What were the civil engineers thinking when they designed the Imperial City?

[Grayjack]

I thought it was to divide the rich and poor?

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

Umm... they where probably thinking "Let's make it a big circle surrounding the imperial palace." just a guess.

 

[Lotet]

which may be smaller than morrowinds but it looks quite significantly better.

You think Oblivion looks better than Morrowind?

eh? c'mon man, I've played Morrowind at least five times as much as much as Oblivion (and that's a lot) but Morrowind was 80% swamps and wastelands

it's the "Imperial" city. It has to look imperious: grandiose, intimidating, and symmetrical.

Well that goes out the window when you realise how fucking TINY the place is. Mournhold was a similar size and that was just the palace and rich district.

It could at least have been the same size as Vivec.

yeah, but so much of Vivec is empty, or rather, full of solid [insert lore appropriate building material] and they just cut out the living quarters as needed, then there's the open water ways, yeah, Vivec is HUGE compared to the Imperial city (with a much more clever prison I might add) but a lot of it is only for viewing

in the Imperial City on the other hand it's all packed in and is only as big as it need to be, besides, the Aylieds made the place, or at least White Gold tower, so they probably just built the districts on whatever was left of flat land on the island

 

[Bob_F_It]

I would think the seperation would come in handy if there's an uprising anywhere.
You don't like my government? LOCKDOWN!

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

The city was originally an elven design, blame it on the Ayelieds.

This. And after strolling through my forty-nine-thousandth Ayelid ruin, I have come to the conclusion that those blue crystals must cause brain cancer, or maybe every last Ayelid architect was a FUCKING NUTJOB.

The Humans never beat the Ayelids. Their own damn screwy "let's put a trap every ten feet in our underground cities and gathering places" obsession did.

 

[Axolotl]

eh? c'mon man, I've played Morrowind at least five times as much as much as Oblivion (and that's a lot) but Morrowind was 80% swamps and wastelands

But they were fantastical swamps and wastes unlike the real world with cities built by inhuman arcitects. Oblivion is just buggy green fields.

yeah, but so much of Vivec is empty, or rather, full of solid [insert lore appropriate building material] and they just cut out the living quarters as needed, then there's the open water ways, yeah, Vivec is HUGE compared to the Imperial city (with a much more clever prison I might add) but a lot of it is only for viewing

And that's the way it should be. TES games are fundementally about exploration. Removing the exploration of cities only serves to cheapen the game.

in the Imperial City on the other hand it's all packed in and is only as big as it need to be, besides, the Aylieds made the place, or at least White Gold tower, so they probably just built the districts on whatever was left of flat land on the island

Fluffwise isn't the island supposed to be the size of the Uk? And it shouldn't be as small as possible. Minimalism is a horrible design philosophy for games like TES.

 

[SimuLord]

I like the idea of option 1 as an answer. Consider that when all the crazy shit was goin' down during "Light the Dragonfires", the devastation was largely confined to Temple District.

 

[Ironic Pirate]

So that it looked like a wheel from above. Dragons are afraid of wheels, as they make air dragonback travel obsolete. Luckily they don't think of attacking wheels, but of placating them.

 

[oppp7]

Not sure. I'm guessing it's to stop invasions. But there's not many who would invade, so that doesn't make sense...

 

[Daveman]

I think it's pretty grand seeing as it's visible from most areas of the huge map,

That's just because of Oblivions simiarly undersized map.

which may be smaller than morrowinds but it looks quite significantly better.

You think Oblivion looks better than Morrowind?

the inside is a little weird but if you think about it, it's just a game, why would you make loads of houses and stuff that basically nobody would ever go in or have need of? I say fun and usefulness is more important than some abstract standard of realism.

How is a small constrained immersion killing setting fun or useful?

So you'd rather it had exactly the amount of chore and boredom of regular life? Fine, I think the suspension of disbelief is sufficient without every person in the game having their own toilet facilities and realistically armour being of little use when made of glass. And yes, oblivion does look better, please do not try and argue that the graphics quality is higher in morrowind because that would be silly.

 

[Lotet]

eh? c'mon man, I've played Morrowind at least five times as much as much as Oblivion (and that's a lot) but Morrowind was 80% swamps and wastelands

But they were fantastical swamps and wastes unlike the real world with cities built by inhuman arcitects. Oblivion is just buggy green fields.

yeah, but so much of Vivec is empty, or rather, full of solid [insert lore appropriate building material] and they just cut out the living quarters as needed, then there's the open water ways, yeah, Vivec is HUGE compared to the Imperial city (with a much more clever prison I might add) but a lot of it is only for viewing

And that's the way it should be. TES games are fundementally about exploration. Removing the exploration of cities only serves to cheapen the game.

in the Imperial City on the other hand it's all packed in and is only as big as it need to be, besides, the Aylieds made the place, or at least White Gold tower, so they probably just built the districts on whatever was left of flat land on the island

Fluffwise isn't the island supposed to be the size of the Uk? And it shouldn't be as small as possible. Minimalism is a horrible design philosophy for games like TES.

you're right! I forgot how much I actually enjoyed the Morrowind landscape, but I wish I had something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-cAI-iIFrY
earlier, makes me really appreciate what they did

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

I was playing Oblivion the other day, when I noticed something that had never occurred to me before. The design of the Imperial City doesn't make much sense. There are walls on the outside, which makes sense, given the monster hordes outside the city gates, but there are also huge walls in between each of the city sections. Why would they make these? I have a couple thoughts, but none that really make too much sense.
1)Makes the city more difficult to conquer.
An enemy would have to conquer each segment separately, and re-breach the walls every time. Still, a more sensible design in that case would be circular, ala Minis Tirith in Lord of the rings.
2)Quarantine Zombies.
This would make sense according to normal zombie rules, but Oblivion zombies aren't a result of infection but of magic, and they don't spread like other zombies, so not that idea
3)Making load times easier in the game
This is meta logic and will not be tolerated!
4)It's pretty.
That much manpower and wasted stone for aesthetics? Probably.

So what do you all think?

If one were to attribute some sort of logic beyond the obvious design limitations of the engine, it would probably be that the city's layout is designed to better resist assault. In reality though the location is excellent, the city doesn't show much care in it's defenses. The City's Keep is stationed on a seperate island, the walls are circular and thus towers haev no ability to support one another and the various sectional walls inside the city have their defense compromised by the proximity of large buildings and the like. That said, the basic principle of a layerd defense is common, and in fact only the most amature or desperate defensive operations involve a single layer of defense. Late age fortresses and citadels provided defenses in depth and taking one wall only yielded another with even deadlier defenses. Thus the reason in ancient times that fortresses and citadels were rarely assaulted - the cost of taking the structures could destroy a force that enjoyed a huge numerical superiority.

 

[Axolotl]

So you'd rather it had exactly the amount of chore and boredom of regular life?

Ah back to the strawman.

Fine, I think the suspension of disbelief is sufficient without every person in the game having their own toilet facilities

More strawmen.

realistically armour being of little use when made of glass.

Where did I say that it should? I want internal consistency and verisimilitude. I want to be able to explore cities, I want to wrapped in wonder as I was when I first entered Vivec. I want to be able to go out and find hidden locations and be surrounded by a living world filled with magic and wonder.

And yes, oblivion does look better, please do not try and argue that the graphics quality is higher in morrowind because that would be silly.

Morrowind has fantastical swamps and wastes unlike the real world with cities built by inhuman arcitects. Oblivion is just buggy green fields. Art direction trumps mere technological power.

 

[Daveman]

So you'd rather it had exactly the amount of chore and boredom of regular life?

Ah back to the strawman.

Fine, I think the suspension of disbelief is sufficient without every person in the game having their own toilet facilities

More strawmen.

realistically armour being of little use when made of glass.

Where did I say that it should? I want internal consistency and verisimilitude. I want to be able to explore cities, I want to wrapped in wonder as I was when I first entered Vivec. I want to be able to go out and find hidden locations and be surrounded by a living world filled with magic and wonder.

And yes, oblivion does look better, please do not try and argue that the graphics quality is higher in morrowind because that would be silly.

Morrowind has fantastical swamps and wastes unlike the real world with cities built by inhuman arcitects. Oblivion is just buggy green fields. Art direction trumps mere technological power.

OK look, stop saying "strawmen", I've never heard of that phrase before and it's weirding me out. I'm just making an point, I'm not literally accusing you of all those things, that might be what you mean, I don't know to be honest.

You're choosing an arbitrary level of accuracy to adhere reality and the game world. Why should their infrastructure be anything like reality, to be honest morrowind probably doesn't remotely have enough farmland to sustain a population of that size, but does anyone really care? Why doesn't that irk you in the same way the small city size does in oblivion?

As well, oblivion has the (maybe slightly generic) wastes of oblivion to explore and some swampland down in the southern part of the map, so that ticks off wastes and swamps from the list. It also has seasonal weather and pristine mountain ranges. Not to mention the Shivering Isles which adds another level of variety.

 

[Pimppeter2]

They have a loading screen fetish?

 

[TsunamiWombat]

They weren't, The Imperial City was built on the ruins of the Ayelied capital.

 

[Axolotl]

OK look, stop saying "strawmen", I've never heard of that phrase before and it's weirding me out.

Strawmanningis when instead of offering a rebuttal of somebodies points yuou put words in their mouth and then critisise that instead.

You're choosing an arbitrary level of accuracy to adhere reality and the game world.

No I'm asking for internal consistancy and verisimilitude.

Why should their infrastructure be anything like reality, to be honest morrowind probably doesn't remotely have enough farmland to sustain a population of that size, but does anyone really care? Why doesn't that irk you in the same way the small city size does in oblivion?

Because large cities provoke woder and encourages exploration. Farmland does not. Also it breaks verisimilitude more.

As well, oblivion has the (maybe slightly generic) wastes of oblivion to explore and some swampland down in the southern part of the map, so that ticks off wastes and swamps from the list. It also has seasonal weather and pristine mountain ranges. Not to mention the Shivering Isles which adds another level of variety.

No moment in Oblvion has stayed with me the same way as when in Morrowind I once looked up through a red-dust storm and glimpsed a giant rusting metal tower sticking out of a mountain top. Nothing has made me look around in silenced awe the same way I did when I first entered Vivec. Nothing in Oblvion stirred my imagination as much as when I saw the villages in Morrowind made of chitin of giant beasts or carved ionto enourmous growths. The only sight in Oblvion that compare to these was when I first left the Imperial sewers and due to a grapical glitch saw all the grass turned purple.

 

[Daveman]

OK look, stop saying "strawmen", I've never heard of that phrase before and it's weirding me out.

Strawmanningis when instead of offering a rebuttal of somebodies points yuou put words in their mouth and then critisise that instead.

You're choosing an arbitrary level of accuracy to adhere reality and the game world.

No I'm asking for internal consistancy and verisimilitude.

Why should their infrastructure be anything like reality, to be honest morrowind probably doesn't remotely have enough farmland to sustain a population of that size, but does anyone really care? Why doesn't that irk you in the same way the small city size does in oblivion?

Because large cities provoke woder and encourages exploration. Farmland does not. Also it breaks verisimilitude more.

As well, oblivion has the (maybe slightly generic) wastes of oblivion to explore and some swampland down in the southern part of the map, so that ticks off wastes and swamps from the list. It also has seasonal weather and pristine mountain ranges. Not to mention the Shivering Isles which adds another level of variety.

No moment in Oblvion has stayed with me the same way as when in Morrowind I once looked up through a red-dust storm and glimpsed a giant rusting metal tower sticking out of a mountain top. Nothing has made me look around in silenced awe the same way I did when I first entered Vivec. Nothing in Oblvion stirred my imagination as much as when I saw the villages in Morrowind made of chitin of giant beasts or carved ionto enourmous growths. The only sight in Oblvion that compare to these was when I first left the Imperial sewers and due to a grapical glitch saw all the grass turned purple.

Ah forget it, you're just complaining that they didn't remake Morrowind. When I saw Vivec I was instantly lost in it, not my imagination was lost I mean literally lost, everywhere I went looked the same and the entire thing was basically one texture. I eventually had to resort to jumping off the side to get off it. And when I saw the city made out of that dead animal I just kept wondering what happened to all the rest and why there aren't loads more of them scattered here and there. I mean it was interesting but it made even less sense than a small city.

Besides, it's Cyrodiil, land of the imperials who are basically the games' human race. Obviously their land is supposed to mirror ours, it's not going to have trees that are blue and stuff. But that said there is a fair bit of variety as I pointed out, and you can't say the Shivering Isles didn't have plenty of weird and wacky stuff.

 

[Axolotl]

Ah forget it, you're just complaining that they didn't remake Morrowind.

No I'm complaining that they made a bad game when there was a good game already. Oblivion has the same basic system as Morrowind but fails because of a bad setting. Both games are rooted in exploration but where Morrowind rewarded it with fantastical sights and hidden areas Oblivion does not.

When I saw Vivec I was instantly lost in it, not my imagination was lost I mean literally lost, everywhere I went looked the same and the entire thing was basically one texture. I eventually had to resort to jumping off the side to get off it.

Were you unable to use the map? And I see the ability to get lost as agood thing, once again it encourages exploration.

And when I saw the city made out of that dead animal I just kept wondering what happened to all the rest and why there aren't loads more of them scattered here and there. I mean it was interesting but it made even less sense than a small city.

But it's justified in that it increases the sense of fantasy and emphasises the alien nature of the culture you're exploring. Small cities just limit options and break verisimilitude.

Besides, it's Cyrodiil, land of the imperials who are basically the games' human race. Obviously their land is supposed to mirror ours, it's not going to have trees that are blue and stuff.

If a setting demands blandness then surely it's bad design to use that setting? And it's perfectly possible to have an area be humanocentric and stil have it be interesting. Cyrodiil was originally described as "The Roman Empire in the Amazon rainforest" that could provide interesting aesthetics.

 

[Daveman]

Ah forget it, you're just complaining that they didn't remake Morrowind.

No I'm complaining that they made a bad game when there was a good game already. Oblivion has the same basic system as Morrowind but fails because of a bad setting. Both games are rooted in exploration but where Morrowind rewarded it with fantastical sights and hidden areas Oblivion does not.

When I saw Vivec I was instantly lost in it, not my imagination was lost I mean literally lost, everywhere I went looked the same and the entire thing was basically one texture. I eventually had to resort to jumping off the side to get off it.

Were you unable to use the map? And I see the ability to get lost as agood thing, once again it encourages exploration.

And when I saw the city made out of that dead animal I just kept wondering what happened to all the rest and why there aren't loads more of them scattered here and there. I mean it was interesting but it made even less sense than a small city.

But it's justified in that it increases the sense of fantasy and emphasises the alien nature of the culture you're exploring. Small cities just limit options and break verisimilitude.

Besides, it's Cyrodiil, land of the imperials who are basically the games' human race. Obviously their land is supposed to mirror ours, it's not going to have trees that are blue and stuff.

If a setting demands blandness then surely it's bad design to use that setting? And it's perfectly possible to have an area be humanocentric and stil have it be interesting. Cyrodiil was originally described as "The Roman Empire in the Amazon rainforest" that could provide interesting aesthetics.

OK, I'm just going to have to give up and say you're wrong.
-Oblivion is not a bad game
-It's not a bad setting
-There are fantastical sights, just not in the imperial city... actually no, fuck that, that tower in the middle of it is pretty fantastical.
-The map's a piece of shit in vivec, it was most useful when using the boots of blinding speed so I could see a rough outline of the path ahead as I walked
-It's not bland, if you think a field or a forest is bland you don't get out enough, don't make me sing "colours of the wind" from pocahontas!
-It is interesting.

Out of interest, how'd it look in Arena? I was just wondering...