Which is the bigger problem? Piracy or DRM?

[Delusibeta]

the longer they can keep a game from being crack the more money they can make(my original point in the graph you didn't understand)

As Ubisoft will tell you, this is rubbish.

Did the sale of there game increase after a crack was out?(no sales dropped)

Yes, most likely.

Then the DRM did its job

next time try reading up on a subject(or learn how to read the graph) before you try saying a point is invalid

No it didn't. My arguement is that once the crack was released, getting round the the DRM, sales probably increased. Ergo, the DRM did not do it's job. The DRM was irrelent on how many first-week sales there are, ditto how many people pirated it and applied less well working cracks. You're just trying to avoid admitting that you're wrong.

probably increased?
(figures plz)

You're the one arguing that more sales are gained when there's no crack compared to when there's an early crack. You get figures, and then find out that there's none and thus both of us are talking out our arses.

done see above post

Oh, the old R4 article. Remind me, what DS games was Nintendo promoting around the time of that article? What about the recession? Again, it's the "loads of downloads means loads of lost sales" fallacy being wheeled out again. No evidence. I like how you left the publisher quote uncredited.

No its not a loads of downloads/sales arguemnt

its sales before and after a crack(or in this case a chip) becomes available. IE:what you asked for

Again, not evidence. The problem with that is that there's loads reasons for a fall in DS sales, including the recession, the iPhone, used sales, lack of new AAA DS games etc. Just admit we're talking out of our arses and be done with it.

The R4 was released in 2007. Why does Nintendo complain about it in 2009/2010?

 

[direkiller]

Again, not evidence. The problem with that is that there's loads reasons for a fall in DS sales, including the recession, the iPhone, used sales, lack of new AAA DS games etc. Just admit we're talking out of our arses and be done with it.

so because there a ression people go out and buy an i-phone(yes i do believe you are talking out your ars)?

i gave an example(and a quote from a publisher) its nice if you find at least one to back up what your saying(might wanna start on torrent freak i don't know if they got anything but at-least do some footwork)

 

[Dastardly]

Well, when DRM is used to prevent a consumer exercising their right of, say... well, for example in Australia it's perfectly legal to make an archival/back-up copy of any media you've purchased then it does become an issue of conflicting rights. It's not a question of moral or immoral.

I guess here the problem comes in due to regional differences. If the software rights are held by a non-Australian company, why should they be held to Australian law? (I mention this because so many people are quick to point out the exact same thing in reference to American law).

But it might be that there are clauses in certain EULAs require the user to waive the right to make archival copies of that sort, instead. Things like that are hidden in all kinds of fine print for other things...

Yeah, I'd veered off purely software and gone into digital devices, which is were some of the worst DRM is encountered (glares at a certain company with the piece of fruit logo).

Oh, I hate Apple products. I prefer to be trusted to change my own goddamned batteries, for instance. But they're not doing anything wrong. Just annoying. They're guaranteeing returning customers by forcing a market for customer service. And that's why I choose not to do business with them. Working well for me so far.

Ah, but see, this is the problem where games publishers play silly buggers. If I've paid for a license to access software then if the physical media gets damaged I should still be fully able to access a copy of the software - bastards already have my money and a new digital version won't cost them a bloody cent but would most publishers say "oh hey, the disk is buggered? well, hey, here's a download code (or whatever) to get you back up and running!" No, they'd want you to pony up full cash again. Steam enabled titles are the most obvious exception to this, of course but for much of the rest of the industry they make it up as they go along as to whether the license to the software or ownership of the physical media the software is on is more important (ie, they choose based on which is to their advantage).

Which is to say that if publishers are going to insist that the software is entirely license based then they should always act that way instead of only when it's to their advantage.

I agree that companies should wish to support the product. The problem again is piracy. How can you demonstrate to them that the disc is damaged and no other copies were made? Plenty of people would burn a copy, crack the disc, mail it in, and get a new free disc (complete with new CD key). Unfortunately, those people screw it for the rest of us.

Instead of just allowing that, they use DRM as a workaround. By registering your CD key online, you're allowing them to verify that only one copy of each box sold is installed and in use at a time. If you have to reinstall it on another computer, there are usually means to contact them (though not always well-publicized means) and revoke the first to do the second. Either way, if people would engage the companies in dialog, they'd be more apt to find more friendly ways (like Steam has).

 

[Delusibeta]

(and a quote from a publisher)

What publisher?
I point to my edited post, specifically: The R4 was released in 2007. Why does Nintendo complain about it in 2009/2010?

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Downloads do not equate to sales. I really cannot understand why that is so hard to comprehend....

Because saying "LOST SALES!!!" is easier to generate negative opinion with than "people playing our shit without having paid for it!".

The former will get people sitting up to taking notice, the latter just makes people shrugs their shoulders in a "yeah but what can you do?" way.


Also, remember this is BUSINESS, where if your profits aren't as high as your projections you can claim the difference between the two numbers as a 'loss' and do so with a straight face.

 

[Trucken]

Piracy. It's the cause of DRM, therefore the bigger problem.

Fucking duh.

Fucking right. Action equals reaction. If you don't want to get punched in the face you shouldn't provoke someone into punching you.

 

[Popido]

Again, not evidence. The problem with that is that there's loads reasons for a fall in DS sales, including the recession, the iPhone, used sales, lack of new AAA DS games etc. Just admit we're talking out of our arses and be done with it.

so because there a ression people go out and buy an i-phone(yes i do believe you are talking out your ars)?

i gave an example(and a quote from a publisher) its nice if you find at least one to back up what your saying(might wanna start on torrent freak i don't know if they got anything but at-least do some footwork)

Do you have better version on this story? I tried to look around on this and it just states that their sales drop by 50% and on June 2009 software downloads were 238mil. And as Delusibeta said, R4 has been around for years. This whole thing is too blurry atm.

Also 50% is huge drop, I would expect to see this somehow affect the DS's gamers, but none them have even heard about R4.

Downloads do not equate to sales. I really cannot understand why that is so hard to comprehend....

Because saying "LOST SALES!!!" is easier to generate negative opinion with than "people playing our shit without having paid for it!".

The former will get people sitting up to taking notice, the latter just makes people shrugs their shoulders in a "yeah but what can you do?" way.


Also, remember this is BUSINESS, where if your profits aren't as high as your projections you can claim the difference between the two numbers as a 'loss' and do so with a straight face.

But it still doesnt mean that Downloads = Lost sale. I dont know much about business, but if they keep blaming their every failure on piracy they're going to bankrupt.

 

[direkiller]

(and a quote from a publisher)

What publisher?
I point to my edited post, specifically: The R4 was released in 2007. Why does Nintendo complain about it in 2009/2010?

2K Games' Martin Slater was who the quote was from http://www.gamespot.com/news/6183311.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=morenews&tag=morenews;title;2

(chips take longer to circulate then torrents simply because of accessibility)
and because that's when amazon and eBay stoped letting the chip be sold on there webpages

 

[incal11]

Yeah, it's all fine and good not to care about permissions when it's not your stuff being shared around.
When you decide that 'sharing culture' is more important than fair reimbursement for the creative talent's labour you're being just as scummy as many publishers are.

A sharing culture permits fairer rewards for talents, and I do pay for more than I would have if I hadn't been exposed to so much. Free access helps a lot for this, for example that's how psychonaut became a cult classic making tim Schaffer think of a sequel, and here is a practical example :
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,710976,00.html

 

[Anarchemitis]

Idea theft would be plagiarism, sharing data is not.

Piracy by way of copying digital property coping over Information Sharing Networks like torrents constitute methods of distribution that circumvent legal purchase and usage of properties like games.

No, copyrights were made by english printers to ensure a monopoly at the detriment of everyone's access to culture. The rest of the world used to work very well without this.

Whatever helps you sleep at night when you download games illegally, sweetheart.

 

[incal11]

Piracy. It's the cause of DRM, therefore the bigger problem.

right. Action equals reaction.

Maybe something that can't be solved is not a problem to begin with.
Overreaction in the form of sucky DRMs doesnt make the source of that reaction worse.

Piracy by way of copying digital property coping over Information Sharing Networks like torrents constitute methods of distribution that circumvent legal purchase and usage of properties like games.

...the law really says it's copyright infringement, not theft.

Whatever helps you sleep at night when you download games illegally, sweetheart.

Humanism is not a simple excuse, I sleep very well, and being insulting does not make you right.
Guess I cornered you good night.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Well, when DRM is used to prevent a consumer exercising their right of, say... well, for example in Australia it's perfectly legal to make an archival/back-up copy of any media you've purchased then it does become an issue of conflicting rights. It's not a question of moral or immoral.

I guess here the problem comes in due to regional differences. If the software rights are held by a non-Australian company, why should they be held to Australian law? (I mention this because so many people are quick to point out the exact same thing in reference to American law).

They shouldn't per se, although they should at least comply with Australian law if they want to do business here. However, the fact is they have no legal recourse when Aussies start pulling things apart and disabling DRM so that they CAN exercise their consumer rights. Console manufacturers have tried to stomp on that several times here and except in very specific circumstances they've always gone home with their tails between their legs. Yes, I laughed and I don't even own a console.

But it might be that there are clauses in certain EULAs require the user to waive the right to make archival copies of that sort, instead. Things like that are hidden in all kinds of fine print for other things...

Doesn't matter. EULAs you can only read after purchase are worthless here... not to mention under Australian law it's very, very hard to waive a legal right outside of criminal law.

Yeah, I'd veered off purely software and gone into digital devices, which is were some of the worst DRM is encountered (glares at a certain company with the piece of fruit logo).

Oh, I hate Apple products. I prefer to be trusted to change my own goddamned batteries, for instance. But they're not doing anything wrong. Just annoying. They're guaranteeing returning customers by forcing a market for customer service. And that's why I choose not to do business with them. Working well for me so far.

Oh, they have every legal right to be dicks. My point was that Apple gadgets are loaded with DRM designed to give them massive amounts of control over content and service. They are the posterboys for artificial restrictions on use of their devices, a company that thrives of their own DRM.

Ah, but see, this is the problem where games publishers play silly buggers. If I've paid for a license to access software then if the physical media gets damaged I should still be fully able to access a copy of the software - bastards already have my money and a new digital version won't cost them a bloody cent but would most publishers say "oh hey, the disk is buggered? well, hey, here's a download code (or whatever) to get you back up and running!" No, they'd want you to pony up full cash again. Steam enabled titles are the most obvious exception to this, of course but for much of the rest of the industry they make it up as they go along as to whether the license to the software or ownership of the physical media the software is on is more important (ie, they choose based on which is to their advantage).

Which is to say that if publishers are going to insist that the software is entirely license based then they should always act that way instead of only when it's to their advantage.

I agree that companies should wish to support the product. The problem again is piracy. How can you demonstrate to them that the disc is damaged and no other copies were made? Plenty of people would burn a copy, crack the disc, mail it in, and get a new free disc (complete with new CD key). Unfortunately, those people screw it for the rest of us.

Ah, yes, 'how can you demonstrate...' etc. Well see, here's the thing, the burden of proof is on the accusing party (in this case the Publisher accusing customers of doing shady shit) in most Western nations.

Besides, now with digital content delivery they don't have to be such pricks about things like that, with Steam being a prime example.

 

[direkiller]

Again, not evidence. The problem with that is that there's loads reasons for a fall in DS sales, including the recession, the iPhone, used sales, lack of new AAA DS games etc. Just admit we're talking out of our arses and be done with it.

so because there a ression people go out and buy an i-phone(yes i do believe you are talking out your ars)?

i gave an example(and a quote from a publisher) its nice if you find at least one to back up what your saying(might wanna start on torrent freak i don't know if they got anything but at-least do some footwork)

Do you have better version on this story? I tried to look around on this and it just states that their sales drop by 50% and on June 2009 software downloads were 238mil. And as Delusibeta said, R4 has been around for years. This whole thing is too blurry atm.

Also 50% is huge drop, I would expect to see this somehow affect the DS's gamers, but none them have even heard about R4.

Downloads do not equate to sales. I really cannot understand why that is so hard to comprehend....

Because saying "LOST SALES!!!" is easier to generate negative opinion with than "people playing our shit without having paid for it!".

The former will get people sitting up to taking notice, the latter just makes people shrugs their shoulders in a "yeah but what can you do?" way.


Also, remember this is BUSINESS, where if your profits aren't as high as your projections you can claim the difference between the two numbers as a 'loss' and do so with a straight face.

But it still doesnt mean that Downloads = Lost sale. I dont know much about business, but if they keep blaming their every failure on piracy they're going to bankrupt.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/100118-Nintendo-Blames-Piracy-For-Huge-European-Sales-Drop escapist was nice and did a reprint

 

[Popido]

2K Games' Martin Slater was who the quote was from http://www.gamespot.com/news/6183311.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=morenews&tag=morenews;title;2

(chips take longer to circulate then torrents simply because of accessibility)
and because that's when amazon and eBay stoped letting the chip be sold on there webpages

He was about to get attacked by an invisible enemy, or so he assumed. To prevent this he build a wall. People were not happy about this because it complicated their lives, but the man insisted that it was necessary to prevent him being invaded by an invisible enemy. After 13 days the wall suddently fell apart, but the man was happy coz it atleast protected him for 13 days. The end.

I, I guess the whole point of this all was that hes happy now?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/100118-Nintendo-Blames-Piracy-For-Huge-European-Sales-Drop escapist was nice in did a reprint

Theres nothing new on this. :<

If these are all the facts about this, then they're just stating that Download = Lost sale...

 

[Delusibeta]

(and a quote from a publisher)

What publisher?
I point to my edited post, specifically: The R4 was released in 2007. Why does Nintendo complain about it in 2009/2010?

2K Games' Martin Slater was who the quote was from http://www.gamespot.com/news/6183311.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=morenews&tag=morenews;title;2

(chips take longer to circulate then torrents simply because of accessibility)
and because that's when amazon and eBay stoped letting the chip be sold on there webpages

Doesn't really explain why they blamed the R4 for a fall in sales that happened "in recent months". I remain convinced that was Nintendo blaming piracy for a planning failure. Sure, their consoles were blown open by hackers. Ditto the 360, I don't hear Microsoft complaining about piracy.

As for that quote, yes it was 2K, but they seem to have moved on to Steamworks, one of the easiest to crack DRMs out there. The quote now rings hollow in hindsight.

I could go on pointing out the flaws in your argument, but frankly I can't be bothered.

 

[jpoon]

Piracy is a bigger problem but DRM to me is a much more severe annoyance, to the point where I won't buy games that do use the stricter forms of it.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Free access helps a lot for this, for example that's how psychonaut became a cult classic making tim Schaffer think of a sequel

Yes, think of a sequel... but not start on it without gaining publisher backing first. Which is more or less saying he's not going to make it until he's paid to make it, which is fair enough IMO. Problem is finding a publisher with enough confidence in the game concept, the developer, and, most importantly, the market to pony up the cash to get Schaffer starting the whole thing. The one thing most Publishers AREN'T interested in are games that will become Cult Classics if most of the sales come from bargain bins years after the games release... and certainly not if most of the people lauding the game never owned a legitimate copy in the first place.

 

[incal11]

The one thing most Publishers AREN'T interested in are games that will become Cult Classics if most of the sales come from bargain bins years after the games release... and certainly not if most of the people lauding the game never owned a legitimate copy in the first place.

Cult classics are a good source if exploited properly, and we can trust someone we know is talented to do that right. Will he find a publisher ? It's too early to say he really cannot, time will tell.

 

[direkiller]

(and a quote from a publisher)

What publisher?
I point to my edited post, specifically: The R4 was released in 2007. Why does Nintendo complain about it in 2009/2010?

2K Games' Martin Slater was who the quote was from http://www.gamespot.com/news/6183311.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=morenews&tag=morenews;title;2

(chips take longer to circulate then torrents simply because of accessibility)
and because that's when amazon and eBay stoped letting the chip be sold on there webpages

Doesn't really explain why they blamed the R4 for a fall in sales that happened "in recent months". I remain convinced that was Nintendo blaming piracy for a planning failure.

As for that quote, yes it was 2K, but they seem to have moved on to Steamworks, one of the easiest to crack DRMs out there. The quote now rings hollow in hindsight.

I could go on pointing out the flaws in your argument, but frankly I can't be bothered.

what flaws you said a bunch of made up stuff about a graph i posted
then went on to hypothetical mumbo jumbo

if that's what you believe(that sales go up when there is no DRM).seeing that's a big argument for drm free games the statistic for that should be out there.

You need number to back up what your saying and to counter mine(the burden of proof is on you).