable one-hit-kill for FPS's.
 

ssssuuuullll

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As it stands a melee and lunge is vital to manage cqc. Take blacklight tango down, the melee has no lunge and qcq is hell
 

Xanadu84

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I have never seen a situation where Melee is overpowered, because if you can get that close to someone and survive, you have pretty much won, and have earned it. Playing on computer might have something to do with it, I will grant. But in the vast majority of bad ass melee kills, it is just as feasible to just blast them with a shotgun, with the added bonus of having distance.
 

Shpongled

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Blueruler182 said:
Does anyone actually know how quickly you can pull out a knife? Because I can do it pretty damn fast, and that's without training. Having to equip it is moronic, why would you run around with the knife out if you can whip it out in a second and have a miniature cannon attached to your arm.

And, fun fact, Kevlar is little defense against knives. Kevlar stops force, not piercing. It wont stop a knife or an arrow. So a knife being a one shot kill where a bullet isn't actually does make sense.

I personally don't mind melee in shooters. And I don't get why everyone's so down on them. The entire point of a shooter is to not get close. To shoot them. So if you are dumb enough to get close and don't have a shotgun I feel it's perfectly fine that you get shanked.
Standard issue military combat vests are stab proof.

Just sayin'
 

Burningsok

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the reason why melee is usually a one shot kill is because of balance in combat. It's usually a little difficult to get close to an opponent with a melee weapon. So when you do get close you get rewarded with a chance to get a one shot kill on the opposing player. With shooting, you can kill someone at any distance, so it should be much easier for you to get a kill.
 

Blueruler182

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Shpongled said:
Blueruler182 said:
Does anyone actually know how quickly you can pull out a knife? Because I can do it pretty damn fast, and that's without training. Having to equip it is moronic, why would you run around with the knife out if you can whip it out in a second and have a miniature cannon attached to your arm.

And, fun fact, Kevlar is little defense against knives. Kevlar stops force, not piercing. It wont stop a knife or an arrow. So a knife being a one shot kill where a bullet isn't actually does make sense.

I personally don't mind melee in shooters. And I don't get why everyone's so down on them. The entire point of a shooter is to not get close. To shoot them. So if you are dumb enough to get close and don't have a shotgun I feel it's perfectly fine that you get shanked.
Standard issue military combat vests are stab proof.

Just sayin'
Now that's something I'll have to test to believe...

Okay, hole in my logic, but still. I have no issue with melee and melee weapons in games. Who's to say you didn't stab him in the throat? Or eye? Or any squishy part of the face?
 

Reep

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ProfessorLayton said:
Look at Bad Company 2, where it takes a second to ready your knife so it isn't automatic.
The knife may not be automatic, but it still has a huge lunge and lock on the target, there's a video of a guy flying up a watch tower to knife a guy on the top, and i've had an experience where i lunged for a knife, he ran behind me and it turned me around to get him.
I think the lunge compensates for the delay in the knife attack speed.

I reckon Reach will get the melee right, not a one shot kill in the front, but it is in the back for a very good reason (assassinations).
 

bushwhacker2k

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Yeah, it makes sense in some situations, like chucking a knife if you are reloading, though that isn't melee but I digress.

Attacking from stealth or while the enemy is reloading I suppose...

But yeah overall if you're on a war-ground with an ak47 melee isn't going to have much place...
 

Skorpyo

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Melee worked for me in F.E.A.R., mostly because you took loads of damage from a single bullet and the enemies would fight back quickly if you ran up on them.

In Halo 1 and Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, it just seemed like cheating.
 

L-J-F

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Although not realistic, 99% of people playing games absolutely CANNOT use realism to argue with, you're playing a game where it usually takes 10 or more shots to kill someone, where you can fire an RPG inside a house without any ill side effects and where your only goal is to kill the enemy without any regard for your own life. So no, melee isn't realistic, but neither are 99% of games these days - most of which don't even come close, as much as I love bad company 2 - so just deal with it, melee is fun.
 

Rednog

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Equip a melee weapon to use it, so no bs tap e for knife and instantly shank someone? Sure.
2-3 hit for a melee weapon, no thanks. Why? Because almost no one would use it unless there was some advantage of using it. Think back to the day of counterstrike, almost no one used a knife because you'd be much faster at reloading or just pulling out your pistol and when you start to go into the whole oh you need several hits to down a guy you have to realize how huge of a target a person in melee range is, 1 bullet to the skull and that guy is dead.
Seriously play around for a long time in a game like MW2 as a knifer and you'll soon realize that if it took more than 1 hit to down people you'd be absolutely boned. Hell there are very few occasions when I can get a kill without taking any damage at all.
 

imgunagitusucka

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Mrhappyface 2 said:
imgunagitusucka said:
Halo:Reach has the new animated assasination thing going on, purely for humiliation purposes mind you as a regular back smack is still an instakill. This leaves the attacker vunerable for a second or two, and can even be interrupted by the victims team mates, who can even save his life. So what if ALL melee attacks had this animation technique, showing the attacker disarm his enemy first, jason bourne style, before killing him with....bare hands, knife, environment....but also leaving himself open to attack from others? Much more "realistic" in the sense that having a gun doesn't mean that your indestuctable, but that charging in with a knife/punch is also not a guarantee of victory either. The animation could even trigger an offense/defense sequence between the combatants, via a quicktime, or rock paper scissors type interface, meaning melees will become a specialist tactic that must be practised to be effective.
So it's like Gears of War but you're not invulnerable between melee animations?
Exactly, the fact that your untouchable while in the melee animation is ridiculous.
 

Diablo27

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Well you try wasting half a clip on something so close you could count the hairs on his face and tell me you don't feel dumb.
 

Therumancer

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Well, I will say that I think the term "shooter" has become sort of obselete and is simply being used due to the amount of time it's been in circulation. It would be more accurate to label these games "combat simulators".

That said, close quarters combat is a big deal especially when you see engagements at that range regularly. It depends on the exact circumstances, in a lot of cases if you have the drop on someone and they have a gun, even a shotgun, it's relatively easy to force that weapon out of line and stab them. It comes down to who is reacting to who as much as anything.

I do not consider the dominance of melee weapons in such circumstances to be that big a deal, although I don't play this genere too often. Generally speaking if you keep dying to things like this, you should probably avoid letting people get that close.

Generally speaking, the ideal evolution of the system would be to put more effort into close quarters combat systems and how hand to hand range combat works. Of course this would both make the game more complicated, which would probably be an anathema to those who play these games for their simplicity, and would of course probably be part of a package focusing more on realism in terms of recoil and actual firearms usage. Looking at games like "S.T.A.L.K.E.R." (which I enjoy quite a bit) a lot of the casual "I can't deal with anything statistical or complex" shooter fans were turned off due to the fact that shooting just wasn't as easy as it was in other "FPS" type games. Trying to shoot a moving target at a hundred yards with an AK-47 or the equivilent not exactly being a joy, where the equivilent is comparitively easier in say "Modern Warfare 2" where for all pretensions of realism they modified things so even a 10 year old could feel like an elite member of the special forces.

With games set in the far future things become touchier, your using things that don't exist (and probably never will) like powered armor and battle suits. People aren't going to lug around these shield generators and strap several hundred pounds of mechanized metal to their body if they aren't effective. If firearms were unusually effective against such armor then nobody would use it and we'd see an evolution like we did when firearms first hit the battlefield and everyone put their plate mail away and just carried guns.

A number of science fiction series have addressed guns being effective and used, while melee can be more so (with people charging through fire to engage in hand to hand). Things like there is only so much punch a bullet is going to pack, even coming down an electromagnetic rail, yet someone using a melee weapon perhaps with a seperate power source, backed by a ton of dedicate servo motors is going to do a lot more to get through a metal plate. Sort of like how (for real) you can bounce bullets off say the hood of a car, but then take a decently thick blade and cut a slash right through it. Not to mention that it's easier to hit something like a joint with a melee weapon especially if the other guy doesn't have one and your as fast as he is, than to do it with a gun at a distance (though by no means is it ever going to be simple).

The point CAN be argued, but if you want combat to flow well, melee is something that shouldn't be overlooked, and chances are if someone with an appropriate melee weapon ready is attacking you (even with a shotgun) before you can react, you should be dead. Realisitcally I guess a guy would say grab the barrel and push it away as he attacks, but there are limits on animations and how well they flow even in PVP.

As one final point, I haven't played the new Transformers game (budget bin material for me) but I'll point out that in that setting melee SHOULD be really powerful because that's how a lot of key battles are resolved. Sure the robots carry guns, but you don't see many of them getting blown to pieces with a couple of shots. On the other hand in the comics and such they do tend to rip each other apart when it comes to swords and blades (probably using the same logic as with the armor above). This is one bit Michael Bay more or less got right.

As a final note, I will say that I think that if "shooters" ever evolve into a "smarter" gaming genere, games are probably going to be built from melee on up. I look at games like "Zeno Clash" as an example of what first person action based melee can be like. The trick is going to be to balance something like that with shooter mechanics as well. If someone comes around the corner in front of you, but still surprises you, carrying a knife, it will turn into a melee battle you might recover from (think Jason Bourne or whatever). Right now though, the "one button kill" is a fair way of doing something if he presses first, not to mention there should be some payoff to getting into position to do that. I mean the guy probaly isn't moving any faster than you are, and if he's killing you with knives that means you need to be more careful.
 

Diablo27

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imgunagitusucka said:
So what if ALL melee attacks had this animation technique, showing the attacker disarm his enemy first, jason bourne style, before killing him with....bare hands, knife, environment....but also leaving himself open to attack from others? Much more "realistic" in the sense that having a gun doesn't mean that your indestuctable, but that charging in with a knife/punch is also not a guarantee of victory either. The animation could even trigger an offense/defense sequence between the combatants, via a quicktime, or rock paper scissors type interface, meaning melees will become a specialist tactic that must be practised to be effective.
That...
Would...
Be...
Awesome...
 

mb16

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play any realistic game (arma/flash point )and you wont really get within 30m of anyone unless its an urban area. even then its just 1/2 shots and they go down.
 

Chal

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Not sure how it is in Bad Company, but in the other Battlefields (and a myriad of other FPS games out there I haven't tried), one must switch to a knife and strike instead of instantly activating it. In 1942, it took multiple hits as well. I like it that way, where it is a weak weapon used for:
A) Situations where you're out of ammo and therefore boned but a get a chance to do some damage anyway
B) Humiliation kills
C) Knife duels. Surprisingly common among even strangers to not swap out weapons/shoot at two people already engaged in such a fight. Good clean fun for just screwing around in general.

I have to admit that when knives insta-kill, being a ninja running through raging battles with fully automatic weapons blazing, just to stab faces, gives me a bit of a rush, but it doesn't scream balance.