Which is the bigger problem? Piracy or DRM?

[Delusibeta]

Ubisoft desired to go with DRM after POP was heavy pirated. Despite all the stink about there intrusive DRM they are still using DRM. If it makes them more money to not have the DRM then why are they still using it? Simple it must effect there bottom line in a positive manner.

Hmmm... Ubisoft annual report, middle of page 12 [http://www.ecobook.eu/ubisoft/ra2010uk/index.html]. Proportion of PC game sales: 8%, down from 9% in the previous financial year. I think you're wrong on that count, I think it's more a vain attempt to make their continuing investment not seem like a complete waste in the eyes of their shareholders.

The problem with this argument is that one thing matters more to the rates of piracy and sales than anything else: hype. The three articles listed contain what many consider as examples of the finest indie games and deals in the industry. Of course there's going to be more piracy and of course there's going to be more legit copies sold.

My problem with quoting "download figures" from torrents is: Download started does not equal download finished. But even a started download adds one to the "downloaded" counter. Hell, just downloading the .torrent file a deleting it adds one to the download counter. It is unreliable evidence. (As for the World of Goo figures, while I respect them more since you have to actually finish the download to get counted, I would not cast aside multiple accounts in the game, like they did. For example, I have two scores on the high-score board. Should I be counted as one pirate?)

 

[direkiller]

Ubisoft desired to go with DRM after POP was heavy pirated. Despite all the stink about there intrusive DRM they are still using DRM. If it makes them more money to not have the DRM then why are they still using it? Simple it must effect there bottom line in a positive manner.

Hmmm... Ubisoft annual report, middle of page 12 [http://www.ecobook.eu/ubisoft/ra2010uk/index.html]. Proportion of PC game sales: 8%, down from 9% in the previous financial year. I think you're wrong on that count, I think it's more a vain attempt to make their continuing investment not seem like a complete waste in the eyes of their shareholders.

The problem with this argument is that one thing matters more to the rates of piracy and sales than anything else: hype. The three articles listed contain what many consider as examples of the finest indie games and deals in the industry. Of course there's going to be more piracy and of course there's going to be more legit copies sold.

My problem with quoting "download figures" from torrents is: Download started does not equal download finished. But even a started download adds one to the "downloaded" counter. Hell, just downloading the .torrent file a deleting it adds one to the download counter. It is unreliable evidence. (As for the World of Goo figures, while I respect them more since you have to actually finish the download to get counted, I would not cast aside multiple accounts in the game, like they did. For example, I have two scores on the high-score board. Should I be counted as one pirate?)

The numbers listed are not reliable as a piracy figure i will give you that.It still doesn't change the fact that indi games are heavy pirated


As for Ubi soft( i think we can agree the DRM on AC2 was very bad)

Assassin Creed 2 had a 32% increase in sales overall compared to AC I (page 8)
1,088,000 AC at 9%- about 98000 PC sales
1,600,000-AC 2 at 8%- 128,000 PC sales

so despite the very bad DRM the total PC sales went up for similar games

 

[Souplex]

Ubisoft desired to go with DRM after POP was heavy pirated. Despite all the stink about there intrusive DRM they are still using DRM. If it makes them more money to not have the DRM then why are they still using it? Simple it must effect there bottom line in a positive manner.

Hmmm... Ubisoft annual report, middle of page 12 [http://www.ecobook.eu/ubisoft/ra2010uk/index.html]. Proportion of PC game sales: 8%, down from 9% in the previous financial year. I think you're wrong on that count, I think it's more a vain attempt to make their continuing investment not seem like a complete waste in the eyes of their shareholders.

The problem with this argument is that one thing matters more to the rates of piracy and sales than anything else: hype. The three articles listed contain what many consider as examples of the finest indie games and deals in the industry. Of course there's going to be more piracy and of course there's going to be more legit copies sold.

My problem with quoting "download figures" from torrents is: Download started does not equal download finished. But even a started download adds one to the "downloaded" counter. Hell, just downloading the .torrent file a deleting it adds one to the download counter. It is unreliable evidence. (As for the World of Goo figures, while I respect them more since you have to actually finish the download to get counted, I would not cast aside multiple accounts in the game, like they did. For example, I have two scores on the high-score board. Should I be counted as one pirate?)

The numbers listed are not reliable as a piracy figure i will give you that.It still doesn't change the fact that indi games are heavy pirated


As for Ubi soft( i think we can agree the DRM on AC2 was very bad)

Assassin Creed 2 had a 32% increase in sales overall compared to AC I (page 8)
1,088,000 AC at 9%- about 98000 PC sales
1,600,000-AC 2 at 8%- 128,000 PC sales

so despite the very bad DRM the total PC sales went up for similar games

If we're doing extremes...
World of Goo's DRM method consisted of asking people nicely not to steal it. It was a small independent developer, (Two people) so there was no argument of sticking it to the man, and it only cost like $5 U.S. It experienced a +90% piracy rate.

 

[direkiller]

Ubisoft desired to go with DRM after POP was heavy pirated. Despite all the stink about there intrusive DRM they are still using DRM. If it makes them more money to not have the DRM then why are they still using it? Simple it must effect there bottom line in a positive manner.

Hmmm... Ubisoft annual report, middle of page 12 [http://www.ecobook.eu/ubisoft/ra2010uk/index.html]. Proportion of PC game sales: 8%, down from 9% in the previous financial year. I think you're wrong on that count, I think it's more a vain attempt to make their continuing investment not seem like a complete waste in the eyes of their shareholders.

The problem with this argument is that one thing matters more to the rates of piracy and sales than anything else: hype. The three articles listed contain what many consider as examples of the finest indie games and deals in the industry. Of course there's going to be more piracy and of course there's going to be more legit copies sold.

My problem with quoting "download figures" from torrents is: Download started does not equal download finished. But even a started download adds one to the "downloaded" counter. Hell, just downloading the .torrent file a deleting it adds one to the download counter. It is unreliable evidence. (As for the World of Goo figures, while I respect them more since you have to actually finish the download to get counted, I would not cast aside multiple accounts in the game, like they did. For example, I have two scores on the high-score board. Should I be counted as one pirate?)

The numbers listed are not reliable as a piracy figure i will give you that.It still doesn't change the fact that indi games are heavy pirated


As for Ubi soft( i think we can agree the DRM on AC2 was very bad)

Assassin Creed 2 had a 32% increase in sales overall compared to AC I (page 8)
1,088,000 AC at 9%- about 98000 PC sales
1,600,000-AC 2 at 8%- 128,000 PC sales

so despite the very bad DRM the total PC sales went up for similar games

If we're doing extremes...
World of Goo's DRM method consisted of asking people nicely not to steal it. It was a small independent developer, (Two people) so there was no argument of sticking it to the man, and it only cost like $5 U.S. It experienced a +90% piracy rate.

That was one of the games we were talking about if you read back a bit i linked 3 articles talking about the piracy rates on indie games
(he was just stateing pulling stats from torrent download counter is unreliable)

 

[Gindil]

what flaws you said a bunch of made up stuff about a graph i posted
then went on to hypothetical mumbo jumbo

if that's what you believe(that sales go up when there is no DRM).seeing that's a big argument for drm free games the statistic for that should be out there.

You need number to back up what your saying and to counter mine(the burden of proof is on you).

Alright. Let's look at some hard statistics:

Nintendo DS in US - $169.99 for a DSi XL

Price in Europe - Link [http://news245.com/nintendo-ds-and-nintendo-ds-xl-lowered-its-price-in-the-u-s/110854.htm] - ? 176.95 to ? 161.95 = $282.39 - $258.35 give or take a few cents.

This is the price, Right now.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that's damn expensive for a handheld. No wonder their numbers slid so much. The piracy is just an excuse.

 

[direkiller]

what flaws you said a bunch of made up stuff about a graph i posted
then went on to hypothetical mumbo jumbo

if that's what you believe(that sales go up when there is no DRM).seeing that's a big argument for drm free games the statistic for that should be out there.

You need number to back up what your saying and to counter mine(the burden of proof is on you).

Alright. Let's look at some hard statistics:

Nintendo DS in US - $169.99 for a DSi XL

Price in Europe - Link [http://news245.com/nintendo-ds-and-nintendo-ds-xl-lowered-its-price-in-the-u-s/110854.htm] - ? 176.95 to ? 161.95 = $282.39 - $258.35 give or take a few cents.

This is the price, Right now.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that's damn expensive for a handheld. No wonder their numbers slid so much. The piracy is just an excuse.

game sales(so people who already had a DS)

 

[Gindil]

what flaws you said a bunch of made up stuff about a graph i posted
then went on to hypothetical mumbo jumbo

if that's what you believe(that sales go up when there is no DRM).seeing that's a big argument for drm free games the statistic for that should be out there.

You need number to back up what your saying and to counter mine(the burden of proof is on you).

Alright. Let's look at some hard statistics:

Nintendo DS in US - $169.99 for a DSi XL
Price in Europe - Link [http://news245.com/nintendo-ds-and-nintendo-ds-xl-lowered-its-price-in-the-u-s/110854.htm] - ? 176.95 to ? 161.95 = $282.39 - $258.35 give or take a few cents.

This is the price, Right now.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that's damn expensive for a handheld. No wonder their numbers slid so much. The piracy is just an excuse.

game sales(so people who already had a DS)

\

Ok...

Linkage [http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/21139]

also Linkage [http://gamrfeed.vgchartz.com/story/82589/highlights-from-nintendos-corporate-briefing/]

I'm pretty sure that if the price is too high, then people won't buy a new DS. From the looks, they've been buying the older models at the cheaper price. Again, when the DS games already cost 80-90 dollars US, people are going to rethink about purchasing something.

 

[direkiller]

what flaws you said a bunch of made up stuff about a graph i posted
then went on to hypothetical mumbo jumbo

if that's what you believe(that sales go up when there is no DRM).seeing that's a big argument for drm free games the statistic for that should be out there.

You need number to back up what your saying and to counter mine(the burden of proof is on you).

Alright. Let's look at some hard statistics:

Nintendo DS in US - $169.99 for a DSi XL
Price in Europe - Link [http://news245.com/nintendo-ds-and-nintendo-ds-xl-lowered-its-price-in-the-u-s/110854.htm] - ? 176.95 to ? 161.95 = $282.39 - $258.35 give or take a few cents.

This is the price, Right now.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that's damn expensive for a handheld. No wonder their numbers slid so much. The piracy is just an excuse.

game sales(so people who already had a DS)

\

Ok...

Linkage [http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/21139]

also Linkage [http://gamrfeed.vgchartz.com/story/82589/highlights-from-nintendos-corporate-briefing/]

I'm pretty sure that if the price is too high, then people won't buy a new DS. From the looks, they've been buying the older models at the cheaper price. Again, when the DS games already cost 80-90 dollars US, people are going to rethink about purchasing something.

games(as in the cartage you stick in the back not the DS itself) cost about $20

Assuming everyone's DS dint just flat out break the numbers say the same or go up for number of DS's owned(so the starting price is not an issue). People were also buying the games before that(else the sales would not have dropped as much).

Yes outer factors can contribute to people not buying games. but unless they raised the price of the cartridges and people stopped buying them because of it your point doesn't factor in because they were buying games just a few month earlier.

 

[Gindil]

what flaws you said a bunch of made up stuff about a graph i posted
then went on to hypothetical mumbo jumbo

if that's what you believe(that sales go up when there is no DRM).seeing that's a big argument for drm free games the statistic for that should be out there.

You need number to back up what your saying and to counter mine(the burden of proof is on you).

Alright. Let's look at some hard statistics:

Nintendo DS in US - $169.99 for a DSi XL
Price in Europe - Link [http://news245.com/nintendo-ds-and-nintendo-ds-xl-lowered-its-price-in-the-u-s/110854.htm] - ? 176.95 to ? 161.95 = $282.39 - $258.35 give or take a few cents.

This is the price, Right now.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that's damn expensive for a handheld. No wonder their numbers slid so much. The piracy is just an excuse.

game sales(so people who already had a DS)

\

Ok...

Linkage [http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/21139]

also Linkage [http://gamrfeed.vgchartz.com/story/82589/highlights-from-nintendos-corporate-briefing/]

I'm pretty sure that if the price is too high, then people won't buy a new DS. From the looks, they've been buying the older models at the cheaper price. Again, when the DS games already cost 80-90 dollars US, people are going to rethink about purchasing something.

games(as in the cartage you stick in the back not the DS itself) cost about $20

Assuming everyone's DS dint just flat out break the numbers say the same or go up for number of DS's owned(so the starting price is not an issue). People were also buying the games before that(else the sales would not have dropped as much).

Yes outer factors can contribute to people not buying games. but unless they raised the price of the cartridges and people stopped buying them because of it your point doesn't factor in because they were buying games just a few month earlier.

It's $30 dollars for the games. But it makes no sense to buy a game if you don't already have the console. Since it's such an investment to put all of the money into a DS (or DSi), then why would people sink money into the cartridge?

Furthermore, Nintendo has an effective monopoly on the handheld market which is being ignored. The PSP is basically dead, and no one else has stepped in to try to compete with the 20 year behemoth. What the last two years of decline have suggested is that the price of the European model DS is too expensive. In this market, the games are complimentary goods, not substitutes. If one is too expensive, why would people pay for it? That's why I'm convinced that we'll hear about a price drop in Europe soon. As my second link says:

The fact that, with the proliferation of such devices, Europe has become the market where illegal copies have spread most widely among all the advanced nations in the world must have affected the change in the size of the entire European market. However, given the fact that some Nintendo DS software titles are selling very well in Europe even today, it is too premature to conclude that the illegal copies are the sole reason.

Some perspective. I am well aware of the proliferation of games outside of copyright laws. But blaming everything on the chip is kind of a lopsided battle, especially when everyone knows that a download does NOT equal a lost sale. If you look at it in this manner, you'll be doing exactly what the MPAA or RIAA are doing which is running to the government for enforcement. That's not going to solve the problem. What will is understanding your customers in a market and catering to them, which Nintendo isn't doing in Europe, period. If the chip is getting more popular, and people aren't buying your product, that means you've made a black market for it. Best thing is to stop price gouging and drop it. I'm failing to see how that isn't getting through.

 

[Timmibal]

Where ever you managed to read me saying that DRM stopped piracy in the few words I said, I would love to know.

I know DRM doesnt stop piracy. If it did, pirates wouldnt still be an issue and we wouldnt have fiasco's like Ubisoft and AC2. However, because of piracy, DRM was created.

And before you look at JUST games, why not look at the music industry, which introduced DRM long before "Project $10". They didnt do that to "control" how you listened to what was on the cd, they did it in a vein attempt to stop losing money.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you said DRM stops piracy, it clearly doesn't. What I was trying to point out is the assumption that DRM was a reaction in response to piracy is a little difficult to believe when it even seem to focus entirely on hampering resale, not preventing piracy.

 

[OrokuSaki]

Are we talking about games or piracy in general? Because in the case of games I honestly believe that DRM is a lot worse than piracy (And not just because I hate all groups of organized people). I mean, all the crap that it takes to actually pirate a game...... it's not as easy as it sounds and really to some extent it's the reward for understanding what the original hacker wrote.
But DRM seems like a punishment for doing the right thing and actually BUYING the digital object in question. I mean, when people are scouring the internet for illegal ways to get around the protection on software that the ALREADY BOUGHT, that's when you have to wonder if you're doing the right thing.
So yeah, my views on piracy aside, some protection is a good thing, it validates having bought the software. But too much security results in computer-smashing frustration.
Note: I made little paragraphs because I find massive walls of text intimidating and thought that if I broke it up into smaller chunks it's more likely to get read.

 

[direkiller]

Some perspective. I am well aware of the proliferation of games outside of copyright laws. But blaming everything on the chip is kind of a lopsided battle, especially when everyone knows that a download does NOT equal a lost sale. If you look at it in this manner, you'll be doing exactly what the MPAA or RIAA are doing which is running to the government for enforcement. That's not going to solve the problem. What will is understanding your customers in a market and catering to them, which Nintendo isn't doing in Europe, period. If the chip is getting more popular, and people aren't buying your product, that means you've made a black market for it. Best thing is to stop price gouging and drop it. I'm failing to see how that isn't getting through.

If you read back a few of my post you will see a nice explanation of despite 1 download not equal to one sale it is still lost income if there reservation price was above the cost of makeing the game and transporting it to the store.(its the one with the supply demand graph)


As for the drop of 50% yes i don't think all of it is due to piracy too. However some/most of it is due to piracy.
I only linked it as an article for before and after sales when some sort of crack was available. As a point that sales drop after you have the option to pirate a game.

Its also why i linked the world of goo article earlier to show innovative indie games with no DRM still are heavily pirated.(Despite what people say)

 

[Gindil]

Some perspective. I am well aware of the proliferation of games outside of copyright laws. But blaming everything on the chip is kind of a lopsided battle, especially when everyone knows that a download does NOT equal a lost sale. If you look at it in this manner, you'll be doing exactly what the MPAA or RIAA are doing which is running to the government for enforcement. That's not going to solve the problem. What will is understanding your customers in a market and catering to them, which Nintendo isn't doing in Europe, period. If the chip is getting more popular, and people aren't buying your product, that means you've made a black market for it. Best thing is to stop price gouging and drop it. I'm failing to see how that isn't getting through.

If you read back a few of my post you will see a nice explanation of despite 1 download not equal to one sale it is still lost income if there reservation price was above the cost of makeing the game and transporting it to the store.(its the one with the supply demand graph)


As for the drop of 50% yes i don't think all of it is due to piracy too. However some/most of it is due to piracy.
I only linked it as an article for before and after sales when some sort of crack was available. As a point that sales drop after you have the option to pirate a game.

Its also why i linked the world of goo article earlier to show innovative indie games with no DRM still are heavily pirated.(Despite what people say)

And yet, the humble indie bundle (which also included World of Goo) made over $1 million+ despite heavy piracy. What I'm not seeing is how a number of people's individual choices is supposed to also equal lost income for a business.

There are still places where the price is too high. Also that money goes elsewhere in the economy. Say the $30 is used by a teenager to buy new clothes. Or the it could be used as a trip to a concert. The money was spent, just not in the games industry. And as I've said before, this is a competition. Not only is it a number of businesses competiting, it's also the developers competing for their customer's time. And what has happened is that people can experiment with the games then decide to buy them and support the industry.

People do make these choices. Judging from the fact that the entire industry has grown regardless of piracy just convinces me that it's still not a huge problem and will continue to not be in the future. Oh, and almost every year during the summer months, it tends to get slow for all console video gamers. Taxes are April (huge surge in impulse purchases) and summer is when people travel.

 

[Gamegodtre]

Oh, so money is the problem?

Why not just steal a car instead of paying for it?

Piracy - excuses for it are pathetic.

a pirate against piracy???????????
whats the world coming to lol
but on a serious note Of course Piracy is a problem for game companies and DRM is just painful to everyone

 

[direkiller]

And yet, the humble indie bundle (which also included World of Goo) made over $1 million+ despite heavy piracy. What I'm not seeing is how a number of people's individual choices is supposed to also equal lost income for a business.

There are still places where the price is too high. Also that money goes elsewhere in the economy. Say the $30 is used by a teenager to buy new clothes. Or the it could be used as a trip to a concert. The money was spent, just not in the games industry. And as I've said before, this is a competition. Not only is it a number of businesses competiting, it's also the developers competing for their customer's time. And what has happened is that people can experiment with the games then decide to buy them and support the industry.

People do make these choices. Judging from the fact that the entire industry has grown regardless of piracy just convinces me that it's still not a huge problem and will continue to not be in the future.

The industry had a 10% downturn for the past 2 years (19% total reduction in sales sense 2008) resulting in lost jobs.

Its not that hard to understand. but here is an example. Starcraft 2 cost $60 when it first comes out. You don't want to pay more then $30 so you don't buy it right away. As the price drops more people will buy the game(theres a few people who are not willing to pay over $55,$45 and so on, so basically as time goes on they get the customer base that was willing to wait to pay a lower price). However if a crack comes out before they run the entire range of prices people who were going to buy the game when it gets down to $30 don't because they have it for free. That is were the lost income comes into play not for the people willing to pay full price for a game but the people willing to buy it 6months from now for $30.

Oh, and almost every year during the summer months, it tends to get slow for all console video gamers.

04/20/2010 is when that article came out summer had nothing to do with it

Also the HIB was for charity so the high piracy rates on that just goes to show how little people care.

 

[direkiller]

D-d-d-double post

 

[MarcFirewing]

They're both equal. One causes the other. Piracy causes DRM, DRM causes more Piracy, more Piracy causes more DRM. It's repetitive and will completely recycle. -.treading lightly on this topic.-