Who are the good guys in Skyrim?

[evilneko]

-snip-

I guess you missed the part about Ulfric being but a pawn in the Thalmor's game. The Thalmor made him, the Thalmor will unmake him.

Empire + slaughtering every Thalmor I find all the way.

 

[Frostwhisper21]

So Glad this wasn't black and white like it would be in a Bioware game(Well i suppose they've gotten somewhat better with Dragon Age).

I'd say they're both somewhat flawed... kinda draws parallels to the Revolutionary War if you're American-Freedom in your home country from the imperialist power, but with touches of racism and prejudice and other civil rights problems from early USA, or you can support the imperial power who want to try and maintain their version of order.

 

[ComradeJim270]

I don't think there are any.

An attempted pawn. Amusingly enough, the Thalmor shot themselves in the leg with that one. (No, I'm not making an arrow/knee joke, damnit.) I find a rather delicious irony in that they are responsible for the very weapon that will annihilate them.

I don't know about that. Skyrim is stronger standing alongside the Empire than on its own. The Thalmor wanted Ulfric to fight the Empire because either he'd keep the Legion busy in Skyrim and continually inflict losses on them, or he'd win, and they could finish off the three human nations one at a time rather than taking them on all at once. Either possibility benefits them. Their worst-case scenario would be a unified Empire. Even if Ulfric made an alliance with the Empire, the civil war itself was good for the Thalmor because of the losses in trained, motivated fighters on both sides.

 

[Muphin_Mann]

I don't think there are any.

An attempted pawn. Amusingly enough, the Thalmor shot themselves in the leg with that one. (No, I'm not making an arrow/knee joke, damnit.) I find a rather delicious irony in that they are responsible for the very weapon that will annihilate them.

I don't know about that. Skyrim is stronger standing alongside the Empire than on its own. The Thalmor wanted Ulfric to fight the Empire because either he'd keep the Legion busy in Skyrim and continually inflict losses on them, or he'd win, and they could finish off the three human nations one at a time rather than taking them on all at once. Either possibility benefits them. Their worst-case scenario would be a unified Empire. Even if Ulfric made an alliance with the Empire, the civil war itself was good for the Thalmor because of the losses in trained, motivated fighters on both sides.

Actually Ulfric winning is also bad. The Thalmor benefit no matter what, but the outcome they want is an endless and draining stalemate.

Empire Wins -- Skyrim and its hardy warrior people are oppressed (good for thalmor) but empire now has them as soldiers and stays unified (bad)

Stormcloaks Win -- Skyrim loses the protection of the empire (bad) but the strongest and most physicaly remote anti-thalmor nation (skyrim) is now a soveriegn state.

 

[CobraX]

Warning possible spoilers!

Out of the two waring factions who do you see as the good guys; the Stormcloaks or the Imperials?

Personally, I'm not sure who the good guys are. The Stormcloaks seem a little racist to me (Example: the grey elves in the grey part of town) and the Imperials are restricting a groups religious beliefs which seems equally bad to me. (Example: the ban on Talos worship) Anyway, I haven't decided who to join with yet because I feel morally conflicted, so I thought I would see what you guys think.

The Imperials are shown to only be biding their time, rebuilding their armies and preparing for a future great war against The Thalmor. The only thing the Stormcloaks are doing is wasting The Empire's Resources, besides later in the story you (SPOILER/SPOILER for Main Story) Can find the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak (Stormcloak Leader) which lists him as a "Thalmor Asset" and that after the great war he feed infomation (Concerning the empire) to them and The Thalmor consider him an Emergency Asset, possibly even a Sleeper agent, of a sort. AND If you play through the Stormcloak Story line you find (SPOILER FOR REBELLION QUEST LINE) That Ulfric is a pompous ass Who had The Stormcloaks before he even started the Rebellion, it was originally a private militia of his, he then used The Ban Of Talos Worship (WHICH THE EMPIRE WAS FORCED TO DO BY THE THALMOR) as a rallying point and a recruitment tool to build his army and raise a Rebellion. At the end of the Stormcloaks Quest line it becomes quite clear that Ulfric was only ever interested in being High King, he doesn't have Skrim's interests at heart. Not to mention The Thalmor are secretly aiding the Stormcloaks (According to the Dossier) as the turmoil/civil war serves their interests as The Thalmor are planning a future war against the empire and the War is helping weaken the Empire for the next war.

Also The only reason the ban on Talos worship is now being enforced is BECAUSE of the Stormcloak's - Before they made a stink about it, It wasn't enforced. But now that their making a big deal about it the Empire has to enforce it to keep The Thalmor happy. NOT to mention through out the Stormcloaks Quest line you meet many Empire Higher Ups who worship Talos. The ban is only in place o keep the Thalmor at bay while The empire prepares to fight back in the Future war to come. The only things the Sormcloaks are doing is Causing turmoil and unnecessary pain in Skyrim, Killing Empire Supporters/Soldiers, dividing Skyrm, and being douches. Also their Racist. INCREDIBLY RACIST

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE! Support the empire and you support the future war on the Thalmor/ Support the Stormcloaks and you support a false power hungry king, racism, and a divided and weak Skyrim.

Needless to say SUPPORT THE EMPIRE, JOIN THE LEGION.

Apologies for Spelling/Grammar Mistakes, I wrote this in a hurry.

 

[Alaster Angelo]

The Imperials need to win, if they don't then the Thalmor will come and ruin Skyrim's shit. How are the Stormcloaks going to defeat the Thalmor once the Imperials are defeated? They won't. They'll be slaughtered with no one but themselves to blame.

It's funny how the Empire didn't really enforce the ban on Talos (so long as you didn't announce it to the whole world you were fine) until the Stormcloaks starting shouting to the heavens about it.

EDIT: Then again, I'm a high elf so I don't really care.

 

[duchaked]

I showed my friend the Zero Punctuation review for Skyrim, and we had a good laugh...then realized how true it all was. We found ourselves both playing the game (on separate TVs...and systems lol) in the same room simultaneously, and both realized quickly what jerks the rebels are. I actually accidentally went with the Imperial soldier dude having gotten turned around in the fiery apocalypse and turned to the first sign of shelter. Not sure the Imperial/Alliance guys are "good" but at least they were quite nice to me (if one were to ignore the opening "hey let's cut off his head cuz...he was standing near the rebels?" bit) lol

 

[Vault101]

I only started last night...

in all the conufsion during the dragon attack I ran away with the imperials (accidently) even though I dont know which side.....I hope my side isnt already chosen

quite frankly though I DID NOT want to have to attack the stormcloaks to escapse..in fact I really dont want to choose a side..this isnt my war, and as far as wars go its sadly all too realistic..neither side is completley good and both have good human beings that you'll hav to kill

(is there anyway to remain neutral? AND actually finish the main questline?)

 

[Gromril]

The Stormcloaks are the last good guys in Skyrim. That they're somewhat racist and Ulric is an arrogant asshole speaks more of just how ridiculously bad the rest of the factions are if the Stormcloaks are the good guys.

Basically, the Imperials are disgustingly weak and naive, holding on to something dead and decaying just because they are too cowardly and weak to create something new. The Aldmeri Dominion killed the Empire, it's just not bled out yet. The only chance Skyrim and the Nords have is to quickly destroy every stronghold and support mechanism the Empire has in Skyrim, ruthlessly and mercilessly eradicate all Imperial taint in the lands, then close the mountain passes before the Dominion comes along.

Once those passes are shut down, just a few men can keep armies at bay. A few men with a Dragonborn and his Dragon ally on their side? Skyrim will be impregnable.

When the Empire surrendered and even gave up Talos worship, it lost all right to exist. It most certainly lost all rights to Skyrim, where weakness like that would mean certain death in the grim northern lands. No... in Skyrim, you get to choose between different evils... and the lesser evil would be the Stormcloaks and Ulfric.

Oh, and Ulfric needs to quickly and quietly ally himself with the Dark Brotherhood. Give safe passage, safehouses and resources to the Brotherhood across Skyrim and in return gain the ability to ensure the quick and silent death of any Thalmor supporter, Imperial supporter or other weaklings that could sprout in Skyrim.

"Close the passes"? You see that big ass stretch of widely undefended coast to skyrims north? Yeah, so would the elves. Those crazy bastards have boats too.

 

[ComradeJim270]

Actually Ulfric winning is also bad. The Thalmor benefit no matter what, but the outcome they want is an endless and draining stalemate.

Empire Wins -- Skyrim and its hardy warrior people are oppressed (good for thalmor) but empire now has them as soldiers and stays unified (bad)

Stormcloaks Win -- Skyrim loses the protection of the empire (bad) but the strongest and most physicaly remote anti-thalmor nation (skyrim) is now a soveriegn state.

Yes, Ulfric winning is bad. I said that.

I'm saying there's no positive side to a Stormcloak victory. The easiest way for the Thalmor to win is if this happens, then they finish off the weakened empire, then Hammerfell. At that point, they effectively have the resources of the entire continent at their disposal and could finish off Skyrim at their leisure. They could easily win through attrition alone. It would take a while, but Altmer are perfectly fine with taking decades or even centuries to acheive their goals.

A swift and decisive Imperial victory would be a setback for them. If the Empire and Hammerfell could then put aside their differences and agree to either reunify or establish a solid military alliance, it would turn into their worst-case scenario. Then they'd have to simultaneously contend with the highly-skilled warriors of Hammerfell, and with a larger, better-equipped Imperial Legion composed not just of Cyrodiils but also of Nord warriors, Breton mages, and led by Imperial strategists...

 

[Yvl9921]

The Stormcloaks are VERY obviously the bad guys. I've played the game from both sides now, and with the Stormcloaks in charge, the economy is in ruins because nobody buys from non-Nords, people are driven from their homes, and worst of all, it's implied that the Altmer will invade and subjugate them regardless of their victory.

The empire's not perfect, but they maintain a competent government, and keep the Altmer at bay.

So yes, for the first time in entertainment history, the Empire are the good guys, the rebels are the bad guys.

 

[ComradeJim270]

"Close the passes"? You see that big ass stretch of widely undefended coast to skyrims north? Yeah, so would the elves. Those crazy bastards have boats too.

They wouldn't even need to. While you can't fly in Oblivion or Skyrim, the ability of magic users to levitate is established in the lore of the series. The Aldmerri Dominion is a nation ruled by mages. The Thalmor could just float right over the mountains.

 

[LongAndShort]

The Stormcloaks quickly came off as a bunch of racist bastards following an egotistical dick who murdered a fairly decent bloke to make a point and who had caused most of the problems that Skyrim was facing, including stirring up agitation which forced the Empire to clamp down on what was otherwise tolerated Talos worship.
Seriously, Ulfric was a shithead and I felt as satisfied gutting him with my dark elf as I have any other virtual character.

 

[Joccaren]

Stormcloaks, for the good of Skyrim and all men.

Lets look at the big picture here:
-The Empire is lead by Cyrodiil.
-Cyrodiil was hit hard in the Oblivion Crisis AND the Great War
-Cyrodiil is now draining other nations resources to sustain itself.
-Cyrodiil ditched Hammerfell, kicking them out of the Empire as they refused to submit to the Thalmor. You know what happened? Hammerfell kicked Thalmor ass and won back its entire territory. Cyrodiil sat and watched.
-The Majority of the Empire's Strength came From Skyrim and Hammerfell, with mages coming from High Rock. The Empire has already ditched Hammerfell, leaving purely Skyrim to defend it. This means Skyrim's warriors, combined with High Rock's mages admittedly, have to defend Cyrodiil, High Rock and Skyrim from Thalmor invasion (Which is almost certainly coming).
-Looking at my last point, you may be thinking "Wasn't the Empire Bigger?". Yes, they were. Now, after the great war, all that is left of the Empire is the failing Cyrodiil, Skyrim (Untouched by the war) and High Rock (Presumed untouched by the war).
-Jarl Elisif is useless. She has no clue whatsoever how to govern her hold, and would be the obvious choice of High Queen of Skyrim if you win for the Imperials. Her ADVISORS do a better job then her. She wanted to send an entire battalion of troops into a somewhat suspicious cave (Admittedly that would have been a good idea after finding out what was in there, but since she had no clue all that she had done was make a very poor tactical decision).
-Currently the Thalmor have infiltrated the entire Empire, and exert their will over it without opposition. The take high-priority prisoners who hold information they want. Who's to say that high ranking soldier in the Imperial army doesn't worship Talos? They might think he does, they will not be opposed, they will take him in and interrogate him, and learn everything he knows about the Empire's tactical standpoints and plans. Not good for the Empire. Liberate Skyrim, that is less information they have, and less influence. The Empire IS biding its time before attacking the Thalmor, but I'm pretty sure the Thalmor know this, and are prepared.
-Ulfric, contrary to popular belief, is a good leader. If he were not, how would he get 1/2 of Skyrim on his side? He is Charismatic and a warrior. He knows how to get Nords to flock to his word, and will successfully lead them in battle. He has mastered FUS RO DAH, and would be able to use that in a battle against the Thalmor to great advantage.
-Stormcloaks are not racist, merely Xenophobic. And with good reason. Look at recent events: Thalmor invade the empire and start the Great War, Dunmer blow up one of their large cities, and Argonians attack them from the south. Kahjit are the only known source of Skooma, which ruins the lives of those who consume it. It is only their fellow man that they can trust, or so they feel. If one of the other races proves they are different than what the Nords think of their kind, and support Ulfric's cause, they get respect though.
-Not all Stormcloaks are Xenophobic. Some are, but go to other Holds under Stormcloak rule, and not everyone will be oppressing other races. Quite often, everyone will be equal, and the Jarl will even sometimes oppose Ulfric, though believe in his cause.
-Ulfric is not out ONLY to take the Throne. He would like the throne, but when given the option to simply take it, he insists on having the Jarls commune and have a moot to decide the king. He cares more about Nord tradition than being king.
-Ulfric's Dossier heavily implies that, whilst they used to be able to easily control him, the Thalmor are quickly loosing their grasp over him. A good thing, compared to the Empire where their grasp is still strong.
-Once independent, Skyrim stands in a perfect position to ally itself with Hammerfell. After that, it is likely High Rock will rebel too. Sadly, this will spell a temporary end to Cyrodiil. However, with all of the Empire's main military might, still untouched by the war (Really, the empire only surrendered because they were going to lose their home territory, not because they didn't have the manpower to drive back the Thalmor. See Hammerfell's resistance), the Thalmor are pretty much Screwed. ONE nation managed to drive them back. What could THREE do?


This is the same sort of thing that comes in with that 'find the redguard woman' quest. The redguard woman IS in the wrong, and a Thalmor spy. She states that she is being hunted for speaking out against the Thalmor, but as I stated above, Hammerfell kicked out the Thalmor and almost EVERYONE in it spoke out against them. The men claim they are hunting a traitor who, during the great war, sold out the secrets that led to the fall of one of their great cities. This event actually happened in the great war, and when the two stories and truths are compared, it is almost certain that she was a traitor.
(In case you don't follow my logic: She claims to be hunted for speaking out against the Thalmor. Hunted by Redguards. In reality, Redguards hate Thalmor. If she were hunted by them, it would not be because she spoke out against the Thalmor, more likely she would be protected because of that. This means she is very likely lying. The Redguards claim she sold out secrets leading to the fall of one of their cities. That city actually fell during the great war, and it was a blow to the Redguards. Nothing in their story can be confirmed as a lie. Considering the Redguards managed to push the Thalmor out when they were defending that city, it is unlikely they would have managed to take it without some sort of help. As such, it is likely that the woman is lying to you about speaking out against the Thalmor, and is also possible that she is the traitor who lead to the fall of that city. Meanwhilst, it is unlikely that she is telling the truth, and possible that she was not the traitor. She also labels herself a princess, which begs the question: Where is her personal guard, and why is she not protected against assassins?. It doesn't add up.)

 

[Joccaren]

Nords[/b]. Though, I do think it would be interesting to play a Dark Elf and assist the Stormcloaks, and see how that turns out.

Yes, Skyrim was the first Nord settlement in Tamriel.
No, Ulfric is not a Thalmor pawn. He was captured, interrogated, and broken. From their, they manipulated him into instigating the Markarth incident, but after that he stopped responding to them. This implies that he realised what they were doing, and is now firmly shut against them. The Thalmor believe that it may still be possible for direct contact to work as a last resort, but how are they even going to get to Ulfric through crowds of Stormcloaks, and even then it is unlikely he will listen to them after his experiences with them.
Their xenophobia (Not racism) is fully grounded in reality. Look at world events and there is a strong reason to hate almost every non-man race, and a small reason to hate the Kahjit.
Thalmor and High Elves: In case you don't remember, they recently invaded and basically conquered the empire. I would be fearful and hateful of them to in that situation.
Dunmer: Recently caused a large volcanic eruption in an event known as the 'Red Year'. After the oblivion crisis, they were invaded by Nords and Orcs (Reason 1 for Nords not liking them, they were at war). During this invasion, Vivec Disappeared. This left the ministry of truth unstable. Dunmer Engineers created a device that used a living soul to keep the ministry aloft. The lover of the voluntary giver of the soul decided to 'save' her soul by shutting off the machine. This caused the ministry to crash into Vivec city, destroying it and causing Red Mountain to erupt. I do not know the dates of this and the great collapse of Winterhold, but it is possible they are related. Either way, causing a massive volcanic eruption and destroying one of their own cities is hardly a good way to make the Nords like them. They just come off as dangerous to be around.
Argonians: Now invading Morrowind. After Morrowind, who's next? Skyrim?
Kahjit: Only known producers of Skoomer. Skoomer ruins the lives of those who consume it. It is much like a normal person being uneasy about an illegal drug dealer who specialises in highly addictive drugs with bad withdrawl symptoms.

As for the Imperials, they're not banning the worship of Talos simply because they can, despite the Stormcloak's belief that the Empire is trying to oppress the people of Skyrim simply to show them who's wearing the pants around this place. They did it so they could get the Thalmor to back off, at least long enough to regroup their strength. That isn't to say that it justifies their giving in to the Thalmor's demands, but the Empire is only doing what it believes best in order to free Skyrim from the Thalmor altogether.

I think both are noble in their own rights.

The Empires intent is noble, but it does not have the strength to carry it out. The Thalmor have infiltrated all three of the remaining Imperial Nations (Cyrodiil, Skyrim, High Rock) thanks to the rights granted to them by the White Gold Concordate. I highly doubt they would ignore that advantage. More likely they are using it to gather information about high priority targets (See Diplomatic Immunity) and the Empire as a whole for when they Counter-invade the Empire (A highly possible scenario considering the Thalmor's grasp on the empire, and their free ability to interrogate anyone they wish without question).

 

[ComradeJim270]

@Joccaren

The Imperial government is indeed biding its time, and the Thalmor definitely know that, but the Imperials know that they know it. But we don't know how privy the Thalmor are to the highest levels of government, and if they would see any attack coming, it had better be one hell of an attack. Having Skyrim in the Empire would help tremendously.

As for Hammerfell... The Empire didn't have the ability to defend both Hammerfell and Cyrodiil at the same time, so they chose to protect the latter. This is probably better than losing both, which would be the likely alternative. Losing Cyrodiil would have crippled Imperial logistics, possibly beyond repair. There's a saying about logistics that goes something like: tactics win battles, strategy wins campaigns, logistics win wars.

Ulfric cares about Nord tradition? No he doesn't. If you listen to him after he gives his victory speech, he implies that he's just allowing the moot to name him high king to legitimize his power grab. Also, supporting the Empire is kind of a Nord tradition in and of itself.

Ulfric is a strong leader? Well that's ok for the Thalmor, they have the patience to wait for him to die, and the cunning to exploit Skyrim's politics after he does. Speaking of leadership, Cyrodiil is known for producing the best strategists and tacticians in Tamriel... exactly the kind of people you'd want in command while fighting the Thalmor.

Also, under no circumstances are the Thalmor "screwed". IIRC, the Summerset Isles have been successfully invaded a grand total of one time, and that was by probably the greatest general in the history of Tamriel, at the command of all the people and all the resources of the mainland, and using a giant death robot.

 

[Joccaren]

I have completed the civil war quest line with an overpowered Warrior in the name of the Empire. The way I look at it I would rather be supporting the empire (With their flaws) than the Stormcloaks, who are batshit crazy Nazi's. I mean, Ulfric has been described as "Himmler wearing fur" for a reason (The Nazi's loved the Vikings, its one of the main reasons we have not seen very many viking games), I will not be supporting tall, blond haired, blue eyed racists in any game (I even feel a tad bad about playing as the Wehrmarcht in CoH, both of my grandfathers fought in the war). So yeah. I sided with the Empire (But I am now playing a neutral mage who does not intend to side with either faction)

1. Not all Stormcloaks are like Ulfric, see the other Stormcloak holds. Some think Ulfric is an idiot, but believe in his cause, some think he is a legend and believe in his cause. I have not, however, seen any other Stormcloak hold with slums for non-Nords. Only Winterhold.
2. Ulfric is not racist, merely Xenophobic. Read through my other posts and his dossier about his history, and recent events in Tamriel, and his xenophobia can be fair. There is little that the other races have done recently that wouldn't make others nervous.

In NV I sided with the NCR. I like them. They do everything for the greater good. Sure, they are corrupt as hell and they have all of the military acumen of a child, their generals are wasteful and sorta retarded and they have a bit of a russian feel about them where military matters are concerned (Their most readily replaceable commodity is people. Conscripts.) but they are sure as hell better then a bunch of thugs. You need order and stability for people to survive, even if that order comes in the shape of a failing corrupt democracy that does not care about the little people that fall through the cracks.

Here is the thing. If Ulfric wins, Skyrim will have the same amount of order as if the Empire wins. Why? Nord Tradition. If the empire refuses to acknowledge the Jarl's moot and Skyrim's own election of her High King, I can foresee another war about that. If it accepts it, the same thing that would happen if Ulfric had won would happen: A moot would be called to elect the new high king. After that, Skyrim would be united, and each Jarl would govern their hold much as they are governing it now. No less order than before. All that would change is that Cyrodiil and High Rock would be without Skyrim, who would be in a great position to then ally with Hammerfell against the Thalmor.

Although the choice is much easier in Skyrim. The Stormcloaks are a bunch of isolationist, racist pricks, based on the Nazis, that only care about themselves. Hell, even the Blacksmith in Riverwood states that it was never really a problem about the Talos worship thing until the Stormccloaks made it a problem, till the stormcloaks made people THINK it was a problem. The Empire might not be strong, it might not be particularly nice, but if Skyrim goes up in flames then every single province might try and go up in flames. And then the elves will win overall.

Now here is where I say no.
The Stormcloaks are not Nazis.
Lets, as step one, compare the actions of each group:
Stormcloaks:
Distrust other races, but permit them to live in their cities. In one hold, they are given a lesser status. Nobody is executed because of their race, nor whether they think Ulfric is right or wrong (So long as they don't go to activively support the Empire I'd assume)
Imperials:
Public executions of those who believe differently to them (Roggvir. What he did was perfectly within Nord tradition, yet he was executed because it meant the Imperials wouldn't win the war outright.)
Agents roaming the land executing anyone of a certain religious sect (Similar to the Gestapo going around executing any Jews)

Tell me who are the Nazi's here?

Then, you state that Nords are based of Nazis, with the explanation that Nazi's liked Vikings. I'm sorry, but a viking race in a viking game is going to be viking because they are vikings, not because it makes them more like a Nazi. Simply because one sect likes something, does not mean that everything made about it after that is meant to imply similarity to that sect.

Yes, some Stormcloaks are xenophobic - with a reasonable reason to be. No, that does not make them based off Nazis. It makes them xenophobic. I'd compare them to North Korea more than the Nazis, with the Empire being more Nazi than the Stormcloaks.

 

[thespyisdead]

i am leaning towards stormcloaks... apparently:

Spoiler

when you meet the imperial general, he says he is sorry for trying to execute you, and it must have been an error, please join us