When is a game too ''Japanese'' for you?

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SquallTheBlade

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NPC009 said:
SquallTheBlade said:
I think people are missing out on great games because of this. Some people have mentioned Final Fantasy X-2 and Tales of series in this thread which are known for their excellent battle systems. What else do you really need in a game?
There are plenty of RPGs with awesome battle systems, so why not stick to playing RPGs with great battlesystems that have do something else right as well?
Because that would limit the games I play way too much. And I don't care about other aspects that much so why would I do that? If the game has good story, characters, graphics ect. it's neat but it's in no way a requirement.

Well, maybe I've missed those games with good balance of everything. Can you name a few?

Most of these things are 30-50 hours long, and that's a lot of time to spend on something for just one aspect of it.
But that one aspect is THE reason to play games in the first place. even if the story was good and lasted for 30hours, I would propably get another 60hours of off it by replaying the game and doing all the optional content. So basically just enjoying the gameplay. The gameplay MUST be good before I'm willing to spend all that time.
 

Dominic Crossman

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Tony2077 said:
Dominic Crossman said:
I will literally play any game if the gameplay is good enough regardless of story, that being said story can and does bring the game down as whole sometimes, anything by compile heart for example normally has a good battle system but a story that range from barely passable to completely awful.
that's funny since if anything I'm more likely to get a game if it has them in some way hell i just bought the new neptunia ps4 game
Maybe I didn't make my post clear, but I get complie hearts games as well because I like the gameplay. Also didn't think the new ps4 one was out in English, or do you speak/read Japanese. I'll have to look for this.
 

NPC009

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Aug 23, 2010
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SquallTheBlade said:
NPC009 said:
SquallTheBlade said:
I think people are missing out on great games because of this. Some people have mentioned Final Fantasy X-2 and Tales of series in this thread which are known for their excellent battle systems. What else do you really need in a game?
There are plenty of RPGs with awesome battle systems, so why not stick to playing RPGs with great battlesystems that have do something else right as well?
Because that would limit the games I play way too much. And I don't care about other aspects that much so why would I do that? If the game has good story, characters, graphics ect. it's neat but it's in no way a requirement.

Well, maybe I've missed those games with good balance of everything. Can you name a few?
I've played over 400 RPGs, so you might want to narrow it done to a few systems, type of battle system (action, turn-based, strategy) or age, or something ^_^'

Some of my favourites:
-The Shin Megami Tensei series put a heavy focus on gameplay and has some great, fast-paced turn-based battle systems that force the player to play efficiently. On top of that you get some seriously dark stories in which you get to decide which path human life will take after the apocalypse. The Persona games are more story oriented, but offer similar battle systems.

-Radiant History offers both an engaging time travel story and strategic combat in which you push and pull enemies around on a 3x3 grid.

-The Atelier series is best know for its crafting (which is super fun), but it's also the home of some great turn-based battle systems that allow you exploit turn order with items, flashy moves and more. If you're new to the series, I recommend trying either something from the Dusk series (these are relatively low on head deskingly Japanese entertainment cliches) or Mana Khemia, which is part of the Atelier series despite its name. It's actually a pretty funny game and the story packs some painful punches towards the end.

-You're obviously already playing the Tales series, and while I wouldn't recommend any random installment to any random player, I honestly believe you can't go wrong with Symphonia, the Abyss and Vesperia.

-Etrian Odyssey: challenging battles, and drawing perfect maps is just the best.


Most of these things are 30-50 hours long, and that's a lot of time to spend on something for just one aspect of it.
But that one aspect is THE reason to play games in the first place. even if the story was good and lasted for 30hours, I would propably get another 60hours of off it by replaying the game and doing all the optional content. So basically just enjoying the gameplay. The gameplay MUST be good before I'm willing to spend all that time.[/quote]

I disagree. If you don't care about the story you're usually your wasting time playing story heavy games. I guess you could skip through most of it, but that kind of limits the experience, if you ask me. Take something like the Tales series: battle systems are great, sure, but what the point of playing more than one if you don't enjoy character interaction and such? Plus, part of what makes the battles good is the context the story gives them. One of the most challenging bosses in the series, the optional super boss of Tales of the Abyss, wouldn't have been the same without the sidequest with it.

And there are atleast several RPGs I'd recommend playing just for the story. Fragile Dreams plays rather awkward and clunky, but if you have 15 hours to spare, the moving story about isolation and loneliness more than makes up for it. I barely remember what Final Fantasy X-2 was about (I just remember it being fun but kinda dumb), but when I think about Fragile Dreams, I still remember the story and the emotions that it evoked.
 

Tony2077

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Dominic Crossman said:
Tony2077 said:
Dominic Crossman said:
I will literally play any game if the gameplay is good enough regardless of story, that being said story can and does bring the game down as whole sometimes, anything by compile heart for example normally has a good battle system but a story that range from barely passable to completely awful.
that's funny since if anything I'm more likely to get a game if it has them in some way hell i just bought the new neptunia ps4 game
Maybe I didn't make my post clear, but I get complie hearts games as well because I like the gameplay. Also didn't think the new ps4 one was out in English, or do you speak/read Japanese. I'll have to look for this.
it's in English and the site i got it from says Feb. 2
 

infohippie

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Silverbeard said:
infohippie said:
Sounds intriguing, I'd give it a try. I really feel you're overreacting here.
Don't do it, my brother/sister. Save yourself from the shame. Watch a few youtube vids instead to get an idea of what I'm talking about.
In truth, the game itself isn't that great. The mechanics are boilerplate JRPG and the story is passable at best. I do confess that I stopped at the 13 hour mark and JRPG storylines are known for being slow burners but this one just didn't hold my interest enough for me to overlook all the aftorementioned nonsense.
Well, I'll check it out at least. JRPGs are all too rare on the PC platform and since I don't own any consoles I tend to jump right into any PC ones I find.
 

Shoggoth2588

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I've never really been turned away by games that are "too Japanese". One of my favorite SNES games as a kid was Secret of the Mystical Ninja and even now part of what makes me say Yokai Watch was my game of 2015 was how very Japanese it is. Then again, those two examples beat you over the head with Japanese folklore which I'm sure some would argue is fine...it's the OTHER Japanese stuff that puts people off like fan service, no option for an English vocal track, etc...and I love those things too. I prefer the Japanese vocal track because most of the time, that's the original voice track; that's how the game was meant to be experienced as I understand. As for fan service, I am unashamedly into that kind of thing though not to the point where I'm going to import a sub-par volleyball game when I can just re-watch Monster Musume on Crunchyroll.

I'm not into visual novels I guess...and I hated Trinity Universe or whatever the Hell that was. I like to play games, not have a story read to me. I'll take a dating sim over those any day and that's another genre that I just don't care about.
 

Dragonpit

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Lightspeaker said:
Thing is...you can make the exact same argument for violence in most cases. How about those MGS torture sequences? Quite easy to argue that putting them in all the damn time is unnecessary to the story but they're in there all the time. Fundamentally fanservice is simply a part of the tone of a piece of media. Its there for its own reason, it doesn't NEED other things 'justifying' it. If you don't like that tone then there's plenty of other stuff with its own tone to go enjoy. I mean its not as if they've shoehorned panty shots into This War of Mine or something.

Hell, you brought up games like Hyperdimension Neptunia which, at its core, is a funny, silly, irreverent story poking jabs at anything and everything it can get its hands on with a hefty side-order of cuteness which both uses and lambasts tropes. Fanservice in a game like that absolutely fits with the tone.

I find it weird that you're saying 'trying to pull the wool over my eyes' when talking about Japanese originated stuff though. Like I already said...Japanese games are actually MORE honest and open about it than western games are, which tend to be more coy about it when its put in at all.

Frankly, I also find the whole "violence is good, naughtiness is bad" thing to be a weird as hell result of America influence on media. Personally for many years I was like that; the whole 'trenchcoat-edginess' thing as a means to try to be cool. But then I grew up and out of my teens and I realised I was exhausted of that garbage and, frankly, how rather horrific the whole thing and people's attitude to it was. And I realised that...you know what...I can like cute and funny things and not give a damn about what anyone thinks about it. Not everything has to be grimdark.

You don't HAVE to like any of it. But I find it extremely bizarre and more than a little sad the phobias and shaming attitude people seem to have towards anything even slightly risqu?.
Well, yeah, you *can* say the same about violence, but violence is not what this is about.

In regards to Neptunia, it just feels like the fanservice is there to draw guy gamers into the game, but the fact that all male characters that aren't robots or villains are incredibly shameless perverts or just don't have any sort of appearance worth a damn (I mean silhouettes) gives me this strong sense that the game series just does not like me, the player. If that's the way it's gonna be, I'd sooner they dropped the pretense they try to deliver with the fanservice and stop treating me like a moron.

As for it's story, I just can't appreciate it. At all. It's not the cutseiness or the light-hearted nature of things. I can handle that. The issue is the anti-piracy message that permeates the whole story. It's handled so poorly throughout the entire series, because the way it's written, it's clearly a message that's only for the benefit of the makers of the games. I understand why piracy is a bad thing, but it also makes it seem like the only ways the player can benefit the industry is by buying games or making them. It undermines anything else the player can do by making it a black-and-white issue, when it clearly isn't. But none of that is the original topic.

Let me ask you this: why do you watch anime? I mean, sure, you can put up with the fanservice. It's possible to push past it. But is that what you looking to see? Me, I'm usually looking for some clever humor, a solid story, great animations, interesting characters, stuff like that. But while I can push past some pointless fanservice, it also holds true that I shouldn't have to.

But that's not to say fanservice can't work. It's possible to use it to push plot forward somehow, or develop relationships, or even define characters through their attitudes. But when I see some male character, perverted or otherwise, constantly forced into uncomfortable or sexual positions with girls of varying ages and dispositions, I can't help but feel I'm not so much watching anime, so much as I am watching someone's sexual fantasy. At least with hentai, that's the point...
 

Zhukov

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When it has:

- Shit dialogue that borders on the incoherent. Maybe it's all solid gold in the original Japanese, but in English it's usually a horrible mess of redundant blather. ("Metal gear?")

- Dialogue that is 20% grunts, murmurs and reaction noises. People don't talk like that. I thought it might be a language thing, but Japanese people don't talk like that either. I've listened to native Japanese speakers chatting and they weren't going "...eh?" every time someone addressed them. Which leads me to conclude that they put it in their games purely to spite me.

- Woeful voice acting. No idea why, but the folks in charge of localizing Japanese games always seem real shy about shelling out for decent voice talent. Probably a business thing. Not that it would help, considering the caliber of crap they'd have to work with.

- Bad interfaces. For some reason, Japanese developers just fucking love their menus. Slow, clumsy, clunky console menus as far as the eye can see. I still remember when some Nintendo bigwig was wetting himself with pride over having invented a radial menu for Skyward Sword. A game that released in bloody 2011.

- Fanservice. Thank you for trying game, but if I want porn on my screen I shall look up some actual fucking porn. It's readily available and comes in every flavour I can imagine, and probably more than a few flavours that I can't imagine. And it won't have to involve creepily childlike characters of highly debatable age.

- Speaking of which, child characters. If they're there to appeal to actual children then the game clearly isn't for me. If they're there to appeal to me then the game is clearly shit.

- Shitty character designs. Okay, fine, this one's really subjective and not always true. But it seems to be the case more often than not.
 
Jan 27, 2011
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Silverbeard said:
Agarest: Generations of war...*snip*
0_o Holy...

Yeah, I heard the game got creepy with the generation system but THAT? That's just stupid-reality-show-we're-forcing-you-to-do level of creepy.
 

JamesGoblin

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My allergy is already so strongly developed that I even couldn't force myself to pay Guild Wars 2 (quite mild resemblance) for more than a week, due to "that" vibe it was constantly giving me.
 

SquallTheBlade

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NPC009 said:
Some of my favourites:
-The Shin Megami Tensei series put a heavy focus on gameplay and has some great, fast-paced turn-based battle systems that force the player to play efficiently. On top of that you get some seriously dark stories in which you get to decide which path human life will take after the apocalypse. The Persona games are more story oriented, but offer similar battle systems.
Personas battle system is very simplistic and I guess it works but it's nothing great. I tried Digital Devil Saga but just couldn't stomach the battle system.

-The Atelier series is best know for its crafting (which is super fun), but it's also the home of some great turn-based battle systems that allow you exploit turn order with items, flashy moves and more. If you're new to the series, I recommend trying either something from the Dusk series (these are relatively low on head deskingly Japanese entertainment cliches) or Mana Khemia, which is part of the Atelier series despite its name. It's actually a pretty funny game and the story packs some painful punches towards the end.
Tried them. The crafting system is indeed great but story and characters? Not so much.

-You're obviously already playing the Tales series, and while I wouldn't recommend any random installment to any random player, I honestly believe you can't go wrong with Symphonia, the Abyss and Vesperia.
I actually hated Symphonia. The battle system was so clunky compared to newer games that I just couldn't enjoy it. It's the only Tales of game which I haven't played mroe than once and I never will. It just shows that you HAVE to have engaging gameplay.

-Etrian Odyssey: challenging battles, and drawing perfect maps is just the best.
I've tried few DRPGs but they haven't been my thing for some reason. I might give EO a try someday.

I disagree. If you don't care about the story you're usually your wasting time playing story heavy games.
That's why I don't play story heavy games. And yes I play a lot of JRPGs but I play them for their unique battle systems, not because they have long stories.

Take something like the Tales series: battle systems are great, sure, but what the point of playing more than one if you don't enjoy character interaction and such?
Because of the new battle systems? They all their own unique mechanics that make them good. I enjoy trying them out, mastering them and finally beating the crap out of optional bossess. Character interactions are great at times but only story I've enjoyed so far has been in Xillia 2.

Plus, part of what makes the battles good is the context the story gives them.
Oh absolutely but it's not a requirement. You can do a lot with just good mechanics alone.
 

Arina Love

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Apr 8, 2010
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Pretty much never. Playing Yakuza 5 right now and it's most Japanese-ass Japanese game i've played. Everything from the atmosphere, fanservice filled hostess clubs to very melodramatic writing and cutscenes, love it all.

Just look at this glorious cutscene , now THAT i call entertainment!

https://youtu.be/RKR3_x1Wo6U?t=6m48s
 

Lightspeaker

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Dragonpit said:
Let me ask you this: why do you watch anime? I mean, sure, you can put up with the fanservice. It's possible to push past it. But is that what you looking to see? Me, I'm usually looking for some clever humor, a solid story, great animations, interesting characters, stuff like that. But while I can push past some pointless fanservice, it also holds true that I shouldn't have to.

But that's not to say fanservice can't work. It's possible to use it to push plot forward somehow, or develop relationships, or even define characters through their attitudes. But when I see some male character, perverted or otherwise, constantly forced into uncomfortable or sexual positions with girls of varying ages and dispositions, I can't help but feel I'm not so much watching anime, so much as I am watching someone's sexual fantasy. At least with hentai, that's the point...
Again, you are drastically, drastically missing the point. Fanservice doesn't have to have a 'reason'. It doesn't have to directly push the plot forward or develop relationships or whatever. It doesn't have to be "what want to see". Its part of setting the tone of the media; it needs no other 'reason' to exist.

Lets go completely the other way. Take...lets say Sunless Sea. Why do you transport things like crates of human souls in that? That's horrible. Why would you put that in when it could be any type of cargo, anything else other than that? Why do the monsters in it have to look so nasty/grotesque? It doesn't actually add anything to the gameplay or drive the story forward because all you do is shoot at them. What about the undead in Venderbight? Mechanically and story-wise they don't have much, if any, impact on the gameplay or story aside from a few minor details, they could just be normal people really.

All of those are simply things that add to the tone of the game. They add to the horrific, fearful atmosphere that permeates the entire thing. They don't HAVE to be in there. But they do. For their own reason. They're no more pointless than fanservice is. You just happen to not like fanservice, maybe it makes you uncomfortable or whatever, but that ISN'T the same thing as it being 'pointless'.


At risk of banging the drum overly much here you're still falling into the 'violence good, naughtiness bad' thing. Except you're framing it as "if a game has naughtiness in it then that is all it must be good for so they should drop the pretext, but a game can have violence in it and be about more than just that". Its not just you, several people in here are doing the same.

Not willfully, but its what you're doing. Think about Alien Isolation, what's it about? Surviving in a terrible, scary environment whilst being hunted. What happens? You fight your way past android opponents and try to avoid getting ripped apart by the Alien. Few people would say that Alien Isolation is about violence, but it is really. How about the Total War games? You raise armies and lead them to victory...which happens to involve slaughtering thousands on the battlefield. Its about violence...but no it isn't because its really a game about historical strategy and tactics. And yet you're all too willing to dismiss games which have fanservice as being nothing but the fanservice; because the fact that its in there at ALL means the game MUST be entirely about panty shots.
 

Loonyyy

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When it's that obnoxious "Japanese" stuff. Like, Japan isn't a monoculture, and it's kind of creepy how specific and razor focussed the stuff that a lot of geeky and nerdy people are on a very specific idea of what Japan is. The Japanophiles I know are precisely nothing like any Japanese person I've ever met, up to my Uncle's current partner. And yeah, you know, sometimes some of the comments and criticism laid at them isn't really that far off. It's fetishisation of a world that doesn't exist labelled as appreciation of another culture, through the accessible portal of amusing cartoons. It's like judging America by Transformers, Australia by Crocodile Dundee, and Britain by Blackadder.

Like, there's more to Japan than anime and manga. And honestly, that's sometimes interesting. I ended up watching a couple of random Japanese dramas at the local cinema, and they were interesting, and exactly nothing like anime. Look, I don't mind anime, although I do dislike a good chunk of what my long suffering friends subject me to, but there's this sort of rigid genre thing. The art style, plus a host of really strongly ingrained tropes and ideas that just keep being done, that seem to get the most focus, and there's more to Japan than that, really. Like really, Harem shows, that's just sad. lolsorandom, oh incest so funny, watch him squirm. Like, really? Are you the human equivalent of a tabloid? So I don't dislike Japanese games.

I dislike overly pandering anime games with poor, superfluous, or simply uninteresting gameplay, and especially those who insist on boring, pandering fanservice. Give me a real story, give me a real game, or give me a real spectacle. Anime, Japanese film, and Japanese games can all do that. It's a question if anyone even gives a fuck, because it seems like they'd rather see the next anime-disguised-as-a-game JRPG, soft core pornographic snoozefest, or awkward campfest.
 

Silverbeard

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infohippie said:
Well, I'll check it out at least. JRPGs are all too rare on the PC platform and since I don't own any consoles I tend to jump right into any PC ones I find.
This is true. I wonder how (or even if) the rarity of localized Japanese games on PC affects their reputation amongst the PC crowd.

aegix drakan said:
0_o Holy...

Yeah, I heard the game got creepy with the generation system but THAT? That's just stupid-reality-show-we're-forcing-you-to-do level of creepy.
It's a shame, too. From what I saw the female characters were actually quite well designed. No 12 year olds, no forced cuteness and a distinctly different personality to all of them.
Then came the Q&A shit and they who once were tough and capable women became clingy rags desperate for even a moment of the man's attentions.
 

Silverbeard

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Loonyyy said:
When it's that obnoxious "Japanese" stuff. Like, Japan isn't a monoculture, and it's kind of creepy how specific and razor focussed the stuff that a lot of geeky and nerdy people are on a very specific idea of what Japan is.
I'm especially partial to the claim that goes along the lines of "Thing X is popular in Japan because the samurai come from there!"
What, is every fucking Japanese man a descendant of the samurai?! Are they all attending iajutsu schools after school or something?
 

sageoftruth

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Eclipse Dragon said:
Part of me also wonders if Japanese audiences are even getting tired of these tropes.
Perhaps, but they'd never mention it. Wouldn't want to cause a scene.
 

wizzy555

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When is a game too ''Japanese'' for you?
When the game, upon crashing, screams about how it has dishonoured you and its developer and then impales itself on a tiny Katana.