What's the line between a sex object and a sexual/sexy character?

[Savagezion]

I think if I just posted a picture of my penis, the viewer would have learned more about me than these pictures say for the DOA characters.

What was it exactly that those pictures were suppose to prove?

Really did you just see boobs get a boner then your brain stopped working ?

One of the major claims is that it's impossible to tell anything about female characters while male characters are often distinct in saying about their career etc.

If you really can't see the similarities between the real world women and the game characters in terms of attire then I think you might have a far bigger problem.

If you think that showing a real life oper singer wears similar clothing while preforming, to the opera singer in DOA says something about her character...

Maybe, I'm going about this wrong. When I ask what does any of this say about her character, I am speaking of her personality. My mistake, I now see how speaking of a character's character can be confusing when taking about the line between sex object and sexy character. After all, if this topic was called, What is the line between a sex object and a sexual sexy personality, it would answer itself, wouldn't it?

Then you believe in profiling and stereotyping people. If you think a character should be able to be understood by how they look then you would clearly be stereotyping and profiling. You can't know someone's personality by what they look like as how they dress is merely a small fraction of who they are. Presentation is only a small part of who we are and cannot encompass us as a whole. When I look at you or you look at me, all we get is a slight glimpse at best. All appearance has to offer is what you like to advertise about yourself. In which case, many people lie and dress in a way to conform to some part of society and actually NOT reveal anything of their individuality.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I'm going to take the cheap and easy way out.

It depends on context and personal taste. Like, my opinion of say, Zelda in Hyrule Warriors might be different than yours, but it regardless of my obviously perfect taste, I still wouldn't begrudge you having your blatantly wrong opinion.

Spoiler

Trying to be funny

Actual opinion on Zelda: Good Warriors costume, rubbish armor from a realism perspective. It's got strapless shoulders for god's sake!

Trends are a bit simpler due to sample size. You can say, for ex, that "female characters in games tend to be over-sexualized" more easily than "this particular character is being over-sexualized" because, while we may disagree on specific examples, it's more likely to get a consensus. If out of, say 60 female characters, I think a third are too over the top, and you think a quarter are over the top, then even if our specific examples don't make both lists, it's still useful. Then, we can disagree civilly and have a conversation.
(Numbers pulled straight out of my ass. Point is, discussion is cool.)

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

I think if I just posted a picture of my penis, the viewer would have learned more about me than these pictures say for the DOA characters.

What was it exactly that those pictures were suppose to prove?

Really did you just see boobs get a boner then your brain stopped working ?

One of the major claims is that it's impossible to tell anything about female characters while male characters are often distinct in saying about their career etc.

If you really can't see the similarities between the real world women and the game characters in terms of attire then I think you might have a far bigger problem.

If you think that showing a real life oper singer wears similar clothing while preforming, to the opera singer in DOA says something about her character...

Maybe, I'm going about this wrong. When I ask what does any of this say about her character, I am speaking of her personality. My mistake, I now see how speaking of a character's character can be confusing when taking about the line between sex object and sexy character. After all, if this topic was called, What is the line between a sex object and a sexual sexy personality, it would answer itself, wouldn't it?

Then you believe in profiling and stereotyping people. If you think a character should be able to be understood by how they look then you would clearly be stereotyping and profiling. You can't know someone's personality by what they look like as how they dress is merely a small fraction of who they are. Presentation is only a small part of who we are and cannot encompass us as a whole. When I look at you or you look at me, all we get is a slight glimpse at best. All appearance has to offer is what you like to advertise about yourself. In which case, many people lie and dress in a way to conform to some part of society and actually NOT reveal anything of their individuality.

I am not sure why you are quoting me here, I did not say anything of the sort about a character being understood by how they look. Was this quote intentional?

 

[Savagezion]

I am not sure why you are quoting me here, I did not say anything of the sort about a character being understood by how they look. Was this quote intentional?

"When I ask what does any of this say about her character, I am speaking of her personality."

The quote was intentional. How someone looks has little to do with their personality.

If this were true, you should be able to tell me all about this man who clearly expresses himself in how he dresses.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

Simplify it: Whats the diffrence between an object and a character?

If you can answer this the adjective doesnt matter.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Let's just put this grand ol' question to bed, shall we?

Aha-heh-ha-HEM.

THE LINE IS WHERE YOU PERSONALLY DRAW IT.

EXPECTING IT TO BE THE SAME FOR EVERYONE ELSE, GIVEN THE WAY THAT PERSPECTIVE FUNCTIONS, IS AN INHERENTLY FLAWED MEANS OF DISCERNING WHERE SAID LINE IS OR SHOULD BE.

SOMETHING YOU CONSIDER TO BE SEXY OR ACTING SEXY? OVERLY OR NOT SO MUCH? SOMEONE ELSE COULD COMPLETELY OVERLOOK IT AND THEIR INTERPRETATION WOULD BE JUST AS VALID AS YOURS.

TLDR; Some people just see a pair of tits/a bulge. Others see a strong, well developed (pardon the potential pun) character who happens to be attractive. Neither interpretation is inherently/objectively or provably wrong for everyone. This includes clothed and unclothed characters of both genders.

It's an opinion. I just wish people would stop attempting to enforce theirs on the rest of us. :/

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

I am not sure why you are quoting me here, I did not say anything of the sort about a character being understood by how they look. Was this quote intentional?

"When I ask what does any of this say about her character, I am speaking of her personality."

The quote was intentional. How someone looks has little to do with their personality.

If this were true, you should be able to tell me all about this man who clearly expresses himself in how he dresses.

I do not believe that the whole of a person/character's personality can be determined from a stranger with no prior knowledge of said person/character's existence. It never was my intention to say such a thing. I would like to argue your points. I want to first make clear that your points stem from words that I never said. If you feel that I am saying such a thing, you are going to have to explain why.

 

[Batou667]

This is interesting. I'm attempting to compile a small database of female game characters. Any examples I should be considering, people?

[edit]

OK, I've had a crack at this. Since "attractiveness" and "sexualisation" are usually synonymous when talking about women in media, I've treated then as interchangeable. Likewise, I'm aware that "agency" in gaming is difficult to quantify as these are fictional characters we're talking about: their actions are predetermined; their appearance isn't accidental or their own choice, it's determined by the dev team, and so on. So, I've tried to gauge their perceived or presented agency of the character in the context of the game they appear in. Fighting game characters are tricky as they're hugely capable, yet spend half their time getting beaten up... anyway, here's my attempt.

Spoiler: Grid

Spoiler: Analysis

Thoughts?

 

[TallanKhan]

I would say multi-dimensional character development. If they exist as a character with a personality and role in a game beyond providing a sexual dimension to proceedings then they are a character. If not, object.

 

[Savagezion]

I do not believe that the whole of a person/character's personality can be determined from a stranger with no prior knowledge of said person/character's existence. It never was my intention to say such a thing. I would like to argue your points. I want to first make clear that your points stem from words that I never said. If you feel that I am saying such a thing, you are going to have to explain why.

Okie dokie then.

I think if I just posted a picture of my penis, the viewer would have learned more about me than these pictures say for the DOA characters.

What was it exactly that those pictures were suppose to prove?

I don't think a picture of your penis could tell me more about you than the pictured The Kodu provided. I have never played DOA because I don't care about fighting games. However, I would have guessed just from the pictures alone that Tina is a wrestler, (Mostly because of the fringe on her arm mixed with the outfit.) Helena I would have guessed a noble or theatre actress, and Mila screams MMA fighter.

If you think that showing a real life opera singer wears similar clothing while preforming, to the opera singer in DOA says something about her character...

Now considering that this is what they do, it actually DOES say something about them. Something your penis surprisingly doesn't do about you. These would be passions and/or life choices about them. It gives you a glimpse which is all it can ever do. This tells you what they spend a lot of time doing and thus you can associate the type of culture they are surrounded by often. It isn't much, but its all appearance alone can afford to offer.

Fighting games don't have narratives. Scorpion from MK is no better a character than any DOA girl. The narrative to fighters, is usually a tournament. Story is mostly irrelevant so many female fighting game characters get a lot of unwarranted heat because they are easy tagets due to not having stories but instead mostly shallow characters. Now, I don't play fighters so I'll leave it there. Kodu made a pretty valid point though.

Otherwise, I think LostGryphon summed it up in all capitals above.

What exactly separates someone who was created to be eye candy from someone who is much more than that?

Basically, Context.

Someone created to be eye candy isn't going to offer much else. Because their sole reason for existing is eye candy. This is why I was called perverted for liking the original Tomb Raider for many years. Others decided that I played it for the bewbs. Because the first iterations of Lara were SO super sexy and the game were just 'so terrible'. (/sarcasm)

Tomb Raider was revolutionary really. To this day me and a couple friends still call 3rd person camera "tomb raider view" which is what we called it in the PS era. Lara treaded that line of eye candy for years no doubt because Crystal Dynamics refused to evolve the character keeping her character static. Finally, with the reboot following after Uncharted maybe Tomb Raider fans will get the character development we always wanted. You can play every Tomb Raider game out there and her father is supposed to be some big name guy but after playing them all, you still know jack shit about him as the viewer but he is clearly important in that world. Just nobody bothers to say why unless it is directly relevant to what is going on and it can even get contradictory because its often used as a plot device.

In the end, you have to make the call based on the context and your interpretation of it.

Spoiler: Eye Candies

That is eye candy for some people. It is not eye candy for me. Bayonetta is not eye candy for me but I do like her character.


Let's have some fun and we'll bring out my girl Faith who is eye candy for me.

Spoiler: Faith

Based on her character design I would be thinking hacker or android due to the tattoo of circuitry on her arm plus the tattoo on her eye. I would really be assuming cybernetics were somehow involved. The red glove makes me think MMA as well as the form fitting clothing and shoes thin enough to compare to wrestling shoes. I would not be thinking parkour courier. I would guess she is very active considering she takes time to tighten her lower pants.

She isn't a character that would be considered sexualized yet I think she is extremely attractive or 'sexy'. However, lets pull out another eye candy example for me.

Spoiler: Chloe

Is that beer for me? Stupid Nate. As happy as I was to see Elena show back up, I was also sad knowing it was time for Chloe to exit stage left. I would say Chloe was kinda sexualized as it is clear her relationship with Drake was based on the rush from the jobs and sex. Chloe lives fast and in the moment. She is actually what has me interested at all in Uncharted 4.

Now let's have a look at conventional eye candy.

Spoiler

Don't care. Congratulations, you have a body and apparently no intelligence.

"Hey don't touch that, it kills people"
*touches it for no apparent reason and spends the rest of the game in limbo trying to get out*

But you can see her goods.

Not much is explained about the furry or miss X Blades. No explanation needed. It's just tits and ass for the sake of tits and ass. (One just happens to be a bit more disturbing) They are meant to be gawked at. What separates a character is they actually have characteristics that lead to identifiable motivations. An object needs no discernible motivations which is probably why beauty is often paired with stupidity. A stupid person doesn't really have motives of their own but rather they take on the motives around them and when they do act on their own, it makes no sense. A special case in video games are that they are just a generic 'skin'. (As in model/texture)

 

[Savagezion]

Spoiler: Grid

Spoiler: Analysis

Thoughts?

LOL leave it to gamers to diagram sexism. As amusing as it is I actually do like the chart and even agree with it for the most part. Would be interesting to see it with more characters added in.

BTW in my experience Alex Vance is generally regarded as more attractive than Peach or Zelda. Or at least I see more people post about how she is sexy yet casual and rarely see peach or zelda come up.

 

[Bruce]

Before I begin: Please, let's keep this discussion civil; this has much more to do with writing and design then it will with a character's appearance ("then why is design there?" I dunno)

TL;DR What separates a sex object from a sexual character?

I know this sounds like a really bad thing to discuss in the midst of GamerGate and everything else in the industry but I believe the topic does deserve exploration, we can't just ignore it and we can't just talk about it violently. So let's do this as composed as we possibly can.

Okay, so now that Bayonetta has been released I've been sort of forced to ask myself ,"What exactly makes someone 'sexy'?". I know this seems like a stupid question to ask because it has a fairly straightforward answer, but I feel like there's more that needs to be asked. The best comparison I can offer to illustrate my confusion though would be, well, Bayonetta against someone like Kasumi from DOAX.

A long time ago I would have called Kasumi sexy because she wandered around on an island with almost nothing on. Now, I sort of feel insulted in a way when I look back at that game. DOAX (I know it's spin-off to a fighting game) is basically built from the ground up for male gratification, just about every character is put on display for the viewer and nothing else. It's just throwing out what we want to see and hoping it gets buyers.

With Bayonetta though, it's almost the same but entirely different. Bayonetta was designed to be over the top sexually, in fights, in appearance, in everything. She's the personification of the dial turned up to 11. More importantly, her outfit is a skin tight suit made of her own hair, that vanishes- leaving her exposed- in order to do crazy attacks. As the Gametrailer review of it puts her,"she flaunts it," and never once does it seem sort of like "we're doing this because this is what all the guys want to see." She attacks with incredibly sensual movements and is just reveling in it. Bayonetta comes off as a much more attractive and appealing character in most in this sense, this leaves me asking why?

This doesn't go for just someone like Bayonetta, but also characters like Lust from FMA, Catwoman from DC, June from Avatar, hell Jessica-FREAKING-Rabbit! Even in male characters too: Bruce Wayne, Chris Redfield(?), James Bond, Nathan Drake, and even Dio Brando!

I'm sorry I don't have more examples, but these women and men somehow manage to be more appealing than any character who just exposes it all for free. Why? The most concise answer I've been given so far is that it relates to the idea of "show don't tell" but that's still vague in a sense for me. So what do you think? What exactly separates someone who was created to be eye candy from someone who is much more than that?

Well it is simply this - are they a character that actually has an interest in sex?

Recently I finished replaying Dungeon Keeper 2, the Mistress is a very sexualised creature - and yet she isn't objectified.

Why? Because when you get right down to it, the sexualisation is part of her character. The idea of the mistress is she is having one heck of a lot of fun with her particular kink.

And that is the difference with the DOA girls - they are created in a way that has all the attributes of sexuality, but they are also weirdly sexless.

It is okay to make a character "sexy" but it has to fit in with the rest of their character in one way or another - it has to be part of who they are.

Otherwise, its just eye candy.

 

[Scow2]

-snip-

So... you're saying my sister is just eye candy? She's sexy (And knows it, and wears outfits that show it off), but is also strongly celibate and pretty serious. And plays rugby.

 

[ObserverStatus]

Difference between a sexy character and a sex object? That's easy.

Object + Personality = Character

Sexy Character - Personality = Sex Object

 

[Ryan Hughes]

The answer to the OP is simple, and even well-defined: What makes a portrayal objectification is simply when the woman is objectified.

A grammar lesson real quick: In sentences, subjects act and objects are acted upon. So, when you say someone is "objectified" it means that they have had their agency taken, and are merely being acted upon by subjects. Take note that the acting subject may or may not be internal to the fiction, image, or text itself, but could be the viewer of that text.

So, going back to Bayonetta, in-text, we see she chooses to dress as she does, thus she is a subject rather than an object. . . to an extent. Then enters the rather philosophical debate of whether or not fictional characters can have "agency" of their own, or are in fact mirrors for the agency of the authors of those characters. This then, would make Bayonetta an object, along with every other fictional character ever created.

To make things even more complex: We must ask what is actually harmful and what is not. Not all objectified characters or images are harmful, and even people acting out of their own agency can be -in the end- far more harmful than any image or character. For example: Some women feel that having glamorous photos taken of themselves gives them confidence, and rather than decrease agency, this allows them to act with more consistency. On the other hand, some women -acting entirely on their own- have opposed basic rights for their own gender throughout history, such as opposing women's voting rights or the right to own property.

The nature of sexualized images is highly ideological. These images are rarely wrong in-and-of themselves, however, we must ask questions whenever we see these types of images: Who created this image? Why did they do so? Who is the intended audience for this image? Also, there are other questions we must ask, where the answers vary widely from person to person and situation to situation: Do I find this image appealing, and if so, why? Am I being disrespected by the maker of the image, who may assume I can be manipulated by such imagery? Will this effect how I treat women in real life, and if so, how?

In a sense, I would argue that we all have a moral obligation to ask these questions of ourselves, and this is where the real problem lies, to which there are no easy answers. In truth: "objectification" is just a lazy shorthand to imply that a person objects to an image on these or other grounds.

 

[Quadocky]

to me objectification is just one aspect of the entire spectrum of shittiness that has to do with how people relate to sex and sexuality. Anyone can be objectified. Given mainstream sexuality in the USA is pretty much Women being Givers of Sex to Males, that is usually where the bulk of it lays in media.

The problem with I have with Objectification is that its very easy for empathy to be lost for such representations of individuals. They become something to be consumed, not thought of in any meaningful way.

Its bad because there seems to be an unfortunate number of people out there who feel entitled to the bodies of women or men, such representations only feed into their entitlement without much in the way of critical thought or empathy.

Empathy being the key thing here.

 

[Batou667]

LOL leave it to gamers to diagram sexism. As amusing as it is I actually do like the chart and even agree with it for the most part. Would be interesting to see it with more characters added in.

Heh, thanks. Actually I'd quite like to do a "serious" version using much more data. I'd be happy to take on board any suggestions for more female characters you can think of, I just limited this to the first 30 or so that came to mind.

BTW in my experience Alex Vance is generally regarded as more attractive than Peach or Zelda. Or at least I see more people post about how she is sexy yet casual and rarely see peach or zelda come up.

Yeah, it's a bit subjective, and I suppose I'd need to let people vote on it to get an average placing. Alyx is definitely a "girl next door" kind of attractive but that appeals more to some people than Zelda's very stereotypical prettiness, I suppose.

 

[DaWaffledude]

You're in luck. Anita is going to explain it to us all in her next video, entitled "Fighting Fuck Toys"

Spoiler

Apparently she's not a Bayonetta fan.

Sarcasm aside, I'm actually quite looking forward to this. Hopefully she will actually engage with those who think that (rightly or wrongly) that Bayonetta is a progressive character rather than just say "OMG her hair flies off when she does a finishing move".

Okay, this is something that's been bugging me for a while. Nothing to do with you in particular, just something I keep seeing and can't figure out.

Why does everyone keep calling her "Anita"? Do people not usually refer to public figures using their last names? You don't call President Obama "Barrack".

 

[Savagezion]

LOL leave it to gamers to diagram sexism. As amusing as it is I actually do like the chart and even agree with it for the most part. Would be interesting to see it with more characters added in.

Heh, thanks. Actually I'd quite like to do a "serious" version using much more data. I'd be happy to take on board any suggestions for more female characters you can think of, I just limited this to the first 30 or so that came to mind.

BTW in my experience Alex Vance is generally regarded as more attractive than Peach or Zelda. Or at least I see more people post about how she is sexy yet casual and rarely see peach or zelda come up.

Yeah, it's a bit subjective, and I suppose I'd need to let people vote on it to get an average placing. Alyx is definitely a "girl next door" kind of attractive but that appeals more to some people than Zelda's very stereotypical prettiness, I suppose.

Nariko from Heavenly Sword active/sexy. Same with Faith from mirrors edge but I bet she would fall mid-tier. Chloe and Elena from Uncharted would probably be attractive/ passive. Alpha Protocol's women would be more passives ranging in attractiveness based on players. Ditto with the inclusion of both Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

That would be a lot of work. Would be kinda cool to see where players voting ranked them as well as their roles.

EDIT:

Why does everyone keep calling her "Anita"? Do people not usually refer to public figures using their last names? You don't call President Obama "Barrack".

It's way shorter than Sarkeesian. Same reason we dont type out "laugh out loud".