Oh Boy! I love it when I get a point by point post to play with.
Joccaren said:
Stormcloaks, for the good of Skyrim and all men.
Lets look at the big picture here:
You have me enthralled, considering I made a fairly large post about this earlier with the opposite viewpoint. Let us begin my friend.
-The Empire is lead by Cyrodiil.
Irrefutable. Except that, Tiber Septim was from Atamora (the home of the proto-nords) and spent his youth in Skyrim. Tiber Septim, or General Talos as he was also known, joined the command of Emperor Cuhlecain, who's desire was to unite the Empire again. The Emperor's army was Cyrodiilic, and met the combined armies of High Rock and Skyrim in battle. The Skyrim forces actually joined the Cyrodiilic army when they saw Tiber Septim use his Thu'um.
(A great deal of this comes from the Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition: Cyrodiil)
-Cyrodiil was hit hard in the Oblivion Crisis AND the Great War
Er...not so much. The Oblivion crisis was over two hundred years before. While the damage to the Empire was wide ranging in effects, Cyrodiil itself was not affected terribly. It has certainly recovered from the damage of the Oblivion Crisis.
-Cyrodiil is now draining other nations resources to sustain itself.
Evidence please. I'm not saying it's wrong, but I am saying that Cyrodiil really doesn't have any other nations to "drain."
-Cyrodiil ditched Hammerfell, kicking them out of the Empire as they refused to submit to the Thalmor. You know what happened? Hammerfell kicked Thalmor ass and won back its entire territory. Cyrodiil sat and watched.
True and false. What happened is that Cyrodiil began negotiating a peace settlement after their capital had been captured and retaken. The Emperor realized that his forces were severely depleted after the battle of the Red Ring, despite managing to defeat the Aldemeri forces. By the time that Hammerfell rejected the peace treaty, the Empire's hands were tied. They could fight another bloody war which they were definitely not ready for, or they could cut ties with Hammerfell. I'm not saying they were necessarily right, but if you look at it from the Empire's point of view, they would've been sacrificing hundreds or thousands of soldiers, dealing with a depressed economy and destroyed agricultural and industrial centers, and ultimately no guarantee of victory. I would've made the same choice.
-The Majority of the Empire's Strength came From Skyrim and Hammerfell, with mages coming from High Rock. The Empire has already ditched Hammerfell, leaving purely Skyrim to defend it. This means Skyrim's warriors, combined with High Rock's mages admittedly, have to defend Cyrodiil, High Rock and Skyrim from Thalmor invasion (Which is almost certainly coming).
Hold it, what? Imperial Forces were certainly helped by Skyrim and Hammerfell, but they were by no means the majority. Bosmer and Dunmer of Valenwood and Morrowind have traditionally held posts in the Imperial Legion. On top of that, only Cyrodiilic and Skyrim forces are noted as having been present at the battle of the Imperial City. The reason Hammerfell fared so well is generally accepted as due to vast numbers of Veteran Legionaries from Hammerfell, that stayed behind, despite orders to the contrary. Cyrodiilic and Skyrim forces were the brunt of the army that retook the Imperial City during the battle of the Red Ring.
-Looking at my last point, you may be thinking "Wasn't the Empire Bigger?". Yes, they were. Now, after the great war, all that is left of the Empire is the failing Cyrodiil, Skyrim (Untouched by the war) and High Rock (Presumed untouched by the war).
Despite this, when a war with the Thalmor arises, the sides will be drawn on who is Thalmor and who is Anti-Thalmor. If Skyrim breaks away, Cyrodiil will probably become a Vichy state to the Aldemeri. If the Empire keeps Skyrim, though, they score a fairly major victory, prove they're not dead, which will mean that Cyrodiil, bolstered by recent victories and Skyrim's help, will not be in a position to be toppled by the Thalmor so easily.
-Jarl Elisif is useless. She has no clue whatsoever how to govern her hold, and would be the obvious choice of High Queen of Skyrim if you win for the Imperials. Her ADVISORS do a better job then her. She wanted to send an entire battalion of troops into a somewhat suspicious cave (Admittedly that would have been a good idea after finding out what was in there, but since she had no clue all that she had done was make a very poor tactical decision).
Ok, lets be honest, generally the reason that leaders have advisors is because they're not particularly well suited to lead, especially in terms of Monarchies. The leaders are hereditary, so their leadership is not merit based. The advisors' leadership, on the other hand, is. They've proven that they have good decision making capabilities. The mark of a good Jarl is probably not their personal reasoning skills, but their ability to pick good advisors and listen to said advisors.
-Currently the Thalmor have infiltrated the entire Empire, and exert their will over it without opposition. The take high-priority prisoners who hold information they want. Who's to say that high ranking soldier in the Imperial army doesn't worship Talos? They might think he does, they will not be opposed, they will take him in and interrogate him, and learn everything he knows about the Empire's tactical standpoints and plans. Not good for the Empire. Liberate Skyrim, that is less information they have, and less influence. The Empire IS biding its time before attacking the Thalmor, but I'm pretty sure the Thalmor know this, and are prepared.
Sure, but then...lets be honest, there's very little evidence that torture brings good information. Even Ulfric Stormcloak (who was broken and gave information to the Thalmor) held out long enough for the information to be useless to them (it WAS useless, but they told him that it wasn't). Torture isn't reliable.
-Ulfric, contrary to popular belief, is a good leader. If he were not, how would he get 1/2 of Skyrim on his side? He is Charismatic and a warrior. He knows how to get Nords to flock to his word, and will successfully lead them in battle. He has mastered FUS RO DAH, and would be able to use that in a battle against the Thalmor to great advantage.
Ulfric is a fairly good leader, I'll give you that. He's certainly got all the attributes that are required, and demonstrates prowess in both personnel and strategic decisions. That being said, he is not indispensable by any means. His use of the Thu'um is impressive, but not unattainable, and the root of many of his greatest victories were from the Dragonborn (and subsequently the Empire's, should the Dragonborn side with the Empire). Ultimately, I think the Dragonborn's abilities would certainly be of far greater use in the coming war, and I have no doubt that both the Stormcloaks and Empire recognize that.
-Stormcloaks are not racist, merely Xenophobic. And with good reason. Look at recent events: Thalmor invade the empire and start the Great War, Dunmer blow up one of their large cities, and Argonians attack them from the south. Kahjit are the only known source of Skooma, which ruins the lives of those who consume it. It is only their fellow man that they can trust, or so they feel. If one of the other races proves they are different than what the Nords think of their kind, and support Ulfric's cause, they get respect though.
While I won't dispute that the Stormcloak's racism is not to the extent that some make it out to be (seriously, guys, they aren't Nazis or even close), it is still racism in many cases, which is discrimination based on race. The Elves of the Grey Quarter are a perfect example of this. I'm not saying that this makes them inherently evil. Frankly the Stormcloaks can be pretty affable, so long as you're willing to accept their dogma, but that doesn't change that they ARE racist. Another point: The Dunmer didn't blow up their city, the Nevarine, by destroying the Heart of Lorkhan, caused the destruction of the city. Not something the Dunmer wanted or caused. I just wanted to make that point, because it's not really fair to put the destruction on the heads of the Dark Elves. I'm nitpicking, now, though, because honestly I agree with this point. Well made and correct, in my opinion.
-Not all Stormcloaks are Xenophobic. Some are, but go to other Holds under Stormcloak rule, and not everyone will be oppressing other races. Quite often, everyone will be equal, and the Jarl will even sometimes oppose Ulfric, though believe in his cause.
Agreed, but I can't see how this is really a point for or against the Stormcloaks. Their dogma requires an inherent Xenophobia, which is often carried over into racism. Sure they're not all bad, but not all of them have to be for this to be a problem.
-Ulfric is not out ONLY to take the Throne. He would like the throne, but when given the option to simply take it, he insists on having the Jarls commune and have a moot to decide the king. He cares more about Nord tradition than being king.
He cares about appearances, and for good reason. If a Nord took the throne without the moot, he might have problems with his legitimacy being questioned down the road. It's the same reason that Lyndon B. Johnson insisted on having his inauguration while Airforce One was still on the ground, so no one could accuse him of not being inaugurated on American soil. The moot is a done deal, there's no chance of anyone else being picked, all it is is a show to make sure that there are no questions of legitimacy later.
-Ulfric's Dossier heavily implies that, whilst they used to be able to easily control him, the Thalmor are quickly loosing their grasp over him. A good thing, compared to the Empire where their grasp is still strong.
That's not quite true. Ulfric isn't exactly an asset to them, but the civil war weakens the Empire, which is why he's listed as one. It's not that he's a Thalmor, or even sympathetic to the Thalmor, it's that he's doing their work for them, by killing Legionaries. On the other hand, their grasp on the Empire is not as strong as you imply. If it were, the Empire would not be gearing up to fight another war with the Thalmor, as is implied by the Imperial ending.
-Once independent, Skyrim stands in a perfect position to ally itself with Hammerfell. After that, it is likely High Rock will rebel too. Sadly, this will spell a temporary end to Cyrodiil. However, with all of the Empire's main military might, still untouched by the war (Really, the empire only surrendered because they were going to lose their home territory, not because they didn't have the manpower to drive back the Thalmor. See Hammerfell's resistance), the Thalmor are pretty much Screwed. ONE nation managed to drive them back. What could THREE do?
Look at it this way, if Skyrim wins, they end the empire. The war becomes Skyrim, Hammerfell, and High Rock, with support from resistance groups in Valenwood and Cyrodiil, versus the Summerset Isles, and Elswyr with token support from Cyrodiil and Valenwood, and possible support from Black Marsh. On the other hand, if the Empire wins, they score a major victory, showing people that they are still a force to be reckoned with. The Empire, being Skyrim, High Rock, and Cyrodiil would go up against the Thalmor. Hammerfell isn't about to spit in the Empire's eye, despite their perceived betrayal, because of the age old axiom, "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend." Hammerfell, High Rock, Skyrim, and the newly invigorated Cyrodiil, plus help from resistance forces in Valenwood and possible help from Morrowind (due to their historical Imperial leanings) versus the Summerset Isles and Elswyr, with token support from Valenwood. Black Marsh wouldn't even come into the equation in the second scenario, due to Morrowind's Imperial sympathies causing them trouble.
This is the same sort of thing that comes in with that 'find the redguard woman' quest. The redguard woman IS in the wrong, and a Thalmor spy. She states that she is being hunted for speaking out against the Thalmor, but as I stated above, Hammerfell kicked out the Thalmor and almost EVERYONE in it spoke out against them. The men claim they are hunting a traitor who, during the great war, sold out the secrets that led to the fall of one of their great cities. This event actually happened in the great war, and when the two stories and truths are compared, it is almost certain that she was a traitor.
This is the problem I have with subjectivity. You can claim that you believe one side or the other, but that doesn't make you right. Without evidence, neither side can be fully trusted, and while ultimately the decision I made was the same as yours, it doesn't at all make me right. It forces me to choose a side, to make a decision, without all of the evidence being brought before me. If I were to be a juror debating the woman's guilt with ONLY the evidence that was presented, I would not ever be able to find her guilty. There's simply not enough proof.
(In case you don't follow my logic: She claims to be hunted for speaking out against the Thalmor. Hunted by Redguards. In reality, Redguards hate Thalmor. If she were hunted by them, it would not be because she spoke out against the Thalmor, more likely she would be protected because of that. This means she is very likely lying. The Redguards claim she sold out secrets leading to the fall of one of their cities. That city actually fell during the great war, and it was a blow to the Redguards. Nothing in their story can be confirmed as a lie. Considering the Redguards managed to push the Thalmor out when they were defending that city, it is unlikely they would have managed to take it without some sort of help. As such, it is likely that the woman is lying to you about speaking out against the Thalmor, and is also possible that she is the traitor who lead to the fall of that city. Meanwhilst, it is unlikely that she is telling the truth, and possible that she was not the traitor. She also labels herself a princess, which begs the question: Where is her personal guard, and why is she not protected against assassins?. It doesn't add up.)
Again, I follow your logic, but let me pose this to you. If the Thalmor wanted to capture one of their chief critics in Hammerfell, someone who's leadership had helped push them out, and they wanted to do it in the Imperial province of Skyrim, who's people have a known hatred of the Thalmor, what better way than to hire a group of Redguard Mercenaries (which is what they are, make no mistake, they are mercs)? That way you have both a plausible story, and you don't deal with the issues of the Skyrim people defending this woman.
I admit that the theory has flaws, but so does the Redguard mercenary's story. One that jumped at me was simply, why send a mercenary group? I can of course see the benefit, in that the group may be able to follow her more readily than an actual law group, but surely the Redguards could have used the anti-Thalmor sentiments of their Skyrim brethren to extradite her capture. The fact that they make no attempt to appealing to the Jarl seems suspect to me.
Generally, I agree with your outcome. I turned her over as well. That being said, I never felt quite right about it, and I would not be able to properly defend my decision to turn a conceivably innocent woman over to men who I do not know and who have no legal credentials. For all I know, they stunned her, carried her out into the wild, and stabbed her to death, or worse. I choose to believe that they stunned her, took her into custody, and returned to Hammerfell for her to face trial, but I have no confirmation of that.
