What was wrong with Dragon Age 2, exactly?

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Russian_Assassin

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The story and the world. I hated the time skips that occurred every 2 hours and the world seemed so fucking tiny. The fact that all the dungeons were copy pasted versions of 3-5 caves, paths etc did not help it.

What happened to it? It had such great potential but Bioware had to go and commit the worst sins in gaming design!
 

Phoenix Arrow

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I prefered Dragon Age 2 to Origins. The combat system was much more fluid, being a ranger (which is my prefered class) wasn't a waste of time, the cast was more interesting and varied, the story wasn't just "there will be war, find people" and the dialogue between the characters while you were running around was just brilliant.

There were only really two main problems with the game, but they were pretty big.
One was that the world felt really small. The idea of just having one hub wasn't the problem, I actually liked that you got to know everyone and became the towns champion, but there was really nothing else. Take the expedition to the deep roads. In the first game, that's quite long thing. In this, it took what? 15 minutes? After you spend so long preparing for it, it felt like a massive cop out.

Apart from that, there wasn't really any variation in the zones outside of town. There was a forest, a seaside and then some caves and that's where all the quests took place. The level design seemed pretty lazy to me.

But the actual game part of the game was really good, as was the story. It was just lacking that feeling you get in some RPGs where there's a world to explore.

Princess Rose said:
Oh, and not making the item sets for Hawke ugly would have been nice too. **sigh**
What are you talking about? My Hawke was stylin'.
 

ipop@you

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Mostly that it wasn't Dragon Age: Origins, it was a good game despite the points the OP mentioned but there were so many things that were similar to Origins but not quite as good (companions, map etc.) and there was the fact there was more diversity and lore in Orgins with the ability to be one of 3 races and the visiting various settlements of each race.
 

Paragon Fury

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Jan 23, 2009
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Shitty Story

Shitty Way of Telling the Story

Shitty Characters

Totally ruining some characters from the first game (Anders, Isabella)

Shitty Recycled Environments

Shitty Dumbed-Down Yet Still More Frustrating Combat

Shitty PC Character Customization

Graphics somehow worse than the original

Shitty Music

Honestly.....every part of what makes a "good" game was done terribly in DA2. Its pretty obvious from Bioware's massive denial issues that the reviewers were paid off in order for DA2 to get any more than a 6.
 

Zetatrain

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While I liked the game (completed like 4 or 5 playthroughs)the story had some glaring flaws.

The problem is not really the story as a whole but rather the pay off (act 3). IMO both Acts 1 and 2 were done very well. Act 1 basically got the ball rolling on both the templar vs mage plot as well as the Qunari subplot. Act 2 mainly focused on the the Qunari subplot as it sets the stage for Act 3. Now the problem with Act 3 is that it was rushed and there really should have been four acts instead of three. In Act 2 we saw the climax of the Quanri subplot and then once act 3 begins the mages and templars are already on the verge of war. So simply put, Act 3 should have a been about how the mages and templars reached the brink of war and act 4 should have been basically what we saw in the original Act 3.

Like I said before Act 3 was rushed and it really shows. There are only two main quests the final part of the act and there is very little difference between siding with either faction and the ending/epilogue really left something to be desired.

personally I'd give the game a 7.5/10
 

the27thvoice

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I had no problem with it until the 2nd playthrough. Dialogues were fine, the combat system was better (this time around mages were playable), the story was engaging (hell, I genuinely felt sorry for Hawke seeing family and companions slowly disappearing), it was great. Then I went through again and noticed that none of my actions really made an impact. I was the scapegoat of both sides, never really the one in control. Bad things didn't happen because I failed, they happened because they were scripted and I was simply led to believe I was to blame.

Examples:
Sibling will be gone by act 2 no matter what.
Isabella will split no matter what (can get her back, but she does split)
Viscount dies no matter what
You fight both leaders in act 3 no matter what
Mother dies no matter what
Keeper dies in the cave whatever you do
Anders blows up the church, regardless

All in all, it's just not what I expect from Bioware, the differing allegiances are just too similar. Though it was interesting to note Orsino's involvement in Mother's death, which you only learn for sure by siding with templars and which completely undermines him as the good guy.
 

Jandau

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Dec 19, 2008
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1. WEAK STORY! Seriously, everything else I'm about to list pales in comparison to this. The idea was to show how a place and people grow with time, but the end result just feels weak and disjointed. The end villain was a minor character, while the "apparent" villain (The Arishok) was done away with abruptly. Overall, the plot is badly paced, doesn't really go or end anywhere and just feels hollow.

2. Weak characters. Mass Effect 2 suffered from a somewhat weak main plot (still better than DA2, though), but the party members were interesting and most of the midgame revolved around them (recruitment and loyalty missions). DA2 just fails here. Varric aside (he was awesome), most others were just weak and bland. The emo elf, the drunken dwarf, gay apostate, slutty piratess... all boring. The irony was that I found Aveline, the designated "normal" person to be the most interesting (aside from Varric) since the game did a good job of showing how her relationship with Hawke evolved from their time as refugees onward and overall managed to portray her as an actual person. The only other memorable character, The Arishok, is given minimal screen time and is pushed aside.

3. Recycled areas. You pretty much had 10ish "dungeon" areas (includes warehouses and such) that are reused over and over and over again. A passage might be blocked in one version and another in the other version, but it's still the same place. When ancient crypts, hillside caves and secret tunnels look EXACTLY ALIKE, it starts to grate on you. And it's not just the same textures or something like that. IT'S THE EXACT SAME AREA. Add to this that since it all takes place in one city, even that's always the same and it starts to show that Bioware really didn't feel like doing level design here. They had a chance to show how specific areas change with the passage of time, but they fail even there. Everything stays the same. Each of the game's timeskips simply shuffles a few new NPCs in, and often not even that. It's lazy design through and through.

4. Wave based combat (Wombat?). Fights have a nasty tendancy to teleport in more enemies in waves. All the time. Every sizeable fight takes place in a large circular area and halfway through the fight a bunch of guys jump in out of nowhere. This happens constantly and just feels like they didn't want to bother with designing encounters so they just compensated by tossing more dudes at you. This would be lazy design in an action game, but in an RPG with dreams of being a tactics game, it's inexcuseable.

All in all, the game felt rushed, like it was done by Bioware's B-list people on a reduced budget, to cash in on the brand. Origins was a great game. It did a lot of things right and even if it was a bit formulaic, it still played with the standard tropes sufficiently to stay interesting. DA2 is just a parade of mediocrity. And that's the whole problem - it's not terrible, it's just "meh". And I don't want "meh" from what used to be the best WRPG developer out there...
 

judgementbringer

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I actually really liked the game, for the most part. I liked the characters and how they interacted with each other and I liked the new combat system.
But my major beef with the game is that it is way too damn short. I mean it takes me longer to beat a single section in the first Dragon Age then it does for me to beat Dragon Age 2 in its entirety.
That and the "dungeons" were extremely repetitive. The same basic layouts were used over and over again.
 

Ben Jackson

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weker said:
the main thing that was wrong with Dragon age 2 was the number afterwards, they made it a different game and people were not happy to see that.
Agreed. The game was differentt, if it's a sequel, everyone wants the same, the game itself is really good.

Offtopic: Weker, I'm assuming you like Lonely Island (Jack Sparrow) 'cos of your avatar?
 

bobfish92

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Feb 2, 2011
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The problem, beyond those stated by the OP, to me seemed to be it changed itself too much. I see Mass Effect as the video game version of a choose your own adventure book, and Dragon Age as essentially writing your own story with meerly the confines of the setting. Both are valid and entertaining, but we already have Mass Effect to be our CYOA, and they shouldn't have essenitally turned Dragon Age 2 into another CYOA rather than "from scratch" writing. If you want a story focused on a set path and person, go with ME. If you want a far more open-ended story experience which may lack in some depth as a trade off, go with DA. This, to me, was the formula they broke.
 

Yopaz

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The problem with Dragon age 2: It wasn't Dragon Age Origins.
The problem with Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2: It is Modern Warfare.

Fans are petty and are likely to hate on change if they're too drastic and likely to hate on change if they don't exist. I've seen brilliant games get bad reviews from fans because they didn't do what the original did.

However they could have bothered to make more than 1 dungeon covered in different skins.
 

The Dutchess

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I still enjoyed DA2 but I feel like it lost a lot of it's DA:O feel in the shift in graphics and the shrinking of the world. Basically I wanted more, more companion chatting, more story, more areas, more everything. But I don't think I'll ever be satisfied, I'll always want more Dragon Age!
 

LarenzoAOG

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Because everyone compared it to another game that they thought was better, therefore faulting it for not being the exact same game, that's pretty much it, people liked DA:O so when DA2 wasn't the same thing they didn't like it, I doubt highly that if they had called it "Time Period of the Flying Fire-Breathing Serpents" and severed all ties to the Dragon Age mythos there probably wouldn't have been as much flak, sure the silly wave combat that had thugs jumping into combat off of rooves would still be pretty stupid, as would the repetitive enviroments, but really judged on its own merits DA2 isn't the pile of shit everyone makes it out to be.
 

weker

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Ben Jackson said:
weker said:
the main thing that was wrong with Dragon age 2 was the number afterwards, they made it a different game and people were not happy to see that.
Agreed. The game was differentt, if it's a sequel, everyone wants the same, the game itself is really good.

Offtopic: Weker, I'm assuming you like Lonely Island (Jack Sparrow) 'cos of your avatar?
That is correct, I originally had a picture of a half nude man covered by a keytar from the song synthesizer, but it wasn't that good looking and no one recognized it.
 

The Human Torch

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The worst thing was all the threads that kept popping up, about how bad Dragon Age 2 was, even when the game has already been out for almost 6 months...ow wait, I guess that this thread qualifies.

Go use the search bar, please. There are TONS of threads about DA2. :)
 

The Abhorrent

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Many have noted upon the key issues already, but I would say the main issue with DA2 is that it was a disappointment. Still a solid and enjoyable game, but rather lacklustre compared to Bioware's other games (even just the recent ones). It made quite a few experimental changes as well, which led to some criticism...

... which eventually spawned the "Bash DA2!" bandwagon.

That fiasco can only be described as a mob mentality, which isn't exactly known for bright ideas. Unfortunately, it would seem that some of the effects still hold sway over many; the focus on the negative aspects of the game prevents them from seeing that the game still has some good points.


As for some of the reasons why DA2 got a less-than-favourable reception:

Excessively recycled environments
Reusing actual locations after time has lapsed is one thing, but there's no excuse for how much it happened in DA2.

Overuse of wave mechanics in encounter design
The combat in DA2 is better than DA:O, the encounter design however? Well, the unique fights are better than anything in DA:O (the Ancient Rock Wraith, for example); but the general encounters are rife with problems. Additional waves of enemies can be used well, but DA2's implementation is done poorly and done far too often.

The characters are less likable
Now, this isn't to say they're worse; just less likable. Or if you prefer, less idealized & archetypical. One of the potential issues of creating characters with more depth is that people will start to dislike them due to their flaws rather than sympathize with them. An emotional equivalent of the "Uncanny Valley", or something along those lines.

The story's execution is a complete mess
The three acts of the game are very disconnected, dealing with three very different conflicts. The first act in particular is practically aimless, and the other two just don't flow well. While many of the over-arcing concepts and smaller events are done well, the whole of the game's story needed to be planned out better. Also, the game seldom demonstrates that time has tangibly passed between each act of the game; that was a lot of wasted potential right there.

The lack of interaction with party members
One of the nice things about DA:O and both games in the ME series (I haven't played any older Bioware games to know if it's a persistent trend) is that you can talk to your party members at any time; or at least any time you're in the "hub" location, be it the "Camp" in DA:O and the Normandy in ME1/2. In DA2, you're restricted to talking to your party members at only specific points... yeah, there goes a lot of the interesting dialogue trees right there.

Players feel they don't have a strong effect on the story
Now, is this really a bad thing? To tell the truth, it isn't... but don't be surprised with many people don't respond well to feeling either vulnerable or ineffective. Removing the "escapist" aspect of a medium where just about every protagonist is an "escapist character" (read: borderline Mary Sue) tends to a very risky move. The same can be said for other media (films, books, and so on), but it's an especially dangerous prospect for games; players want to be nigh-omnipotent, games are treated as a power fantasy; DA2 subverts this by having a plot where there is no possibility for a comprimise, due to all sides of the conflict being both right... and wrong.

People hopped on the bandwagon
Yes, it's worth re-iterating.

---

Now, DA2 does several things right. The combat is probably the biggest improvement, with more balanced classes and the addition of cross-class combos. The game also runs a LOT better than DA:O, even though the combat is much faster paced. Gifts now how dialogue specific to them. The story of the game is far from the generic tale that DA:O was (though the earlier game did have a much better execution of that story), and DA2 does a good job of showing the moral ambiguity of the setting. The game also isn't the sort of game many were looking for (DA:O 2), which probably didn't go over well when combined with the definite flaws of the game.

The main issue, again, is the poor execution. If DA2 was planned out better and had more time to refine itself, the only reasonable argument would be that the game wasn't the type of game they were looking for.
 

Zing

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Oct 22, 2009
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It was forgettable, stupid, boring, had poor graphics, unimaginative and uninteresting characters and plot lines, no overarching story-line whatsoever, you just meander around doing various uninteresting quests in the same damn place you just saw an hour ago while waves of annoying enemies come at you.

And worst of all, they managed to ruin a series that had started off brilliantly, in only the second installment!

It was a terrible game that was clearly rushed.
 

Falseprophet

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Renegade-pizza said:
Okay, I'll get this out if the way first: The areas were all identical, spawning waves of baddies and bugs.

What else? And please no:"They changed the combat system" or any other fanboy BS about changes that are bad because they changed it.
Those things. Actually, the spawning was great the first few times, because it kept me on my toes and forced me to adjust my tactics. If they had used it occasionally instead of almost every single combat, it would have felt like a real threat instead of a predictable obstacle. Also, the difficulty was a bit wonky. I played most of the game on Hard, but then some combats got really tough. When I dialled down to Normal, they were way too easy.

I thought the plot was intriguing, really dark and depressing, and this article [http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5131] helped me see just how innovative and deep the story actually was. The second act with the qunari is probably the best. But it kind of falls apart at the very end. I think the notion that both sides were simultaneously right and wrong was put across effectively without having to make the ringleaders into literal monsters, but I suspect the gameplay devs forced a double-boss fight on the writers.

Otherwise, I thought it was great. Some of the character writing was great, better even than DAO. I love how Hawke's personality shifts depending on the tone of responses you favour. The party banter was better than ever--I felt like my companions really had their own lives and agendas going on, and I was just the friend they hung out with once in a while, instead of Hawke being the sun that their planets circled. It probably doesn't have the replay value of DAO, but it's still better than most of the games out there. At least it's trying something different.
 

everythingbeeps

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Yopaz said:
The problem with Dragon age 2: It wasn't Dragon Age Origins.
The problem with Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2: It is Modern Warfare.

Fans are petty and are likely to hate on change if they're too drastic and likely to hate on change if they don't exist. I've seen brilliant games get bad reviews from fans because they didn't do what the original did.

However they could have bothered to make more than 1 dungeon covered in different skins.
It's not fair to say that fans didn't like DA2 "because it wasn't DA:O". I'm all for change...if it's improvement.

Unfortunately, most of what DA2 changed wasn't an improvement at all. I actually liked the more action-oriented combat. But the rest of the changes were definitely for the worst. They could have been better. With better and more environments, less reliance on waves of enemies, and a more compelling story, DA2 could have been an improvement on DA:O even with all the changes.